View Poll Results: EK Guys - would you work a day off?
Sure I would
38
19.19%
Who me? I don't even answer the phone
158
79.80%
I'd work if 4HP asked me to
2
1.01%
Voters: 198. This poll is closed
Working a day off in EK
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Bound for Dubai:-
I have yet to meet a "cowboy" from BA,VS,they are consumate professionals,in every case.There are many "groups" here,some came through choice,most infact,others because they needed a job.None will retire on 200K pa.
You however,go and put your anorak back on,and get back to sharpening your pencils.
SecurID:- Very eloquently,put.
Any pilot,here in EK,who believes they do not need,insurance cover,are either tight fisted beyond belief,or naive in the extreme.
A330 man,part from your pastime of thong watching,what do you do IF,you are rostered 95-100 hrs,each month,without choice?
If rostered,you do the work,you get the hours,the money,I cant see how you avoid unless sick?
With the new system,that wont be a problem,however.
QB
I have yet to meet a "cowboy" from BA,VS,they are consumate professionals,in every case.There are many "groups" here,some came through choice,most infact,others because they needed a job.None will retire on 200K pa.
You however,go and put your anorak back on,and get back to sharpening your pencils.
SecurID:- Very eloquently,put.
Any pilot,here in EK,who believes they do not need,insurance cover,are either tight fisted beyond belief,or naive in the extreme.
A330 man,part from your pastime of thong watching,what do you do IF,you are rostered 95-100 hrs,each month,without choice?
If rostered,you do the work,you get the hours,the money,I cant see how you avoid unless sick?
With the new system,that wont be a problem,however.
QB
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I apologize for my wording, cowboy was probably not the best word to use. I am sure they are all great guys, and very professional at what they do. But to the outside world, especially people who do plan on working for this company, the vibe is that u've all lost ur passion for what you do and u do it for $$$. Its hard for even someone with enough hours to get a straight to the point non bias answer, because someone always has something smart to say. Not everyone is after the money, I know I sure ain't. If I was I'd be a lawyer or Doctor.
Emirates is treating you guys this way because they can. In terms of business and management, its brilliant all though the ethics are horrible. They lower ur pay and increase ur workload because they have a huge pilot pool, guys that are willing to move down there cause they think its where they want to be. Don't like the way they are treating you, fine, they can have you replaced faster than you can say "honey pack your bags, we're leaving". They got guys with just as much time or guys with not as much but with the money to buy their own endorsements and to buy their seat in the flight deck.
They don't treat baggage handlers and engineers this way, because maybe their supply or hiring pool for those jobs are not as big as the pilots. And since pilots are more likely to migrate than baggage handlers they don't have a problem with it.
I am not as dumb as you think, I know how it all works, I've worked co-op in major corporations and my study in college was aviation management.
You got to live with what you got and sometimes life doesn't ask you you what you want. You think its bad at EK, its bad almost everywhere. In the end its you guys that decided to go there, you signed the contract or agreement or whatever it is you guys do to make things official (if that even exists there)
I know it isn't easy to live there and work especially if you're not local, I have many friends that live there, study there and work there. They are why I became interested in going down there. I am not too thrilled either. My first job is gonna require me to live in my van in the boonies for the spring, summer and fall season because the pay is less than $12000CDN a year, but I have to pay my dues like everyone else.
In the end, weigh out your odds, if its not worth your time then leave and go somewhere that makes you happy, but don't spoil opportunities and chances for others who started just like you and deserve every chance you got!
Greatly Appreciated,
BFD
Emirates is treating you guys this way because they can. In terms of business and management, its brilliant all though the ethics are horrible. They lower ur pay and increase ur workload because they have a huge pilot pool, guys that are willing to move down there cause they think its where they want to be. Don't like the way they are treating you, fine, they can have you replaced faster than you can say "honey pack your bags, we're leaving". They got guys with just as much time or guys with not as much but with the money to buy their own endorsements and to buy their seat in the flight deck.
They don't treat baggage handlers and engineers this way, because maybe their supply or hiring pool for those jobs are not as big as the pilots. And since pilots are more likely to migrate than baggage handlers they don't have a problem with it.
