EK: Lies...Damn Lies...and EK Management
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EK: Lies...Damn Lies...and EK Management
DEC Salaries
Interesting...from the "Fleet Newsletter":
"...DEC's come in at a pay level of Dhs 28,000-32,000 per month based on experience, with the higher number being reserved for those with direct fleet experience..."
Congratulations to Mr. Ed for coming clean on this issue. However, on the "Rumour Buster" on the flight crew portal we find the following:
"I am happy to correct the rumour that you have heard. There are no 'various pay schemes'. The salary you quote is right (26210/- per month to be exact) but there are no additional "Professional Allowance" payments of any kind made to DECs. I hope that this dispels some of the wilder rumours that have been going around".
TCAS 21/2/06
Hmmm...looks like you've been caught out being somewhat economical with the truth TCAS.
"Be careful when you choose to lie...for that lie must remain truth forever more."
Interesting...from the "Fleet Newsletter":
"...DEC's come in at a pay level of Dhs 28,000-32,000 per month based on experience, with the higher number being reserved for those with direct fleet experience..."
Congratulations to Mr. Ed for coming clean on this issue. However, on the "Rumour Buster" on the flight crew portal we find the following:
"I am happy to correct the rumour that you have heard. There are no 'various pay schemes'. The salary you quote is right (26210/- per month to be exact) but there are no additional "Professional Allowance" payments of any kind made to DECs. I hope that this dispels some of the wilder rumours that have been going around".
TCAS 21/2/06
Hmmm...looks like you've been caught out being somewhat economical with the truth TCAS.
"Be careful when you choose to lie...for that lie must remain truth forever more."
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I promised myself to stay away from this forum but recent events have made my blood boil...
We begin with TCAS assurances that DECs were not being paid more than the rest of us. This turns out to be an absolute LIE.
We continue with the abuse of the FOM to upgrade pilots out of seniority to the cost of over 20 pilots. It is a scandle that a document such as the FOM has been debased by the management to the extent that it has, a document that can be thrown at us when they need to and changed by them when they want to.They have cheated their 'colleagues' from the upgrades they deserve which, if they cannot be spared from the 330/340 fleet due to 'their' poor planning, they should at the very least be provided pass-over pay to compensate for the loss of earnings they will incur.
How can the management expect any respect from their staff when they lack any moral stature or professional ethics themselves? They do whatever they are told to do and have the audacity to patronise us with a half hearted explanation of why it can all be justified
TCAS and Ed know damn well that this behaviour would never be accepted in their previous companies yet they have the temerity to look us in the eyes and lie.
We begin with TCAS assurances that DECs were not being paid more than the rest of us. This turns out to be an absolute LIE.
We continue with the abuse of the FOM to upgrade pilots out of seniority to the cost of over 20 pilots. It is a scandle that a document such as the FOM has been debased by the management to the extent that it has, a document that can be thrown at us when they need to and changed by them when they want to.They have cheated their 'colleagues' from the upgrades they deserve which, if they cannot be spared from the 330/340 fleet due to 'their' poor planning, they should at the very least be provided pass-over pay to compensate for the loss of earnings they will incur.
How can the management expect any respect from their staff when they lack any moral stature or professional ethics themselves? They do whatever they are told to do and have the audacity to patronise us with a half hearted explanation of why it can all be justified
TCAS and Ed know damn well that this behaviour would never be accepted in their previous companies yet they have the temerity to look us in the eyes and lie.
Last edited by Marooned; 9th Jun 2006 at 09:45.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
Ask me how I know...
This ties in with the DEC thread that you started on this forum a few months ago that you very quickly deleted when one of your colleagues from Oz pointed out that you had made something of a career of jumping seniority lists.
No axe to grind, just observing.
More lies " cant spare any MFF guys to go to Boeing",,,have a look at the guys on ground school for the 777 at the moment....Could have sworn I have flown with them on the 340....must be my eyes..Do the "management" think we are as stupid as we look? Do they think that we don't talk to each other?Do they think that showing little graphs make lying more acceptable? Do they think?????
