Upgrades delayed again at EK
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MR8
LL was in the unfortunate position of disseminating the e-mail concerned and has probably had to endure a huge barrage of responses as a result of a decision made well above his head.
The underlying theme seems to be that both fleets are very short of guys in both seats but the 777 is far shorter than the Bus. It is only a short term fix to a long term and previously known problem.
LL was in the unfortunate position of disseminating the e-mail concerned and has probably had to endure a huge barrage of responses as a result of a decision made well above his head.
The underlying theme seems to be that both fleets are very short of guys in both seats but the 777 is far shorter than the Bus. It is only a short term fix to a long term and previously known problem.
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Guys .....its a mess
It seems that no matter which way they go ......... the company is going to pi$$ someone off. (me included
)
However as a group we need to look at what is happening here.
They guys who have had thier commands postponed because the fast track guys are going to the 777 is a reflection on manpower only. I feel for them......its frustrating and cant imagine what they are thinking or feeling.
EK are so short of pilots they are unable to do both.
EK cannot have 18 guys on 330 command course ..........and have AB F/O's go to the 777 at the same time. .........so they had to make a descision.......... they need captains now on the 777 fleet because DEC's are not comimng....(thank someomne for that
....... right on!!!!)
and the quickest way to crew the 777 ..........is to use all the Accelerated guys they can find on the the AB fleet......and move them across to the 777 asap.
As we all know........ the upgrade policy will only allow the guys who have previous command time (2000hrs or more) above 55tns or bigger..... to be accelerated.
If you are without this time in the log book then you have to be in EK a minimum of three years before an upgrade check can be done............no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot do a command check until the day you have been here three years.
seniority or date of joining.......doesnt come into play.....in fact it has nothing to do with it....its about getting captains on the 777 as quickly as possible and checked out as soon as possible. Accelerated guys are not constrained by the 3 year rule.....that is it.
The company is restrained by its own Draconion upgrade policy.
The question is ...........why hasnt this been recognised before now?
Just for a moment try to look at what is happening and take the emotion out of it.......I have............ and no matter what you think..........no matter who you call ............it is not change.
The payrise has proven it......we have two choices
TR
(not my best post...
)
It seems that no matter which way they go ......... the company is going to pi$$ someone off. (me included
)However as a group we need to look at what is happening here.
They guys who have had thier commands postponed because the fast track guys are going to the 777 is a reflection on manpower only. I feel for them......its frustrating and cant imagine what they are thinking or feeling.
EK are so short of pilots they are unable to do both.
EK cannot have 18 guys on 330 command course ..........and have AB F/O's go to the 777 at the same time. .........so they had to make a descision.......... they need captains now on the 777 fleet because DEC's are not comimng....(thank someomne for that
....... right on!!!!)and the quickest way to crew the 777 ..........is to use all the Accelerated guys they can find on the the AB fleet......and move them across to the 777 asap.
As we all know........ the upgrade policy will only allow the guys who have previous command time (2000hrs or more) above 55tns or bigger..... to be accelerated.
If you are without this time in the log book then you have to be in EK a minimum of three years before an upgrade check can be done............no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot do a command check until the day you have been here three years.
seniority or date of joining.......doesnt come into play.....in fact it has nothing to do with it....its about getting captains on the 777 as quickly as possible and checked out as soon as possible. Accelerated guys are not constrained by the 3 year rule.....that is it.
The company is restrained by its own Draconion upgrade policy.
The question is ...........why hasnt this been recognised before now?
Just for a moment try to look at what is happening and take the emotion out of it.......I have............ and no matter what you think..........no matter who you call ............it is not change.
The payrise has proven it......we have two choices
TR
(not my best post...
)
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EK cannot have 18 guys on 330 command course ..........and have AB F/O's go to the 777 at the same time. .........so they had to make a descision.......... they need captains now on the 777 fleet because DEC's are not comimng....(thank someomne for that ....... right on!!!!)
