View Poll Results: EK Guys - would you work a day off?
Sure I would
38
19.19%
Who me? I don't even answer the phone
158
79.80%
I'd work if 4HP asked me to
2
1.01%
Voters: 198. This poll is closed
Working a day off in EK
You have to also compare the right figures. I do not think you get the 3.5hr pay for a MCT (for example) now......only Sched block time. Will not effect a lot of flights, but it will hurt in the bottom bid groups. Have had a look and the results for me are mixed..as I have had a few operate one way, dead head home, PPC and leave things that have tilted the balance to the old system.
If the rostering stays the same..we may be in front....but there is some warning of things being to good to be true. I see a compulsion to stop guys getting too many days off, and the fact that reserve is free a big worry.
Once heard a fella say he loved this job so much he would do it for free...well he has got part of that wish, as his PPC now is.
We will not know the full impact of this pay cut until we see how they use these rules when making the rosters.
Don
If the rostering stays the same..we may be in front....but there is some warning of things being to good to be true. I see a compulsion to stop guys getting too many days off, and the fact that reserve is free a big worry.
Once heard a fella say he loved this job so much he would do it for free...well he has got part of that wish, as his PPC now is.
We will not know the full impact of this pay cut until we see how they use these rules when making the rosters.
Don
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Kamel Chaser,Big Geordie,have just compared last month roster,under present system,(it was top bid),including my PPC,and 3 stby,not called,1 dead head.10 hrs overtime,total.
Apply,the new system,to the SAME roster,strangely NIL overtime,thats,erm 4000 Dhs,gone in a puff of sand.
Can anyone explain that?
Smoke and mirrors?Creative accounting?Im "co-operating",they must be laughing their socks off,at this latest conjuring trick.
Safe flying to all.
PFM. Quod Boy.
Apply,the new system,to the SAME roster,strangely NIL overtime,thats,erm 4000 Dhs,gone in a puff of sand.
Can anyone explain that?
Smoke and mirrors?Creative accounting?Im "co-operating",they must be laughing their socks off,at this latest conjuring trick.
Safe flying to all.
PFM. Quod Boy.
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Sounds to me like someone is after the "bright ideas'' award all for them selves....!:ok
Watch for the winners of the 2004 bright idea....... in the EK mag to see who made up this huge cost cutting shafting
I'm with the stick it to the company routine....they certainly have no trouble sticking it us...
Cheers Morph
Watch for the winners of the 2004 bright idea....... in the EK mag to see who made up this huge cost cutting shafting
I'm with the stick it to the company routine....they certainly have no trouble sticking it us...
Cheers Morph
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Its Paul who got robbed to pay Peter (who was then mugged)!! Some of the lucky junior TRIs might be better off. Line pilots and anyone carrying out an extra duty outside the training department will be significantly worse off. Excuse me if my numbers below are not totally accurate but I don't think they are far off.
At first sight, it sees to me that junior TRIs will be better off if they carry out the 12 rostered training duties in a month. They may even have a chance of overtime if they are worked hard. Nice Deal!! Maybe....
But on the other foot a CRM mate / Recruiter will earn about the same as before and have no chance of overtime. If they did 2 weeks work recruiting, they would have to do 106 hrs credit (78 block) before making any overtime. But...if they didn't recruit they would get paid the same amount of cash if they did one days extra work and flew to Istanbul. Not such a nice deal... seems the incentive to work in the office is now non-existant.
Overall though, if you have say 42 days leave, 10 training days, 30 hrs dead heading and 10 standbys/year. Under the old system that would have added up to about 205 hrs of credit. The reduction in overtime trigger off-sets about 76 hrs. So every pilot loses about 130hrs of potential overtime/year i.e. 52k/yr for Captains and 37k for F/Os.
So maybe the TRIs won't be better off after all. Training pay adds up to 60k per year which for a guy on about 28k/month would be about 20k or so more than now, but you would have to do an extra 11hrs/ month or 4300/month for free before getting overtime.
Even the call out pay is a dicey, it says that you get it if you work a day off and don't get given another day off. Lets say that you have a great flight, that you want to do. You do the company a favour by working an off day and then to avoid the call out payment they cancel the great flight for you and give it to a mate on reserve (who is short of block time).
