EK 777 rosters
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EK 777 rosters
I've got an interview with EK in April, and have been told that if hired it would probably be on the 777.
I've heard a lot about people flying 95 hours a month, only 8 days off, etc, so my question is for 777 pilots at EK:
1. On average, how many days off are you guys getting on the 777?
2. Are guys really flying 95 hours a month on the 777? If so, is that mandatory, or are they doing that with voluntary overtime?
3. Any chance of posting a sample 777 roster here (if you have one in electronic format)?
Thanks,
GoForIt
I've heard a lot about people flying 95 hours a month, only 8 days off, etc, so my question is for 777 pilots at EK:
1. On average, how many days off are you guys getting on the 777?
2. Are guys really flying 95 hours a month on the 777? If so, is that mandatory, or are they doing that with voluntary overtime?
3. Any chance of posting a sample 777 roster here (if you have one in electronic format)?
Thanks,
GoForIt
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voluntary overtime?
To answer your questions, the rosters will probably stabilise around the 85 a month mark, with about 9-10 days off. That is from senior fleet management and not idle gossip.
You will spend most of your time at home recuperating from the effects of having flown over countless time zones and EKs schedules are such that you cannot catch up on your sleep whilst away. Inevitably you will be somewhere else at local nighttime, but Dubai daytime so sleep is unlikely. Most of us sleep on the flight deck just to catch up.
It's your choice mate, but have a good read through these pages and don't forget to read the good points as well as the bad before making a final choice. The sad thing is that there is little good written here, so searching for the positives may be a challenge.
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Originally Posted by GoForIt
I've got an interview with EK in April, and have been told that if hired it would probably be on the 777.
I've heard a lot about people flying 95 hours a month, only 8 days off, etc, so my question is for 777 pilots at EK:
1. On average, how many days off are you guys getting on the 777?
2. Are guys really flying 95 hours a month on the 777? If so, is that mandatory, or are they doing that with voluntary overtime?
3. Any chance of posting a sample 777 roster here (if you have one in electronic format)?
Thanks,
GoForIt
I've heard a lot about people flying 95 hours a month, only 8 days off, etc, so my question is for 777 pilots at EK:
1. On average, how many days off are you guys getting on the 777?
2. Are guys really flying 95 hours a month on the 777? If so, is that mandatory, or are they doing that with voluntary overtime?
3. Any chance of posting a sample 777 roster here (if you have one in electronic format)?
Thanks,
GoForIt
Captains are flying their butts off,while FO's are still under 80 hrs.
Expect not only to fly avg. 90 hrs a month,but also to be called on your days off,leave(if any)etc,etc.
Sorry I'm not trying to scare you,it's just the truth
Aha and don't forget:do not believe a single word of what they tell U at the Interview
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Working Hard
I'm just a lowly bus driver but I know alot of 777 guys. If you don't like "building hours" and spending weeks away then this airline isn't for you. I've got a week off this month and I'm still rostered for 87 hours and 20 mins block time. Ten days away is not uncommon for the Boeing guys. They all end up bidding against those long "Singpore then onto Oz and goodness knows where" type of layovers.
We've been told in a recent memo that the 777 will face a busy summer and the Boeing Boys will start working like the bus already is. We used to have 8 days off a month as the rostering target. But this is supposed to change because it was causing huge sickness problems (no surprise there then). The new target will be 9.5, but that won't be acheivable until we are properly up to manpower strength which seems to be a distant goal.
The simple answer is yes you'll work hard. Yes you'll be away alot.
Hope that helps
Scudsy
We've been told in a recent memo that the 777 will face a busy summer and the Boeing Boys will start working like the bus already is. We used to have 8 days off a month as the rostering target. But this is supposed to change because it was causing huge sickness problems (no surprise there then). The new target will be 9.5, but that won't be acheivable until we are properly up to manpower strength which seems to be a distant goal.
The simple answer is yes you'll work hard. Yes you'll be away alot.
Hope that helps
Scudsy
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Hey Scudsy,
Being rostered 87 hrs is just a figure on your roster. I heard the productivity reqd from each pilot is 80 hrs per month. With leave for a week your flt hrs should be around 60 hrs. You are doing an extra 27 hrs with only about 5 hrs overtime. A strong case to adjust your roster accordingly!! With leave credit (2.5 hrs/day) alloted in the past you would have had 104.5 credit hrs which paints a whole different picture. You have to think about who is getting screwed in the deal. Work is NOT charity!!!