I am not as dumb as you think, I know how it all works, I've worked co-op in major corporations and my study in college was aviation management.
You got to live with what you got and sometimes life doesn't ask you you what you want. You think its bad at EK, its bad almost everywhere. In the end its you guys that decided to go there, you signed the contract or agreement or whatever it is you guys do to make things official (if that even exists there)
I know it isn't easy to live there and work especially if you're not local, I have many friends that live there, study there and work there. They are why I became interested in going down there. I am not too thrilled either. My first job is gonna require me to live in my van in the boonies for the spring, summer and fall season because the pay is less than $12000CDN a year, but I have to pay my dues like everyone else.
In the end, weigh out your odds, if its not worth your time then leave and go somewhere that makes you happy, but don't spoil opportunities and chances for others who started just like you and deserve every chance you got!
Greatly Appreciated,
BFD
Last edited by bound_for_dubai; 25th Oct 2004 at 06:47.
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bound-for-dubai is a canadian child who lurks on this forum and dreams of an exotic life in the middle east, a place he understands because he's never been there. it is best to stick him on your ignore list and report him to the moderator because his opinions are not founded in anything.
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You would know all of this, where I've been what I dream because you are what.... a washed out miserable pilot, who doesn't post a location for himself because he's from nowhere, going nowhere. Never knew s*** could float, then I saw you swim. Happy flying, if you ever get around to doing that after you finish crying.
BFD
BFD
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Ernest
My god BFD is an irritating little brat is he not!! He used to go in for one liners but now he seems to have got the bit between his teeth he rambles on and on. With the approaching Canadian winter I guess we are all in for more and more of his inane prattlings.
My god BFD is an irritating little brat is he not!! He used to go in for one liners but now he seems to have got the bit between his teeth he rambles on and on. With the approaching Canadian winter I guess we are all in for more and more of his inane prattlings.
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BFD,EK are looking for people just like you,but not on the flight deck.Your services,will be put to good use in the "pencil sharpening dept",where you can hide behind a rubber plant,plotting further cuts,to the "cowboys" you so want to join.
Your ethics,principles,and ideology,are familiar to us here as pilots,who care about our future,and that of EK.We simply have no meaningful dialogue,or comms with our Flt ops managers.
It is absurd,to suggest anyone here,wishes to "hit back" or "hurt" our airline,we are professionals,and merely find it rather difficult to accept imposed,forced changes,with no explanation.That is not unnatural,Im sure it even happens in Canada.
Now,get back in your van,in the boonies,put your boxing gloves on,and enjoy that cold winter,filling in lots of forms,to utilise your aviation skills,whilst we moan and whine on the beach,with a cold beer.with out hats and snakeskin boots on.
QB
Your ethics,principles,and ideology,are familiar to us here as pilots,who care about our future,and that of EK.We simply have no meaningful dialogue,or comms with our Flt ops managers.
It is absurd,to suggest anyone here,wishes to "hit back" or "hurt" our airline,we are professionals,and merely find it rather difficult to accept imposed,forced changes,with no explanation.That is not unnatural,Im sure it even happens in Canada.
Now,get back in your van,in the boonies,put your boxing gloves on,and enjoy that cold winter,filling in lots of forms,to utilise your aviation skills,whilst we moan and whine on the beach,with a cold beer.with out hats and snakeskin boots on.
QB
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BFD,
Are you familiar with the noun, 'gravitas'? A rough colloquialism would be 'street cred'. Point is, you have none. Disappear until you're potty trained.
Are you familiar with the noun, 'gravitas'? A rough colloquialism would be 'street cred'. Point is, you have none. Disappear until you're potty trained.