It isn't cost neutral at all. The company has increased the Training pay of a proportion of the trainers (though the more senior will lose out) and saved a hell of a lot of cash. Interestingly, for overtime, if you are the sort of guy that takes 28 days leave straight in one month, you will be better off than the mate that takes 4 days off here and there. Does that hurt the commuters?!?
So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. BG and KC, individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work. Correct me if I am wrong!!
Cerberus
P.S Stator - Flight Crew Notice
At first sight, it sees to me that junior TRIs will be better off if they carry out the 12 rostered training duties in a month. They may even have a chance of overtime if they are worked hard. Nice Deal!! Maybe....
But on the other foot a CRM mate / Recruiter will earn about the same as before and have no chance of overtime. If they did 2 weeks work recruiting, they would have to do 106 hrs credit (78 block) before making any overtime. But...if they didn't recruit they would get paid the same amount of cash if they did one days extra work and flew to Istanbul. Not such a nice deal... seems the incentive to work in the office is now non-existant.
Overall though, if you have say 42 days leave, 10 training days, 30 hrs dead heading and 10 standbys/year. Under the old system that would have added up to about 205 hrs of credit. The reduction in overtime trigger off-sets about 76 hrs. So every pilot loses about 130hrs of potential overtime/year i.e. 52k/yr for Captains and 37k for F/Os.
So maybe the TRIs won't be better off after all. Training pay adds up to 60k per year which for a guy on about 28k/month would be about 20k or so more than now, but you would have to do an extra 11hrs/ month or 4300/month for free before getting overtime.
Even the call out pay is a dicey, it says that you get it if you work a day off and don't get given another day off. Lets say that you have a great flight, that you want to do. You do the company a favour by working an off day and then to avoid the call out payment they cancel the great flight for you and give it to a mate on reserve (who is short of block time).
It isn't cost neutral at all. The company has increased the Training pay of a proportion of the trainers (though the more senior will lose out) and saved a hell of a lot of cash. Interestingly, for overtime, if you are the sort of guy that takes 28 days leave straight in one month, you will be better off than the mate that takes 4 days off here and there. Does that hurt the commuters?!?
So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. BG and KC, individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work. Correct me if I am wrong!!
Cerberus
P.S Stator - Flight Crew Notice
Last edited by Cerberus; 22nd Oct 2004 at 18:28.
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SO, fancy figure shuffling has given us a 15% pay cut, as well as being rostered to do more flying than ever. So what are we going to do about it? Has the rest of the company been given a pseudo 15% pay cut? Are we going to do anything?
Of course not, and that is why they can do whatever they want. We are all tied in to a minimum of seven years to get full benefits from the provident scheme. Kids in schools, villas and apartments that have now been purchased, car loans, etc. etc. These are just a few of the reasons why so many of us cannot contemplate leaving. As well as the minor fact that there is nowhere to go to. The industry is not exactly swinging rapidly upwards and won't do for a long time when oil is now $55 a barrel!
So, what to do? Just enjoy the sunshine I guess, but even that dissappeared today when it clouded over! Yes, my glass is half empty.
Of course not, and that is why they can do whatever they want. We are all tied in to a minimum of seven years to get full benefits from the provident scheme. Kids in schools, villas and apartments that have now been purchased, car loans, etc. etc. These are just a few of the reasons why so many of us cannot contemplate leaving. As well as the minor fact that there is nowhere to go to. The industry is not exactly swinging rapidly upwards and won't do for a long time when oil is now $55 a barrel!
So, what to do? Just enjoy the sunshine I guess, but even that dissappeared today when it clouded over! Yes, my glass is half empty.
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I am new to this forum, as I have joined Emirates as a DEC early this year.
It is interesting to see attitudes in an airline, and how everyone thinks within the box and only. I have been given the FIFO briefing and all the other little bits and pieces that come with the job in Emirates.
First of all let me say that I have a full pension from my previous airline, I have flown all the birds that come with a big national carrier, and I am here in Dubai until sixty to play golf and enjoy the beach. I have no desire to get involved in saving the world of aviation, in teaching anyone how to fly a visual approach, nor to pass on any of my great experiences from a previous life in a better airline under better times. I am here to have fun, and fun it has been but I can say that because I have financial security, and lots of assets to fall back on.