Boy, that was tough.
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Rough guess, looking at target block and the blocking window, we are short 15-20% with aircraft arriving every month. To stand still we need 200-280 pilots if the company is serious about flying to a 780 hr/year target for fatigue reduction.
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hey Bus canuck
Good point but what about the fact that they are needed on the AB and will be rereleased as soon as possible. They are already tagged for the Bus upgrade and my guess is havent got enough 3 yrs guys to replace them by September......its just a delay not cancellation. And remember all F/O's have to be peplaced by new recruits......where are they coming from?
If you read my post .....if this probelem had been addressed at the start of the year with a proper transition upgrade policy, instead of that invitation to swap fleets we wouldnt be having this debate now.
The upside is that ..........co 's are moving ......and for every pilot that gets an upgrade weather its a three year guy or one of the acclerated guys ........we are all getting closer to a command.
Has it been longer than 3 1/2 years to command at EK .....i am unsure.....most of the new captains I fly with have all been 3 yrs or so.....no one has been longer.
Just for a moment look outside the command issue.....look at the bigger pic.....its not pretty........aircraft coming ...no crew!.....flights not departing....no crew!.....aircraft parked ....no crew! roster at the end of the month....no crew!
they have to do something fast
TR
Good point but what about the fact that they are needed on the AB and will be rereleased as soon as possible. They are already tagged for the Bus upgrade and my guess is havent got enough 3 yrs guys to replace them by September......its just a delay not cancellation. And remember all F/O's have to be peplaced by new recruits......where are they coming from?
If you read my post .....if this probelem had been addressed at the start of the year with a proper transition upgrade policy, instead of that invitation to swap fleets we wouldnt be having this debate now.
The upside is that ..........co 's are moving ......and for every pilot that gets an upgrade weather its a three year guy or one of the acclerated guys ........we are all getting closer to a command.
Has it been longer than 3 1/2 years to command at EK .....i am unsure.....most of the new captains I fly with have all been 3 yrs or so.....no one has been longer.
Just for a moment look outside the command issue.....look at the bigger pic.....its not pretty........aircraft coming ...no crew!.....flights not departing....no crew!.....aircraft parked ....no crew! roster at the end of the month....no crew!
they have to do something fast
TR
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Good point but what about the fact that they are needed on the AB and will be rereleased as soon as possible. They are already tagged for the Bus upgrade and my guess is havent got enough 3 yrs guys to replace them by September
The upside is that ..........co 's are moving ......and for every pilot that gets an upgrade weather its a three year guy or one of the acclerated guys ........we are all getting closer to a command.
Maybe in theory it's better than a DEC, but the foot-prints over the back feel about the same. Salary and benefits are affected the same too!
they have to do something fast
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Personally I think they should upgrade Airbus FO's on the Bus, short course, then transfer Airbus Captains who probably have a 900 hour problem to the Boeing. The long transition should take care of the 900 hours problem. My theory anyway for what it's worth.
Keep the blue side up fellas.....................
Keep the blue side up fellas.....................
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No worries Bus
I was just trying to make some sense out of all this caos........not sure what to make of it all.... mmmmm..........I was hoping there may have been some logic to what is going on ........but ......seems not
What to do ....What to do!!!!
TR
I was just trying to make some sense out of all this caos........not sure what to make of it all....
mmmmm..........I was hoping there may have been some logic to what is going on ........but ......seems not What to do ....What to do!!!!
TR
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TR are U Management??????
Good point but what about the fact that they are needed on the AB and will be rereleased as soon as possible. They are already tagged for the Bus upgrade and my guess is havent got enough 3 yrs guys to replace them by September......its just a delay not cancellation.
Normally your posts are quite good, but I think that you have lost the plot on this one.
Let us not be emotional and set aside the long term financial implications to these guys who have been delayed. And the fact that these same MANAGERS whom could not predict this was going to happen (when it was blatently obvious to everyone else) are going to pick up their 2x bonuses for mis-managing the situation and look at the facts.