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Buford
"I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on. "
To give you an analogy, suppose you work for GM on the car assembly line. Your job requires you to work 4 days/week building the cars (Mon-Thur) and 1 day/week doing paperwork in the office (Fri). Your normal work week is 40 hours; 32 hours building cars and 8 hours doing the paperwork. Your contract says that if you work over 40 hours/week (either building cars or doing the paperwork) they will pay you extra for your time. However, it will not be "overtime" that you might think of in the U.S. such as time and a half, double time, etc; it will be a small amount of "productivity pay" above your normal salary/hour you make anyway (if you made $20/hour GM decides to make your "productivity pay" $24.60 for each hour you work beyond 40 hours/week either on the assembly line or in the office. About 23% more than your base rate, and hence the reason the company has never used the term "overtime". In EK's structure that is approx the increase above your base rate for a 4 year Captain and as your salary increases over years in the company the % decreases (as the rate of "productivity pay" is a fixed amount that never changes). A year 12 Captain actually makes less per hour working "overtime" than his base rate/hour! No wonder the company had such a hard time finding "volunteers" to do "overtime".). Also lets say GM tells you that when they produce the monthly schedule they will roster you for this extra "productivity" at their discretion, that even if you have no interest in working "overtime" you just won't have any choice (EK currently) and it will just show up magically on your following month's roster.
Now suppose GM comes down and says they have decided to change the game. Now you will still work the 40 hours/week but they will only pay you overtime for the time you spend building cars on Mon-Thur. To compensate you for this they tell you they will lower the threshold for the productivity pay by 6% (83 to 78 hours in EK's case), so now your package at GM looks like this:
Productivity pay threshold: now 37.6 hours (6% less than before)
Mon-Thur: build cars for 32 hours
Fri: do paperwork for 8 hours
Because of the changes GM now can schedule you an additional 5.6 hours/week building cars before they need to pay you the additional "productivity pay". They can also now schedule you as many hours as they want on Fri doing paperwork as it does not come into the calculation for productivity pay and they do not have to pay you for it; in other words you get to work for free on Friday.
Now take all that and substitute car building for physically flying the airplane (block hours only) and substitute paperwork for reserve (standby duty), deadheading, simulators, ground school training, etc.
How do figure that would go down on the GM assembly line?
Still wanna come?????
"I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on. "
To give you an analogy, suppose you work for GM on the car assembly line. Your job requires you to work 4 days/week building the cars (Mon-Thur) and 1 day/week doing paperwork in the office (Fri). Your normal work week is 40 hours; 32 hours building cars and 8 hours doing the paperwork. Your contract says that if you work over 40 hours/week (either building cars or doing the paperwork) they will pay you extra for your time. However, it will not be "overtime" that you might think of in the U.S. such as time and a half, double time, etc; it will be a small amount of "productivity pay" above your normal salary/hour you make anyway (if you made $20/hour GM decides to make your "productivity pay" $24.60 for each hour you work beyond 40 hours/week either on the assembly line or in the office. About 23% more than your base rate, and hence the reason the company has never used the term "overtime". In EK's structure that is approx the increase above your base rate for a 4 year Captain and as your salary increases over years in the company the % decreases (as the rate of "productivity pay" is a fixed amount that never changes). A year 12 Captain actually makes less per hour working "overtime" than his base rate/hour! No wonder the company had such a hard time finding "volunteers" to do "overtime".). Also lets say GM tells you that when they produce the monthly schedule they will roster you for this extra "productivity" at their discretion, that even if you have no interest in working "overtime" you just won't have any choice (EK currently) and it will just show up magically on your following month's roster.
Now suppose GM comes down and says they have decided to change the game. Now you will still work the 40 hours/week but they will only pay you overtime for the time you spend building cars on Mon-Thur. To compensate you for this they tell you they will lower the threshold for the productivity pay by 6% (83 to 78 hours in EK's case), so now your package at GM looks like this:
Productivity pay threshold: now 37.6 hours (6% less than before)
Mon-Thur: build cars for 32 hours
Fri: do paperwork for 8 hours
Because of the changes GM now can schedule you an additional 5.6 hours/week building cars before they need to pay you the additional "productivity pay". They can also now schedule you as many hours as they want on Fri doing paperwork as it does not come into the calculation for productivity pay and they do not have to pay you for it; in other words you get to work for free on Friday.
Now take all that and substitute car building for physically flying the airplane (block hours only) and substitute paperwork for reserve (standby duty), deadheading, simulators, ground school training, etc.
How do figure that would go down on the GM assembly line?
Still wanna come?????
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One could only wish that a pilot could have the work hours and pay/benefits package of an assembly line worker from GM...and I know...lived in a town full of 'em, all my neighbors wuz one....