You guys are missing the big picture, and are involved in todays news, and not tomorrows.... The pay increse for Instructors is normal because they are needed today to continue the expansion, and they know that there will be people jumping to get the extra 5000 a month plus flight pay.
What you should be looking at, is how do we stop this erosion of t&cs.
To expect people who have not joined the airline to fight your battle is naive to say the least.... You have three solutions: 1. Do nothing, it might get better because we are honourable people who are professional, and they must see that. 2. Vote with your feet. We will leave and find something different and maybe better. 3. Do something. Get organized since unions are not allowed During golf, hokey, sailing come up with plans, and stick to them. United only can you achieve things.
It has never been easy in avaition, and my generation did not have it easy. We did not get things done in my airline because we negotiated better, or because we told our management we did not agree with them, and as professional pilots we expected more. We fought, we fought hard, and if any of you say well look were those airlines are today, I will say back, were look were I am today and my colleagues. We have financial security to play around now, and although I never got to take my plane home and park it outside my house for my neighbours to see what an important person I was, I have a bank account to prove it.
I hope you see the writing on the wall, and realize that it does not matter what you fly, or who you fly for, but how easy your job was and how much money you have in the bank
Cheers
It is interesting to see attitudes in an airline, and how everyone thinks within the box and only. I have been given the FIFO briefing and all the other little bits and pieces that come with the job in Emirates.
First of all let me say that I have a full pension from my previous airline, I have flown all the birds that come with a big national carrier, and I am here in Dubai until sixty to play golf and enjoy the beach. I have no desire to get involved in saving the world of aviation, in teaching anyone how to fly a visual approach, nor to pass on any of my great experiences from a previous life in a better airline under better times. I am here to have fun, and fun it has been but I can say that because I have financial security, and lots of assets to fall back on.
You guys are missing the big picture, and are involved in todays news, and not tomorrows.... The pay increse for Instructors is normal because they are needed today to continue the expansion, and they know that there will be people jumping to get the extra 5000 a month plus flight pay.
What you should be looking at, is how do we stop this erosion of t&cs.
To expect people who have not joined the airline to fight your battle is naive to say the least.... You have three solutions: 1. Do nothing, it might get better because we are honourable people who are professional, and they must see that. 2. Vote with your feet. We will leave and find something different and maybe better. 3. Do something. Get organized since unions are not allowed During golf, hokey, sailing come up with plans, and stick to them. United only can you achieve things.
It has never been easy in avaition, and my generation did not have it easy. We did not get things done in my airline because we negotiated better, or because we told our management we did not agree with them, and as professional pilots we expected more. We fought, we fought hard, and if any of you say well look were those airlines are today, I will say back, were look were I am today and my colleagues. We have financial security to play around now, and although I never got to take my plane home and park it outside my house for my neighbours to see what an important person I was, I have a bank account to prove it.
I hope you see the writing on the wall, and realize that it does not matter what you fly, or who you fly for, but how easy your job was and how much money you have in the bank
Cheers
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United we will never be mr crap. You, for example, will do nothing to jeapordise your golf game, additional retirement dollars and your exotic villa while your less fortunate colleagues battle to get to an equivalent point in their lives. You have your great lifestyle to protect, another guy has no where else to go and can't afford to lose his job and therein lies the companies advantage. We can never be united for these reasons. Even your grammar indicates that you don't consider yourself to be part of 'our' problem when you refer to yourself and us as being different.
Thanks for the advice though, I'm sure you flew a great visual approach in your day and fought all the good battles when it was in your interest.
Thanks for the advice though, I'm sure you flew a great visual approach in your day and fought all the good battles when it was in your interest.
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Much as I hate the patronising tone of CF above, he does make a valid point in that we will, however unwelcome it may be, have to fight to get anything out of EK. What he fails to mention is that the arena he fought in had rules and legislation based in a democracy and not an enviroment of 'make it up as you go along to suit the company' in a dictatorship. Whilst I don't underestimate the fight he may have been a part of, they used gloves. What he fails to mention is that once he fought his battle, he left his collegues who followed to fight on their own. What he fails to see is that as a DEC he is also part of the problem.