Most, if not all of the guys off to 777 are 330/340, a few have been here 3 years so do not have recent command time, WTF ..
JUst had a look at the PORTAL, 10 guys either in or about to start grounschool for 777, all 340...enough to make you ?????
They seem to be pleased that the resignations have tailed off a bit, bet they are in for a shock when this latest masterstroke filters thro'
MR ED and TCAS....The Two Ronnie's of EK.
Maybe a letter to MR ED would help??, there must be a FOM extract that says "In the face of being caught out on a complete untruth, just deny everything"
Most, if not all of the guys off to 777 are 330/340, a few have been here 3 years so do not have recent command time, WTF ..
JUst had a look at the PORTAL, 10 guys either in or about to start grounschool for 777, all 340...enough to make you ?????
They seem to be pleased that the resignations have tailed off a bit, bet they are in for a shock when this latest masterstroke filters thro'
MR ED and TCAS....The Two Ronnie's of EK.
Maybe a letter to MR ED would help??, there must be a FOM extract that says "In the face of being caught out on a complete untruth, just deny everything"
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Wizofoz.
Bit touchy, aren't you?
Making something of a career of deleting your post's as well. Lucky that I quoted the pertinent bit.
EK guys, look out for an Ozzie from Orangeland with heaps of European narrowbody time joining as a DEC this summer.
Bit touchy, aren't you?
Making something of a career of deleting your post's as well. Lucky that I quoted the pertinent bit.
EK guys, look out for an Ozzie from Orangeland with heaps of European narrowbody time joining as a DEC this summer.
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Defiance in the face of adversity!!
1) Do not offer any of our OFF DAYS at all. Gents, if we do this for just two months, our T and C's will have to change for the better. We are expected to be flexible and understanding at ALL TIMES, whilst the company offers absolutely NO FLEXIBILITY in return. STOP DOING THEM FAVOURS ON YOUR DAYS OFF. LET's think long term and not for instant gratification. ALL IT WILL TAKE IS TWO MONTHS. THEN WATCH WHAT HAPPENS!!!
2) I personally asked Stealey about the DEC pay, in front of 10 other colleagues. He lied. So, instead of getting angry and upset, it is simple. Fly to rule. Discretion = NO. DAYS OFF = NO. UNDERSTANDING and pleading from Management = NO.
3) SALARY INCREASE = YES
4) JUMP SEAT = YES
5) COMMUTING STYLE ROSTERS = YES (I am not a commuter, yet. But would like to see the block days off like in the past, returned.)
6) BY PASS PAY for our FO's = YES
And I'm sure there are more points to add on this list.
Now it's time for management to CHECK SIX.
2) I personally asked Stealey about the DEC pay, in front of 10 other colleagues. He lied. So, instead of getting angry and upset, it is simple. Fly to rule. Discretion = NO. DAYS OFF = NO. UNDERSTANDING and pleading from Management = NO.
3) SALARY INCREASE = YES
4) JUMP SEAT = YES
5) COMMUTING STYLE ROSTERS = YES (I am not a commuter, yet. But would like to see the block days off like in the past, returned.)
6) BY PASS PAY for our FO's = YES
And I'm sure there are more points to add on this list.
Now it's time for management to CHECK SIX.
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Six, couldn't agree with you more. But check out SM's June roster! This is a newly upgraded airbus captain that has been here for at least 3 1/2 years.
Sadly, we are our own worst enemies!
Sadly, we are our own worst enemies!
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Nothing will change here to the better, how many guys really walked off the 201 and how many went into discretion? I am sorry to say there are too many w*****s and too many managment wannabies here (did I mention the guys from far south who talk a lot at the bar but then have their tails between there legs).
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Interesting that the resignations are quoted in percentages. 3.7% down from 4.5%. Fact is we now have over 1400 pilots vs. somewhere around 1100 a year ago. If my math is correct, that's 51 this year vs. 49 last, at a time EK can ill afford to loose a single pilot. Also know of 3 more resignations since that letter came out so that would make it closer to 3.9% for this year.