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Out of interest, has anyone tested the legal waters for breach of contract? Will the legal cover give us access to such legal advice? If we all compare todays T&Cs to those we joined with would we have a case?
Last edited by Shake; 25th Oct 2004 at 12:39.
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I'm sorry it took so long folks (occasionally I have to work 
) but I'm sure you will all (except himself that is) be relieved to hear that BFD has had all rights to this forum removed. Once again I will reiterate that these forums are primarily for professional pilots; we welcome all walks of aviation professionals to interact, as well as those interested or associated with aviation. All we ask is that they demonstrate a common respect for other forum members. BFD has clearly abused that civil decency and I've pulled the plug on him. I apologize to those in children's interest groups or civil liberty organizations who feel that I may have abused my remit but that's the way it is.
Now let's get on with our business.
4HP
) but I'm sure you will all (except himself that is) be relieved to hear that BFD has had all rights to this forum removed. Once again I will reiterate that these forums are primarily for professional pilots; we welcome all walks of aviation professionals to interact, as well as those interested or associated with aviation. All we ask is that they demonstrate a common respect for other forum members. BFD has clearly abused that civil decency and I've pulled the plug on him. I apologize to those in children's interest groups or civil liberty organizations who feel that I may have abused my remit but that's the way it is.Now let's get on with our business.
4HP
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Earl Hadlea:
Very interesting. I got 7 reserve (2nd from bottom bid group, mid way up in my group) when last month I got 1 day reserve (bottom bid group).
7 Days off total (max 2 in a row)
Same weighting on the CRS bid as last month so if anything my roster should have improved, not gotten worse.
Not supposed to come into effect until Dec 1 my ass; some definate manipulation of the new T&C's here to see how it will all pan out.
4HolerPoler:
Thank you for your intervention, very good news. Now maybe we can let the adults continue to debate these important issues.
Cheers.
Dune
Very interesting. I got 7 reserve (2nd from bottom bid group, mid way up in my group) when last month I got 1 day reserve (bottom bid group).
7 Days off total (max 2 in a row)
Same weighting on the CRS bid as last month so if anything my roster should have improved, not gotten worse.
Not supposed to come into effect until Dec 1 my ass; some definate manipulation of the new T&C's here to see how it will all pan out.
4HolerPoler:
Thank you for your intervention, very good news. Now maybe we can let the adults continue to debate these important issues.
Cheers.
Dune
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I'm top bid and actually got a decent roster for a change. However, I look forward to December with interest when I will be first to trial the new system as a bottom bidder!
I'm trying to work out who will stay working in the office. If 2 weeks office days (without any associated credit) will pay less than a Manchester in overtime. They have been trying to get pilots out of some of the key Flt Ops jobs, now they may succeed. I shudder to think about the quality of new hires we will get with zippo pilot involvement in the recruitment process.
Can't wait to see what happens when they start paying augmented crews in accordance with the flight time they are allowed to log. We already have several flights that go into discretion the moment the parking brake is released. Is it legal to sched a flight as 9hrs block when it will actually take about 9.30 to avoid taking an extra crew member.
The thin end of the wedge is getting fatter by the second, better go to Choits and get some more vaseline. Ut oh!
Cerberus
I'm trying to work out who will stay working in the office. If 2 weeks office days (without any associated credit) will pay less than a Manchester in overtime. They have been trying to get pilots out of some of the key Flt Ops jobs, now they may succeed. I shudder to think about the quality of new hires we will get with zippo pilot involvement in the recruitment process.
Can't wait to see what happens when they start paying augmented crews in accordance with the flight time they are allowed to log. We already have several flights that go into discretion the moment the parking brake is released. Is it legal to sched a flight as 9hrs block when it will actually take about 9.30 to avoid taking an extra crew member.
The thin end of the wedge is getting fatter by the second, better go to Choits and get some more vaseline. Ut oh!
Cerberus
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Dune.If I didnt know better,I might think you designed the new system,very nicely put.
Cerberus,your Dec roster will be a good litmus test,enjoy your good roster,whilst it lasts.
The new system,has resulted in 5 or 6 of Recruitment team resigning,as no credit now received.So a well researched move on that front,to keep pace with continued expansion.
Word is the 2/3 ,3/4 augment nonsense is to be shelved.