We have no respect from the company as we have always 'cooperated' with whatever they see fit to impliment. We are successfully divided, weakened by threats of dismissle and job insecurity...perfect, no Vaseline required.
To me it is a question of pride; pride in my profession and all the hard work I have put into it and whilst pride doesn't pay the bills, surely there must be a point where enough is enough?
There are things we could do. Some will think that they are ironically unprofessional, but the truth is that if we do not get our own house in order we will watch the T&Cs wear away even more. As for our main incentive to behave in anticipation of the profit share; we will be made to pay for the hike in oil, fog, increasing training costs etc. so how much do you think it'll be worth?
What can we do? We can start by voicing our opinions here and get the message out about what is going on here to potential new recruits. We could boycott any pilots meetings which are everything but 'open forum'. We could organise a group 'offshore' and attempt to affiliate with an organisation which could offer help and legal advice...just some thoughts.
It is such a shame that we are being treated with the contempt that we are, I sincerely hope that the tide will turn one day soon.
We have no respect from the company as we have always 'cooperated' with whatever they see fit to impliment. We are successfully divided, weakened by threats of dismissle and job insecurity...perfect, no Vaseline required.
To me it is a question of pride; pride in my profession and all the hard work I have put into it and whilst pride doesn't pay the bills, surely there must be a point where enough is enough?
There are things we could do. Some will think that they are ironically unprofessional, but the truth is that if we do not get our own house in order we will watch the T&Cs wear away even more. As for our main incentive to behave in anticipation of the profit share; we will be made to pay for the hike in oil, fog, increasing training costs etc. so how much do you think it'll be worth?
What can we do? We can start by voicing our opinions here and get the message out about what is going on here to potential new recruits. We could boycott any pilots meetings which are everything but 'open forum'. We could organise a group 'offshore' and attempt to affiliate with an organisation which could offer help and legal advice...just some thoughts.
It is such a shame that we are being treated with the contempt that we are, I sincerely hope that the tide will turn one day soon.
Last edited by Shake; 23rd Oct 2004 at 16:39.
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I for one am very f****d off with this situation, let's face it a lot of people come here because there are reasons to come here, better pay, better rosters etc.
What the company don't realise is that these reasons are slowly being removed, not that the local management care a jot they have different T&C's to us anyway.
I know it's been said many times but I do think that people will seriously start looking else where, I for one am considering going home.
"If I'm going to get screwed around I'd rather be screwed around at home" a great man once said....
Rant over=slightly lower blood T's & P's.
ps Dear Mr EVPFO can you explain how you said at the pilots meeting that if you changed to pilots t&c you would have to change everybody elses, yet I'm sure this hasn't happened this time.
What the company don't realise is that these reasons are slowly being removed, not that the local management care a jot they have different T&C's to us anyway.
I know it's been said many times but I do think that people will seriously start looking else where, I for one am considering going home.
"If I'm going to get screwed around I'd rather be screwed around at home" a great man once said....
Rant over=slightly lower blood T's & P's.
ps Dear Mr EVPFO can you explain how you said at the pilots meeting that if you changed to pilots t&c you would have to change everybody elses, yet I'm sure this hasn't happened this time.
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Gentlemen,
I do apologise if I came across as patronizing, it is not my intention. I still stand by my words, that it is not my problem because Emirates is not my career airline. It is my last stop before I only play golf. However, if required I will stand united with my collegues because it is for a just cause.
What I want to bring into this forum, is that we all have choices, and we all have things to lose and gain, but it is not management's fault in the abstract that takes away t&cs. It is our own inaction, or the fact that we say "well it is not so bad, it still is better than other places". I have worked with management before, and I know how they see us, and some times they are right. They see us as "big boys playing with big toys", and when they change the rules on us we cry and behave like spoiled children, but then we get over it and we say "Hey I still have my big toy and maybe if I do nothing they will leave me alone". Management is also smart in dividing us because they give to some of the boys extra playing money and time, and it is the same playtime and play money they take away from others.