GoForIt, as far as rosters go, that will depend on whether you are chasing hrs or lifestyle. If you are an aircraft geek, go for it. If you have a young family, look elsewhere. Good Luck with the interview.
Being rostered 87 hrs is just a figure on your roster. I heard the productivity reqd from each pilot is 80 hrs per month. With leave for a week your flt hrs should be around 60 hrs. You are doing an extra 27 hrs with only about 5 hrs overtime. A strong case to adjust your roster accordingly!! With leave credit (2.5 hrs/day) alloted in the past you would have had 104.5 credit hrs which paints a whole different picture. You have to think about who is getting screwed in the deal. Work is NOT charity!!!
GoForIt, as far as rosters go, that will depend on whether you are chasing hrs or lifestyle. If you are an aircraft geek, go for it. If you have a young family, look elsewhere. Good Luck with the interview.
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Speaking to a colleague on the 777.
two weeks leave this month and 65 stick hours.
We were given and "assurance" that this wouldn't happen when they took away our leave credit.
Under our previous pay structure, that was removed without consultation, that would have been around 100 credit hours, resulting in nearly 8000 dhs overtime. Under our new enlightened structure it results in 65 hours and no overtime.
Make your own decision on the credibility of anything EK management/recruiting tells you.
My general position is that if their lips are moving, they're lying!
two weeks leave this month and 65 stick hours.
We were given and "assurance" that this wouldn't happen when they took away our leave credit.
Under our previous pay structure, that was removed without consultation, that would have been around 100 credit hours, resulting in nearly 8000 dhs overtime. Under our new enlightened structure it results in 65 hours and no overtime.
Make your own decision on the credibility of anything EK management/recruiting tells you.
My general position is that if their lips are moving, they're lying!
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Under our previous pay structure, that was removed without consultation, that would have been around 100 credit hours, resulting in nearly 8000 dhs overtime. Under our new enlightened structure it results in 65 hours and no overtime.
More Vaseline please nurse.....
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to all 777 pilots
Just curious, with 80 or 90 hrs a month, how many landings are you doing ?
in my sector this give an average of 69 landings a month.....
Whats more tiring? jet lags or landings ?....just curious.
in my sector this give an average of 69 landings a month.....
Whats more tiring? jet lags or landings ?....just curious.
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SecurID, no point getting all flabagasted in your post. What can we do about it? Well, apart from my suggestion, not an awful lot mate. No union, no work to rule (some of the guys need overtime to get by in DXB or don't mind getting it up the ar5e every month) and with the arrogant attitude of the management, they don't really care if you go.
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Few sectors vs Many sectors?
Hi Mupepe,
A very good question and also very difficult to answer because it depends on the type of person you are. I was in the short haul business first (as most of us were) and I thought I knew what long haul would be like. Most of my friends (like myself) have been surprised to find out that the "tiredness" or fatigue (if I am allowed to say that word) is not what we expected it to be. It's different but not necessarily better OR worse.
Also, we all have different ways of getting over it. I am off to bed and to hell with all the noise around me. Some of my friends battle through the day and stay awake. It depends on your personal survival technique. Some guys I thought would love long haul have already gone home. Others have surprised me with their change of lifestyle and prefer it. You just can't tell who will like it and who won't.
No one knows in advance if they'll like charter timing departures and ULH flights until they actually try it! It could be a costly mistake, as some have found out. Or else it's just different (which is my take on things).
I think you still end up tired doing the job, it's just a different sort of tired. I find long haul is less professionally rewarding. That "job well done" feeling isn't there as often because you don't fly as many sectors. Just MY opinion, I know some will think otherwise. And I feel I make more mistakes than I used to. That is annoying, but I've adapted to it and I can live with it.
Is that any help?
Scudsy
A very good question and also very difficult to answer because it depends on the type of person you are. I was in the short haul business first (as most of us were) and I thought I knew what long haul would be like. Most of my friends (like myself) have been surprised to find out that the "tiredness" or fatigue (if I am allowed to say that word) is not what we expected it to be. It's different but not necessarily better OR worse.
Also, we all have different ways of getting over it. I am off to bed and to hell with all the noise around me. Some of my friends battle through the day and stay awake. It depends on your personal survival technique. Some guys I thought would love long haul have already gone home. Others have surprised me with their change of lifestyle and prefer it. You just can't tell who will like it and who won't.