New callsign,effective,1st Dec,in co ordination with new T and Cs.
BOHICA replaces Emirates.
Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
Safe flying to all,and keep you glasses,half full lads.Been in training school,hence,SITREP,all rumour naturally.
QB
Cerberus,your Dec roster will be a good litmus test,enjoy your good roster,whilst it lasts.
The new system,has resulted in 5 or 6 of Recruitment team resigning,as no credit now received.So a well researched move on that front,to keep pace with continued expansion.
Word is the 2/3 ,3/4 augment nonsense is to be shelved.
New callsign,effective,1st Dec,in co ordination with new T and Cs.
BOHICA replaces Emirates.
Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
Safe flying to all,and keep you glasses,half full lads.Been in training school,hence,SITREP,all rumour naturally.
QB
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Hello, again
I am sure that things will only get worse, since we do not decide to stand up to this...
Two notes that I think all of us need to take a look at. Why are they offering us 800 AED for our days off?
Because they are desperate to find people to work on their days off, and since goodwill amongst the pilot group will not get anybody to fly for them, they are offering the 800 as a carrot. It goes to show you guys, how management works in solving problems. See a problem try to fix it. See no problem, well things must be great.
On a second issue, I think that now that the company is growing over 1000 pilots you will not see many of us not calling in sick when we feel we had enough.
Guess what? Next month they are starting to f....k around with my roster, and I have a feeling already that I am going to be fatigued, and not fly the 10 trips they have scheduled me for. I am definetely not coming back deadhead, so any of you want to do it, go ahead...
By the way, when they change the contract from its original, and since there are no legal labour laws in Dubai, you are bound by your home country laws, so you are protected when it comes time to go to court...
Cheers
I am sure that things will only get worse, since we do not decide to stand up to this...
Two notes that I think all of us need to take a look at. Why are they offering us 800 AED for our days off?
Because they are desperate to find people to work on their days off, and since goodwill amongst the pilot group will not get anybody to fly for them, they are offering the 800 as a carrot. It goes to show you guys, how management works in solving problems. See a problem try to fix it. See no problem, well things must be great.
On a second issue, I think that now that the company is growing over 1000 pilots you will not see many of us not calling in sick when we feel we had enough.
Guess what? Next month they are starting to f....k around with my roster, and I have a feeling already that I am going to be fatigued, and not fly the 10 trips they have scheduled me for. I am definetely not coming back deadhead, so any of you want to do it, go ahead...
By the way, when they change the contract from its original, and since there are no legal labour laws in Dubai, you are bound by your home country laws, so you are protected when it comes time to go to court...
Cheers
Last edited by crapflying; 26th Oct 2004 at 06:20.
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All well and good, crapflying, but then again it doesn't seem to have worked out for the CX guys...last I heard.
Known facts (or at least it should absolutely have been known) that the rules are set by management in the middle east.
If you didn't know this before...now you do, and not a thing you can do about it.
And further, when you applied, you asked for work, yes?
Now that you actually have to work (gravy train derailed) so there is only one alternative, like it or leave.
Simple as that.
It has been ever thus since aeroplanes were first introduced to the middle eastern folks...and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Yes, it was once true that the big bucks were there (MiddleEast) for the taking, but these times have loooog passed.
Like it or not...and apparently most do not.
Just the way it is, and nothing you can do about it.
On the brighter side, perhaps other flying jobs have opened up elsewhere, but suspect that terms and conditions are on the ever-more downward slide.
Known facts (or at least it should absolutely have been known) that the rules are set by management in the middle east.
If you didn't know this before...now you do, and not a thing you can do about it.
And further, when you applied, you asked for work, yes?
Now that you actually have to work (gravy train derailed) so there is only one alternative, like it or leave.
Simple as that.
It has been ever thus since aeroplanes were first introduced to the middle eastern folks...and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Yes, it was once true that the big bucks were there (MiddleEast) for the taking, but these times have loooog passed.
Like it or not...and apparently most do not.
Just the way it is, and nothing you can do about it.
On the brighter side, perhaps other flying jobs have opened up elsewhere, but suspect that terms and conditions are on the ever-more downward slide.