What do we do then we say to the other smaller boys "Hey when you climb the ladder and get to where I am you will enjoy the benefits I have now" Guess what, this is the beginning of the end, because now the boys are divided, and everyones play time and money is in jeoperdy because those who lost it do not want to help those who got it, and those who got it, have no one to support them, so it is a vicious cycle.
We are all smart here, and if we want to find ways to improve our t&cs we can, and we do not have to wait for the market to dry up of pilots so no one applies, and then they will have to put the money up, and we do not need to have a formal union to get things done either...
We are not in the Airforce doing what is required of us by our country, dealing with honourable superiors who have come up the ranks and we therefore can expect a fair and honourable treatment.
We are working for a business organization, and we are just numbers, and just as big numbers add up for management to cut things because it makes a big difference so does it alslo work the other way aswell.
If the attitude we have, that this is all we can get ,and we do not deserve more, then in a free economy that is all we will get. We are professionals, and as such we need to negotiate our t&cs and not expect hand outs.
If you think, that Santa will come to town, or that great ol Maurice will get generous one of these days, and see what a great loving caring fun bunch of people we are and give us a rise because that would be just great, then welcome to the future of more cuts, and higher productivity with less money per hour, and maybe if we are lucky more total pay for some of the boys with big toys.
Cheers
I do apologise if I came across as patronizing, it is not my intention. I still stand by my words, that it is not my problem because Emirates is not my career airline. It is my last stop before I only play golf. However, if required I will stand united with my collegues because it is for a just cause.
What I want to bring into this forum, is that we all have choices, and we all have things to lose and gain, but it is not management's fault in the abstract that takes away t&cs. It is our own inaction, or the fact that we say "well it is not so bad, it still is better than other places". I have worked with management before, and I know how they see us, and some times they are right. They see us as "big boys playing with big toys", and when they change the rules on us we cry and behave like spoiled children, but then we get over it and we say "Hey I still have my big toy and maybe if I do nothing they will leave me alone". Management is also smart in dividing us because they give to some of the boys extra playing money and time, and it is the same playtime and play money they take away from others.
What do we do then we say to the other smaller boys "Hey when you climb the ladder and get to where I am you will enjoy the benefits I have now" Guess what, this is the beginning of the end, because now the boys are divided, and everyones play time and money is in jeoperdy because those who lost it do not want to help those who got it, and those who got it, have no one to support them, so it is a vicious cycle.
We are all smart here, and if we want to find ways to improve our t&cs we can, and we do not have to wait for the market to dry up of pilots so no one applies, and then they will have to put the money up, and we do not need to have a formal union to get things done either...
We are not in the Airforce doing what is required of us by our country, dealing with honourable superiors who have come up the ranks and we therefore can expect a fair and honourable treatment.
We are working for a business organization, and we are just numbers, and just as big numbers add up for management to cut things because it makes a big difference so does it alslo work the other way aswell.
If the attitude we have, that this is all we can get ,and we do not deserve more, then in a free economy that is all we will get. We are professionals, and as such we need to negotiate our t&cs and not expect hand outs.
If you think, that Santa will come to town, or that great ol Maurice will get generous one of these days, and see what a great loving caring fun bunch of people we are and give us a rise because that would be just great, then welcome to the future of more cuts, and higher productivity with less money per hour, and maybe if we are lucky more total pay for some of the boys with big toys.
Cheers
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Guys some of this I agree with and some of it I dont....howeverI am a F/o and am getting close to my three years.....if the conditions here continue to decline then command or not I am out of here...!...Why... because its not the contract I accepted when I joined .........and Emirates seemed determined to push us all to see where the breaking point is. My advise to you all is look at contract web sites ..if you are like me and dont have any children school, and can leave at will, rather than be trapped into EK way of life....... then go now while you can.
If the future of the EK ...ie.the F/O's just pack up and leave once the bond is clear to persue better options .....it might just send the correct message to Management.
Let them take on more DEC's and let them loose the experience base they are so proud of!!!! or are they? it appears not! If my conditions continue to erode as they seem to be.... ...there will be no complaining ..........no saying how unhappy I am .........its just going to be ........ciao from me!!!!!! and thats for sure.
Morph
If the future of the EK ...ie.the F/O's just pack up and leave once the bond is clear to persue better options .....it might just send the correct message to Management.