No one knows in advance if they'll like charter timing departures and ULH flights until they actually try it! It could be a costly mistake, as some have found out. Or else it's just different (which is my take on things).
I think you still end up tired doing the job, it's just a different sort of tired. I find long haul is less professionally rewarding. That "job well done" feeling isn't there as often because you don't fly as many sectors. Just MY opinion, I know some will think otherwise. And I feel I make more mistakes than I used to. That is annoying, but I've adapted to it and I can live with it.
Is that any help?
Scudsy
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to Scudsy and others
thanks for your reply, I see your point of view, my only experience in long haul is when I'm in the back of a/c trapped in poor seating situation..... not an ideal reference.
I need to set my mind quickly as I've interview next april with EK.....still not decided yet
I've aready been in DXB and the area didn't impress me very much.
Most posts reads on pprune are not very positive in order to make a decision
Still need more info about flying sectors and feedback about your tireness etc..
thank you and keep the blue side up !
I need to set my mind quickly as I've interview next april with EK.....still not decided yet
I've aready been in DXB and the area didn't impress me very much.
Most posts reads on pprune are not very positive in order to make a decision
Still need more info about flying sectors and feedback about your tireness etc..
thank you and keep the blue side up !
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Hi mupepe,
"Still need more info about flying sectors and feedback about your tireness etc.."
Here is some feedback to your statement. The fatigue factor will continue as long as the Exec Vice Pres of Engr & Flt Ops states that the crews are used to fatigue so problem solved. Go figure!
Good luck if you get the job.
"Still need more info about flying sectors and feedback about your tireness etc.."
Here is some feedback to your statement. The fatigue factor will continue as long as the Exec Vice Pres of Engr & Flt Ops states that the crews are used to fatigue so problem solved. Go figure!
Good luck if you get the job.
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I have read most of the posts on EK, and they seem to be all negative, or just honest. I am also applying for a DEC position and am wondering if it is a mistake. Currently a Capt. for a US carrier, but thought that the tax free $$ would make up for the change in lifestyle. No kids and a wife who is flexible. I have flown internationally-so I think I know the fatigue issue. Inputs from anyone would be appreciated. Thanks
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I have flown internationally-so I think I know the fatigue issue.
Most of my friends here have been to the clinic because of fatigue related issues. Can you say that about your US colleages?
Currently a Capt. for a US carrier, but thought that the tax free $$ would make up for the change in lifestyle.
[Disclaimer: I am stronging against the idea of DECs - EK does not need them and they are not welcome. However, I know it is EK's fault, not yours.]
ZANDER As a DEC you will not be welcomed by most F/O's who are being stuffed by the company. Most have command experience and are more than capable of command. If you come, most realise its the company who is recruiting you. but remember, most of the F/o's will resent you. Just the facts!! If you don't come and many others do not come they will have no choice but to change their bizarre policy on upgrades.
EGGW
EGGW
Last edited by EGGW; 8th Mar 2006 at 01:59.
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VORSCHIT
I dont know what policy you are reading, but as far as I know CREDIT has not changed and we still get CREDIT for Leave when the roster is built. The only think that has changed is that "overtime" is calculated on Block and not credit.
On that note, the credit for Leave is 2.5hrs/day, which is too low if we are expected to fly 90hrs months.
I dont know what policy you are reading, but as far as I know CREDIT has not changed and we still get CREDIT for Leave when the roster is built. The only think that has changed is that "overtime" is calculated on Block and not credit.
On that note, the credit for Leave is 2.5hrs/day, which is too low if we are expected to fly 90hrs months.
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UnDA
Although as you point out, credit still does exist, as we all know the company doesn't give a rats a** about "credit" anylonger. They are strictly concerned about "hard time" as this is what the budget is predicated on. The credit system has been left in place for workload sharing ...but it works only in theory. In reality if you take examples of rosters with leave or other "soft" credits there is still a disparity between monthly credit of those individuals, and with that of a non-leave/soft credit pilot. Other companies utilising the ADOPT system publish the credit hour "window" each month that all rosters will fall between (usually a 3-5 hour spread), and final rosters do not fall outside those boundaries to ensure workload sharing based on credit. EK chooses not to publish these figures perhaps for obvious reasons. We have no idea each month what the "window" is, nor can we easily compare with others to ensure distribution compliance (not that that would make any difference). They need to extract maximum hard hours as possible from the guys as it is obvious we are deftly short of crew. Hard hours is what keeps the aircraft flying, not credit hours. Flight cancellations are the final proof of understaffing. The levels of individuals leaving EK indicates many have reached their personal "limit" of tollerance. And this is even before the "pilot shortage" has really developed yet!