AAR letter dated 24th December in relation to Upgrades said and I quote:
"The company will use NORMAL upgrades as the first choice to provide Captains for the fleets."
"First Officers who have qualifications for upgrade will be considered for TRANSITION UPGRADE on to a new aircraft type."
Also there are plenty of FO's coming up to their 3 year point in the next few months and whom have the hours to meet the UPgrade requirements for the BUS. Even more if they allow (ala 777) people to start their course to be finished on the 3 year mark.
Even if there was a shortage of Bus FO's with the requirements wouldn't it be better to use the jumpers (whoops acelerated) after they have used up all the ones with the criteria whom have been here longer??????
Explain to me the justification given the above points for pomotion out of senioriy (see FOM for definition). There can be none except that they like you have lost the plot.
Correct me if I am being simplistic. I for one am seriously pissed off at being bypassed by pilots that have been in EK less time than me(in some cases 1+1/2 years less), have less Total flying than me, less command time than me, but had the fortune to fly an aircraft just over 55T on the same routes I flew in my trusty Turboprop and less widebody time.
Time to pull your head out of the sand TR.
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The situation sure is ridiculous. I have not experienced a flight cancellation due to crew shortage yet. However, the last three flights I have done have been down to the wire as far as finding crew is concerned, including last minute changes going on in CBC. Has anyone personally experienced a cancellation?
I know at least five guys personally who are on reduced flying due to hour limitations and I am not far off myself. With this kind of crisis management going on, it is only a matter of time before the whole thing flicks in. I know of one friend with chronic fatigue and another sick due to related issues.
It is past a joke getting called at all times of the day and night by scheduling asking for help. Even getting an off base request approved for off days doesn't seem to deter the incessant phone calls. I used to screen the calls. Now I answer and make it clear that I am not willing to help. The deals being offered by scheduling are becoming more and more extravagant, which is of course also not sustainable, but until we say no, nothing is going to change.
I do not mind helping out a company in an hour of need, as crisis can affect us all, but when the "hour of need" stretches into days and I am so obviously being exploited, it is hard to keep from getting seriously pi$$ed off.
Anyway, I await a reactionary response to the crew shortage from management which is bound to further demoralise staff.
I know at least five guys personally who are on reduced flying due to hour limitations and I am not far off myself. With this kind of crisis management going on, it is only a matter of time before the whole thing flicks in. I know of one friend with chronic fatigue and another sick due to related issues.
It is past a joke getting called at all times of the day and night by scheduling asking for help. Even getting an off base request approved for off days doesn't seem to deter the incessant phone calls. I used to screen the calls. Now I answer and make it clear that I am not willing to help. The deals being offered by scheduling are becoming more and more extravagant, which is of course also not sustainable, but until we say no, nothing is going to change.
I do not mind helping out a company in an hour of need, as crisis can affect us all, but when the "hour of need" stretches into days and I am so obviously being exploited, it is hard to keep from getting seriously pi$$ed off.
Anyway, I await a reactionary response to the crew shortage from management which is bound to further demoralise staff.
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Tail Rota - You are off the mark.
There is no sense to this policy.
There are plenty of bus fos to send across to the Boeing. Probably around 50+ that have now been here more than 3 years. However, the management prefer to further infuriate one of the groups that has worked the hardest.
With the letter dated Dec24 last year, nobody could do a transition upgrade without a freeze period unless they were DEC qualified.
It is the fact that there is now another, but not official policy change in play that allows accelerated fos go across.
Management seems to be able to adjust any requirement to hours, experience as so forth unless it has a positive fallout for the "normal" bus fos.
Funny though, you would think a management team with the acromym EADS would be more in favor of bus fos, instead they seem to approach the issues more in the form of the Marquis de SADE
There are plenty of bus fos to send across to the Boeing. Probably around 50+ that have now been here more than 3 years. However, the management prefer to further infuriate one of the groups that has worked the hardest.