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Actually the numbers are a lot better. I realy do not see a problem.
Only one pilot who joined on June 7th 1994 has left. This is less than 0.1%.
Only 2 Pilots who have joined with no prior Command Time and are here more than 3 years but less than 4 have left.
No pilots who have got their Command and have less than 500 hours on type as P1 have left.
I think I should be up for a mabrouk award, since these numbers are great.
I love the saying if you cannot convince them confuse them.
I am sure the ED numbers came up in a management meeting, when they were asked to explain 53 resignations in six months, and the response was that it was only 3.7%.
I think the writing is on the wall now. The T and C s will continue to slide and I just cannot imagine what this place is going to be like when the good years and the expansion ends.....
Sorry Check Six, I do not share your views....
Only one pilot who joined on June 7th 1994 has left. This is less than 0.1%.
Only 2 Pilots who have joined with no prior Command Time and are here more than 3 years but less than 4 have left.
No pilots who have got their Command and have less than 500 hours on type as P1 have left.
I think I should be up for a mabrouk award, since these numbers are great.
I love the saying if you cannot convince them confuse them.
I am sure the ED numbers came up in a management meeting, when they were asked to explain 53 resignations in six months, and the response was that it was only 3.7%.
I think the writing is on the wall now. The T and C s will continue to slide and I just cannot imagine what this place is going to be like when the good years and the expansion ends.....
Sorry Check Six, I do not share your views....
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CaptJohn,
Had a chuckle at your post, pretty close to the truth I'd say.
You don't agree with Check Six, that's a fair statement and you're entitled to your own view. I don't know how long you've been around, but T&C's have gradually been degraded over the years. What in your opinion can we as a pilot group do to make things better? Talking at pilot meetings doesn't help....
Had a chuckle at your post, pretty close to the truth I'd say.
You don't agree with Check Six, that's a fair statement and you're entitled to your own view. I don't know how long you've been around, but T&C's have gradually been degraded over the years. What in your opinion can we as a pilot group do to make things better? Talking at pilot meetings doesn't help....
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Hi War,
I have been here for 12 years, and I have never seen before such an unrest and movement of people. Two of my friends have just resigned, and I am thinking, what am I doing here. I am seriously thinking of going back to OZ and getting a commuting job as well for about the same amount of money overall but a lot better quality of life for the family. Had I been on the Bus I would have gone to Jet*.
The reason why I do not share Check Six's views is because I have been flying with the new blood who has been coming from South America and they are very content. It seems EK has found another place to get their pilots.
I am not going to get into the discussion of are they suitable, are they enough, are they the solution, the truth is that they are getting more money here than they were back home, they are a lot safer here than they were back home, and they are enjoying the honeymoon period with the new four wheel drives and the hotel clubs.
It will be a few years before they also discover what we have, and by then it will be too late for those guys, as yet more new blood will have joined. The 777 has been flying a lot of late, and I am now completely and utterly shattered...
I do not know what the solution is, and that is the big problem with most of us, we do not know what we have to do to change the declining trend in our quality of life, our family's quality of life, and our savings due to the rising costs and drop in the US $.
I have been here for 12 years, and I have never seen before such an unrest and movement of people. Two of my friends have just resigned, and I am thinking, what am I doing here. I am seriously thinking of going back to OZ and getting a commuting job as well for about the same amount of money overall but a lot better quality of life for the family. Had I been on the Bus I would have gone to Jet*.
The reason why I do not share Check Six's views is because I have been flying with the new blood who has been coming from South America and they are very content. It seems EK has found another place to get their pilots.
I am not going to get into the discussion of are they suitable, are they enough, are they the solution, the truth is that they are getting more money here than they were back home, they are a lot safer here than they were back home, and they are enjoying the honeymoon period with the new four wheel drives and the hotel clubs.
It will be a few years before they also discover what we have, and by then it will be too late for those guys, as yet more new blood will have joined. The 777 has been flying a lot of late, and I am now completely and utterly shattered...
I do not know what the solution is, and that is the big problem with most of us, we do not know what we have to do to change the declining trend in our quality of life, our family's quality of life, and our savings due to the rising costs and drop in the US $.