Although as you point out, credit still does exist, as we all know the company doesn't give a rats a** about "credit" anylonger. They are strictly concerned about "hard time" as this is what the budget is predicated on. The credit system has been left in place for workload sharing ...but it works only in theory. In reality if you take examples of rosters with leave or other "soft" credits there is still a disparity between monthly credit of those individuals, and with that of a non-leave/soft credit pilot. Other companies utilising the ADOPT system publish the credit hour "window" each month that all rosters will fall between (usually a 3-5 hour spread), and final rosters do not fall outside those boundaries to ensure workload sharing based on credit. EK chooses not to publish these figures perhaps for obvious reasons. We have no idea each month what the "window" is, nor can we easily compare with others to ensure distribution compliance (not that that would make any difference). They need to extract maximum hard hours as possible from the guys as it is obvious we are deftly short of crew. Hard hours is what keeps the aircraft flying, not credit hours. Flight cancellations are the final proof of understaffing. The levels of individuals leaving EK indicates many have reached their personal "limit" of tollerance. And this is even before the "pilot shortage" has really developed yet!
Last edited by Outta Heresoon; 7th Mar 2006 at 11:28.
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Leave is credited at 2.5 hours/day.
However that credit value was originally calculated on an expected 80+ hour month, not 90-95 hours as is the norm on the Airbus MFF.
So if the build requires, say 93 hours per crew member as an average, then somebody with 6 days leave can expect to do around 78 hours flying, that also being the productivity threshold for a 31 day month.
This means that the company gets the leave for free. Great for the accountants. Not so great for the crews with fatigue/lifestyle issues.
But the manual roster insertions do not take into account the 2.5 hours/day, they are added at the whim of the scheduler who will be trying to cover flights with insufficient crew numbers.
However that credit value was originally calculated on an expected 80+ hour month, not 90-95 hours as is the norm on the Airbus MFF.
So if the build requires, say 93 hours per crew member as an average, then somebody with 6 days leave can expect to do around 78 hours flying, that also being the productivity threshold for a 31 day month.
This means that the company gets the leave for free. Great for the accountants. Not so great for the crews with fatigue/lifestyle issues.
But the manual roster insertions do not take into account the 2.5 hours/day, they are added at the whim of the scheduler who will be trying to cover flights with insufficient crew numbers.
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EGGW
You on the loopy juice mate? Your spelling took a decided turn for the worse towards the end.
Regarding your post, both you and I and many others came here in good faith regarding fast track and upgrade policy. Some might call it naivety on our part to have believed the rhetoric and verbal assurances during interview but it's not until you've joined that you realise those words mean nothing whatsoever. It's not just Emirates. It sums up Dubai. People tell you what you want to hear.
Policies and rules are changed for operational requirements and unless it forms a fundermental part of our contract, there's very little we can do about it. We have to accept what's given or leave and that's why guys are now starting to go elsewhere.
And while our new drivers earn 4.5 dhs an hour overtime to boost their 980dhs monthly basic, working 14 hours+ a day, 7 days a week, I wonder if the top managment receive a % of the savings from their yearly budget if they avoid reaching them?
You on the loopy juice mate? Your spelling took a decided turn for the worse towards the end.
Regarding your post, both you and I and many others came here in good faith regarding fast track and upgrade policy. Some might call it naivety on our part to have believed the rhetoric and verbal assurances during interview but it's not until you've joined that you realise those words mean nothing whatsoever. It's not just Emirates. It sums up Dubai. People tell you what you want to hear.
Policies and rules are changed for operational requirements and unless it forms a fundermental part of our contract, there's very little we can do about it. We have to accept what's given or leave and that's why guys are now starting to go elsewhere.
And while our new drivers earn 4.5 dhs an hour overtime to boost their 980dhs monthly basic, working 14 hours+ a day, 7 days a week, I wonder if the top managment receive a % of the savings from their yearly budget if they avoid reaching them?