With the letter dated Dec24 last year, nobody could do a transition upgrade without a freeze period unless they were DEC qualified.
It is the fact that there is now another, but not official policy change in play that allows accelerated fos go across.
Management seems to be able to adjust any requirement to hours, experience as so forth unless it has a positive fallout for the "normal" bus fos.
Funny though, you would think a management team with the acromym EADS would be more in favor of bus fos, instead they seem to approach the issues more in the form of the Marquis de SADE
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Aircav
mate.........I am not Management and dont have planes to be.
and yep I may have lost the plot on this one........so explain to me what the hell is going on.......
No one can predict anything anymore.......as far as AAR 's upgrade policy goes .......what was that stupid 6 month rule for guys to transfer to the 777 ranks.....it was a joke
EK cannot be trusted. I too thought it was 3 yr guys.......accelerated guys......then DEC's. at the moment it seems like anything goes.
one thing is for sure DEC's are here to stay.......if they can get them
how can dropping the DEC total time to 8000hrs be of benefit to the experience levels at EK........most F/O's have more total time than that.........they are doing thier best to pi$$ off as many guys as they can......its the oldest trick in the book........divide and conquer.
Its a mess Aircav..... .....your post is noted.......
I think the boys on the "EK payrise forum" have the right ideas.......it may be relevant to this post as well
TR
mate.........I am not Management and dont have planes to be.
and yep I may have lost the plot on this one........so explain to me what the hell is going on.......
No one can predict anything anymore.......as far as AAR 's upgrade policy goes .......what was that stupid 6 month rule for guys to transfer to the 777 ranks.....it was a joke
EK cannot be trusted. I too thought it was 3 yr guys.......accelerated guys......then DEC's. at the moment it seems like anything goes.
one thing is for sure DEC's are here to stay.......if they can get them
how can dropping the DEC total time to 8000hrs be of benefit to the experience levels at EK........most F/O's have more total time than that.........they are doing thier best to pi$$ off as many guys as they can......its the oldest trick in the book........divide and conquer.
Its a mess Aircav..... .....your post is noted.......
I think the boys on the "EK payrise forum" have the right ideas.......it may be relevant to this post as well
TR
To think how different the outcome of this decision would have been if they sent the 18 guys to the Boeing. It would cost the company absolutely nothing, but the improvement in moral would have been unbelievable. Its only a few days in the SIM to get the 330 only FOs to replace the 340 ones.
If only we could get some grown ups to work in management. It seems hard to believe they can not see that these shaftings are not good for recruitment etc.
Don
If only we could get some grown ups to work in management. It seems hard to believe they can not see that these shaftings are not good for recruitment etc.
Don
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TR,
That is the point I was trying to make!!! There is no common sense to the policy and it cannot be justified. In fact the silence from above and the totally underhand way it is being implemented actually confirms this.
Sorry if I sounded a bit tart but I am seriously pi**ed off at the moment, so take no offence, after all we are batting for the same team I hope.
To all you do-gooders out there, I refer you to EKLAWYERS post. Let us try and stick together on this as it is the only way we will ever see any improvement in the attitude of our managers.
Do not sacrifice short term gain for long term pain.
Keep being sh*f*ted (Sorry I meant keep discovering)
That is the point I was trying to make!!! There is no common sense to the policy and it cannot be justified. In fact the silence from above and the totally underhand way it is being implemented actually confirms this.
Sorry if I sounded a bit tart but I am seriously pi**ed off at the moment, so take no offence, after all we are batting for the same team I hope.
To all you do-gooders out there, I refer you to EKLAWYERS post. Let us try and stick together on this as it is the only way we will ever see any improvement in the attitude of our managers.
Do not sacrifice short term gain for long term pain.
Keep being sh*f*ted
(Sorry I meant keep discovering)