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honest outside opinion
Gents I know that I am not entitled to comment on your T&Cs as I am not in EK. However I have been in the business all my life as 3rd generation pilot.
T&Cs are going down the swanny in just about all 1st world airlines, BA lost their final salary scheme years ago and general erosion has continued across the board since then.
In europe all airlines now are run by accountants who assume that the cheapest option is the best, when has the cheapest been the best solution?
Whilst it is a bitter pill to swallow all airlines are in the business to make money and they don't care how. In reality there is no way for any individual to change the system, in a ideal world every brother pilot would stand up and be counted but that will never happen as long we all have individual problems of our own mortgages , boats , school fees etc to be frank I would not risk my kids future or my house cowardly but true.
My solution ... if they are not asking my opinion on a policy change chances are they don't want it! So fly the jet but leave the airline at the garden gate when you get home otherwise it will eat you up like a cancer.
As the old saying goes "life is like a sh#t sandwich, the more bread you have the less sh#t you get to eat relativley".
Fly safe
Alwayz
T&Cs are going down the swanny in just about all 1st world airlines, BA lost their final salary scheme years ago and general erosion has continued across the board since then.
In europe all airlines now are run by accountants who assume that the cheapest option is the best, when has the cheapest been the best solution?
Whilst it is a bitter pill to swallow all airlines are in the business to make money and they don't care how. In reality there is no way for any individual to change the system, in a ideal world every brother pilot would stand up and be counted but that will never happen as long we all have individual problems of our own mortgages , boats , school fees etc to be frank I would not risk my kids future or my house cowardly but true.
My solution ... if they are not asking my opinion on a policy change chances are they don't want it! So fly the jet but leave the airline at the garden gate when you get home otherwise it will eat you up like a cancer.
As the old saying goes "life is like a sh#t sandwich, the more bread you have the less sh#t you get to eat relativley".
Fly safe
Alwayz
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Always...
The problem is that in a expat job like this you are surrounded by the job even at home.
I would also suggest that even at BA, and I am aware of the problems, the company could not have lied and cheated the way EK are able to do.
I have flown with new pilots recently who say they are generally content, their argument being that it is not as bad as their previous airline (no Europeans, Canadians & Malaysians mainly). The irony is that many years ago we were saying the same. As the decline continues their threshold will also be reached, where EK becomes as bad as their old job.
As sandflake points out, Eds 'creative' statistics indicate a constant attrition rate, not a declining one.
Managements coping strategy: "If we don't like it leave', well guess what, we're leaving.
The problem is that in a expat job like this you are surrounded by the job even at home.
I would also suggest that even at BA, and I am aware of the problems, the company could not have lied and cheated the way EK are able to do.
I have flown with new pilots recently who say they are generally content, their argument being that it is not as bad as their previous airline (no Europeans, Canadians & Malaysians mainly). The irony is that many years ago we were saying the same. As the decline continues their threshold will also be reached, where EK becomes as bad as their old job.
As sandflake points out, Eds 'creative' statistics indicate a constant attrition rate, not a declining one.
Managements coping strategy: "If we don't like it leave', well guess what, we're leaving.
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Wait...... I think I get this now. So if at the end of last year we had 1100 pilots and they're all pissed off, we make things worse to get some of the high paid whiners to quite. Hier 400 new pilots from places worse than this... giving us 400-500 new guys out of 1600, or so, by the end of the year. If out of the original 1100 there's now 1000, a 9.1% reduction, plus 500 new pilots who are markedly happier?? so what's that 31.3% 
....... now let's say 7.6% of those people become discontented in the next 6 months that's net 23.7%. So now instead of 100% of the pilots unhappy it's only 76.3%.... hang on...... moral is IMPROVING!
....... now let's say 7.6% of those people become discontented in the next 6 months that's net 23.7%. So now instead of 100% of the pilots unhappy it's only 76.3%.... hang on...... moral is IMPROVING!
Last edited by sandflake; 10th Jun 2006 at 18:11.