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Crapflyer,
The legal aspect is still very interesting if we are to an extent covered by our homeland laws and not exclusively by the local ones...how do we find out exactly? This I believe this could offer a way forward if a group action were to be considered.
You are right with much of what you say but remember that there are many here who have young families and do not have your financial security to do much yet. This is what he company cynically count on to a certain extent. However, as the changes begin to take effect, paying tax again back home won't seem as bad as it once did as it is possible to clear more net back home now than the take home package here (even with accom).
Good luck with standing your ground...remember your on sand now.
The legal aspect is still very interesting if we are to an extent covered by our homeland laws and not exclusively by the local ones...how do we find out exactly? This I believe this could offer a way forward if a group action were to be considered.
You are right with much of what you say but remember that there are many here who have young families and do not have your financial security to do much yet. This is what he company cynically count on to a certain extent. However, as the changes begin to take effect, paying tax again back home won't seem as bad as it once did as it is possible to clear more net back home now than the take home package here (even with accom).
Good luck with standing your ground...remember your on sand now.
Last edited by Shake; 26th Oct 2004 at 05:03.
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Here's another way to look at the whole equation:
Back at the last pilots meetings (gone the way of the Dodo) in December and January, we were informed that the T+Cs were being looked into.
The company DID NOT spend 6 to 8 months coming up with something that benefits us, the workers.
But my real worry is this: is this the first of a two part implementation and part two is to give us the required minimum days off per month, and the rest will be stanbys, availables, and other such duties. This will mean that the company no longer has to pay ANY overtime, call out fees and saves a bundle on our pay, whilst paying for long term health problems which will arise from being over-worked.
And before anyone says we're not over worked, look at it this way: many of our flights leave between 2am and 4am local, and how much rest do you get the afternoon/evening before with all the neighbours and kids etc making merry? You do a 10 hour duty, have 24 hours off and then come back again to arrive sometime around dawn the following day.
OK, so a day to get the body back in order would be great? But no, away again after another 24 hours off for another 24 hour period away.
This will lead to fatigue, which he company doesn't recognise and will put you down as being sick!
So with all these long hour flights (20 per trip away) you do 4 flights and you have 80ish hours for approx 12 days work, and thus require the other 18 or 19 days off.
The company doesn't like this and has a. decreased the augmented crew flight duty you can claim for your 28 days maximum, and b. now no longer giving credit for any other duty.
Now most other, DECENT, airlines give at least 2 nights off down route for some proper rest before returning. But this would cost the company in monetary terms in allowances and accommodation.
So make up your mind AAR, days off down route (costing the company money), or days off in Dubai, with less fatigue and less expenses!
Not that it matters for me any more.......
TTFN
Wag
Back at the last pilots meetings (gone the way of the Dodo) in December and January, we were informed that the T+Cs were being looked into.
The company DID NOT spend 6 to 8 months coming up with something that benefits us, the workers.
But my real worry is this: is this the first of a two part implementation and part two is to give us the required minimum days off per month, and the rest will be stanbys, availables, and other such duties. This will mean that the company no longer has to pay ANY overtime, call out fees and saves a bundle on our pay, whilst paying for long term health problems which will arise from being over-worked.
And before anyone says we're not over worked, look at it this way: many of our flights leave between 2am and 4am local, and how much rest do you get the afternoon/evening before with all the neighbours and kids etc making merry? You do a 10 hour duty, have 24 hours off and then come back again to arrive sometime around dawn the following day.
OK, so a day to get the body back in order would be great? But no, away again after another 24 hours off for another 24 hour period away.
This will lead to fatigue, which he company doesn't recognise and will put you down as being sick!
So with all these long hour flights (20 per trip away) you do 4 flights and you have 80ish hours for approx 12 days work, and thus require the other 18 or 19 days off.
The company doesn't like this and has a. decreased the augmented crew flight duty you can claim for your 28 days maximum, and b. now no longer giving credit for any other duty.
Now most other, DECENT, airlines give at least 2 nights off down route for some proper rest before returning. But this would cost the company in monetary terms in allowances and accommodation.
So make up your mind AAR, days off down route (costing the company money), or days off in Dubai, with less fatigue and less expenses!
Not that it matters for me any more.......
TTFN
Wag