Let them take on more DEC's and let them loose the experience base they are so proud of!!!! or are they? it appears not! If my conditions continue to erode as they seem to be.... ...there will be no complaining ..........no saying how unhappy I am .........its just going to be ........ciao from me!!!!!! and thats for sure.
Morph
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Crapflyer.
You have a sound argument,however,you have two distinct and essential advantages:-
1)You fought,your corner,I feel with a "collective body" of fellow pilots,that had some form of dialogue,with the company.?
2)You already have financial security.
The vast majority,here,have no financial security,and we cannot be represented,collectively,for fear of any movenment that way,being seen as hostile or subversive.
Neither of which are intended,or desired,IMHO.No one truly wants hostility,I certainly dont,but I would value the opportunity to talk/or at least be consulted,before my working life is altered.
Its a very unfortunate situation,those of us who are not in your very fortunate position,to contemplate.
The really sad part is,EK have some superb talent,and life at EK could be so very good,with very little being done,to achieve that,again.IMHO.
I think EK has all the ingredients to be a great job,Im saddened,that the situation here is turning the way it is.
QB
You have a sound argument,however,you have two distinct and essential advantages:-
1)You fought,your corner,I feel with a "collective body" of fellow pilots,that had some form of dialogue,with the company.?
2)You already have financial security.
The vast majority,here,have no financial security,and we cannot be represented,collectively,for fear of any movenment that way,being seen as hostile or subversive.
Neither of which are intended,or desired,IMHO.No one truly wants hostility,I certainly dont,but I would value the opportunity to talk/or at least be consulted,before my working life is altered.
Its a very unfortunate situation,those of us who are not in your very fortunate position,to contemplate.
The really sad part is,EK have some superb talent,and life at EK could be so very good,with very little being done,to achieve that,again.IMHO.
I think EK has all the ingredients to be a great job,Im saddened,that the situation here is turning the way it is.
QB
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I couldn't agree more, bollocks to this, I for one have had about as much of this crap and sh1t management I can take, the same happened in my last company so I left and the same goes for here.
You can stick the FOM where the sun must defintely don't shine!!!!
so it's off to the job market, good luck guys.
You can stick the FOM where the sun must defintely don't shine!!!!
so it's off to the job market, good luck guys.
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Gentlemen,
I do agree that I was fortunate enough to be at home flying for the national carrier, and we did have a union to back us up.
What I want to pass on to you, is that there is no greener grass on the other side, and even if it looks greener it is probably because of more s..t on the ground to make it look so. Leaving for other pastures is not the way either. It is so easy to unite in one cause, being our wellbeing, our pockets, our retirement. No one will go away eating Emirates memmories, and A380, or A340s. My chilrden and now my grand children can expect some help from me, because we looked after our pockets collectively, and not individualy.
There are things pilots can do at Emirates even with no Union. Do not accept training positions, TCE, TCI, CRM etc. positions. Do not go forward for Recruitment positions. When they ask you why, you do not have to be forthcoming, state the obvious. You are quite happy to fly the line as a normal pilot, and only if the total package improves, will you consider more responsibilities. You believe that it is an enourmous responsibility to go forward and you need not just a better individual package(Training, Examiner), but a total package. As long as guys think they can get ahead and do a TCE, or a TCI and then leave, there is no future for anyone in Emirates. Realistically, no one will leave, and those who will, they will be doing at a great expense to seniority, family relocation, and a new start with different **** different place. The only way to win is to be steadfast and fight. Fighting is not just yelling and screaming or burning fuel. Fighting means respecting your colleagues and not accepting positions which are required by Emirates to continue its ambitious expansion. Make all pilots a vital part of the airline, and show management that we are united, and we are needed, not just for the day to day operation, but because if we do not agree to do training, and if we do not agree to do recruiting, then they will expand their aircraft on the apron.
Just so that must of you know the going rate for 777 trainers around the world, a six month contract goes for about 30000 US $ a month. I cannot see Emirates getting many of them...
Cheers
To those FOs willing to leave, I say do not waste your energy for the wrong cause, put it to work here were it matters most for you...
I do agree that I was fortunate enough to be at home flying for the national carrier, and we did have a union to back us up.
What I want to pass on to you, is that there is no greener grass on the other side, and even if it looks greener it is probably because of more s..t on the ground to make it look so. Leaving for other pastures is not the way either. It is so easy to unite in one cause, being our wellbeing, our pockets, our retirement. No one will go away eating Emirates memmories, and A380, or A340s. My chilrden and now my grand children can expect some help from me, because we looked after our pockets collectively, and not individualy.
There are things pilots can do at Emirates even with no Union. Do not accept training positions, TCE, TCI, CRM etc. positions. Do not go forward for Recruitment positions. When they ask you why, you do not have to be forthcoming, state the obvious. You are quite happy to fly the line as a normal pilot, and only if the total package improves, will you consider more responsibilities. You believe that it is an enourmous responsibility to go forward and you need not just a better individual package(Training, Examiner), but a total package. As long as guys think they can get ahead and do a TCE, or a TCI and then leave, there is no future for anyone in Emirates. Realistically, no one will leave, and those who will, they will be doing at a great expense to seniority, family relocation, and a new start with different **** different place. The only way to win is to be steadfast and fight. Fighting is not just yelling and screaming or burning fuel. Fighting means respecting your colleagues and not accepting positions which are required by Emirates to continue its ambitious expansion. Make all pilots a vital part of the airline, and show management that we are united, and we are needed, not just for the day to day operation, but because if we do not agree to do training, and if we do not agree to do recruiting, then they will expand their aircraft on the apron.
Just so that must of you know the going rate for 777 trainers around the world, a six month contract goes for about 30000 US $ a month. I cannot see Emirates getting many of them...
Cheers
To those FOs willing to leave, I say do not waste your energy for the wrong cause, put it to work here were it matters most for you...
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Crapflyer,
Even though you did start off with your initial post offending most who read it, your last entry has put some credibility back into where you are coming from. The vast majority don't want to hear from a retired pilot operating in a democracy giving us advice about an environment which you have little experience of (that could be considered smug). All of your previous experience has little relevance to what happens here. You have no vested interest in this company, obviously, as you state clearly in your posts. However, you are correct that if no-one volunteers for extra duty then we would all be in a better position. Unfortunately there will be plenty of people who are not like minded who will still put their hands up.
Even though you did start off with your initial post offending most who read it, your last entry has put some credibility back into where you are coming from. The vast majority don't want to hear from a retired pilot operating in a democracy giving us advice about an environment which you have little experience of (that could be considered smug). All of your previous experience has little relevance to what happens here. You have no vested interest in this company, obviously, as you state clearly in your posts. However, you are correct that if no-one volunteers for extra duty then we would all be in a better position. Unfortunately there will be plenty of people who are not like minded who will still put their hands up.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quad Boy
I have no desire to ever get anywhere near the management office floor in EK.
Clearly warning 14 has !
I’ve cut and pasted his proposals below.
Do you honestly think, any professional aviator, is going to tolerate the majority of this B S coming from the guy in the other seat.
A few items are wholly reasonable and always have been.
The rest are P**S poor CRM and diabolical displays of professionalism.
Imagine: “ Direct Costa ” Negative !
Flap 2 Gear down at 30 miles
Shall we take an extra ton to Doh, No !
-have maintenance crew explain the ADD page ( sometimes things are vague)
- taxi very slow ( 10 kts max)
- do not take any direct routings
- configure very early, burn that gas baby...
- insure all aspect of the dispatch are explained by the red cap
- Call sick according the FOM policy ( unfit to fly)
- take company fuel and divert as required
- when tankering, take company fuel figures and uplift 200 Kgs in Doha
- don't ever ever ever work on days off ( f*ck the 560 or the 800 Dhs)
I entirely agree with the majority of postings here and think this new policy and the way it’s been introduced sucks.
But, if warning 14 and his mates think you can change things by this nonsense, better think again.
I have no desire to ever get anywhere near the management office floor in EK.
Clearly warning 14 has !
I’ve cut and pasted his proposals below.
Do you honestly think, any professional aviator, is going to tolerate the majority of this B S coming from the guy in the other seat.
A few items are wholly reasonable and always have been.
The rest are P**S poor CRM and diabolical displays of professionalism.
Imagine: “ Direct Costa ” Negative !
Flap 2 Gear down at 30 miles
Shall we take an extra ton to Doh, No !
-have maintenance crew explain the ADD page ( sometimes things are vague)
- taxi very slow ( 10 kts max)
- do not take any direct routings
- configure very early, burn that gas baby...
- insure all aspect of the dispatch are explained by the red cap
- Call sick according the FOM policy ( unfit to fly)
- take company fuel and divert as required
- when tankering, take company fuel figures and uplift 200 Kgs in Doha
- don't ever ever ever work on days off ( f*ck the 560 or the 800 Dhs)
I entirely agree with the majority of postings here and think this new policy and the way it’s been introduced sucks.
But, if warning 14 and his mates think you can change things by this nonsense, better think again.
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devil's advocate: has any of you stopped to think n put themselves in the the seats behind those desks at the EOC? They are measured by what costs they can cut (especially with the oil crisis we all know about). It is happening throughout the company!
Did any of you see HHs message regarding the year-to-date profit erossion? Check the in-house publication or talk to someone in finance.
Take heart, these changes are subject to review.
Hats off to CF above for the words of wisdom
(& I solemnly swear not to be in management)
Did any of you see HHs message regarding the year-to-date profit erossion? Check the in-house publication or talk to someone in finance.
Take heart, these changes are subject to review.
Hats off to CF above for the words of wisdom
(& I solemnly swear not to be in management)
Join Date: May 2004
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Gulfa,your point taken,no offence,therefore intended.
Crap Flyer,valid reasoning,about declining positions,but if the post of TRI pays 5000 pcm,and the Line roster,degenerates,many will come forward,there is no association,therefore no unity,in public.
Those of us who came here,gave up good jobs,made commitments,and now to leave,its a big step,and that fact I feel is valid.
Were all trying to do what you have achieved,but you had certain advantages,that are simply non existant here,and whilst I have no axe to grind with DECs,as individuals,your presence is part of the rift,and fragmentation of the pilots.Everyone,is out for themselves,including you and your fellow DECs.
Obviously,EK management know this,and expoit it,now,but how will it end up in the long term,the treatment being meted out?
Not everyone,has the moral foresight you have,and many have come here,from less,open backgrounds,and will grab extra money at the expense of their colleagues.No question,and those who do are more than welcome.
It is classic divide and conquer.The line pilots will pay,long term for the improved life(for some) of the trainers.
I doubt there will be profit share,this year,but to introduce this pay "adjustment",at a time of expansion,and when people should be wanting to join EK,is completely baffling to me,I have met not one person,who flies in EK who sess this as anything other,than bad news.
With no credible,sensible non threatening response to offer,we are being punched up in the playground,minus our specs,with one hand tied behind our backs.
Unless I am missing something?Its put up,accept,or leave,and I didnt think that I for one would be facing that choice in EK.Never.
QB
Crap Flyer,valid reasoning,about declining positions,but if the post of TRI pays 5000 pcm,and the Line roster,degenerates,many will come forward,there is no association,therefore no unity,in public.
Those of us who came here,gave up good jobs,made commitments,and now to leave,its a big step,and that fact I feel is valid.
Were all trying to do what you have achieved,but you had certain advantages,that are simply non existant here,and whilst I have no axe to grind with DECs,as individuals,your presence is part of the rift,and fragmentation of the pilots.Everyone,is out for themselves,including you and your fellow DECs.
Obviously,EK management know this,and expoit it,now,but how will it end up in the long term,the treatment being meted out?
Not everyone,has the moral foresight you have,and many have come here,from less,open backgrounds,and will grab extra money at the expense of their colleagues.No question,and those who do are more than welcome.
It is classic divide and conquer.The line pilots will pay,long term for the improved life(for some) of the trainers.
I doubt there will be profit share,this year,but to introduce this pay "adjustment",at a time of expansion,and when people should be wanting to join EK,is completely baffling to me,I have met not one person,who flies in EK who sess this as anything other,than bad news.
With no credible,sensible non threatening response to offer,we are being punched up in the playground,minus our specs,with one hand tied behind our backs.
Unless I am missing something?Its put up,accept,or leave,and I didnt think that I for one would be facing that choice in EK.Never.
QB