124,9 New request radio show
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Trimotor, exactly how can you guess how far downwind you have to go, and as such approximately how many track miles you have to go when you have no way of knowing what the required spacing is. With Dubai operating with single runway ops, they may have a backlog of departures they need to get away, to allow you to have somewhere to park. Because of this they may need extra space between you and the guy ahead of you.
I am not working Dubai App but on area we are more and more often having pilots second guessing our instructions based on the almighty TCAS. While pilots having situational awareness is a good thing, it is a right royal pain being questioned, "why am I still being vectored, are we number 2 to that aircraft 11 NM's in our 2 o'clock". If you are being vectored, our workload has usually increased, so we don't have time to tell you that we require 15 NM or 20 NM spacing, or that the aircraft ahead is about to be reduced to 250 KT's because of the slow F50 ahead of him, that you haven't seen on your almighty TCAS. Sometimes it is nice just to let the ATC do their job, and I won't try and tell you how to do your job. TCAS is nice tool, but it is not a radar screen, and you don't have a radar ATC rating, so if you are on a vector, or you have been slowed, we have good reason.
Also one last thing. Just because the R/T is quiet doesn't mean we are not talking our arses off on land lines, getting/passing revisions to one of the 6 neigbouring sectors/FIR's. So if you make a call, and we tell you to standby, thats what it means, STANDBY, and we don't need an acknowledgment that you copied the call to standby, that sort of defeats the purpose.
I am not working Dubai App but on area we are more and more often having pilots second guessing our instructions based on the almighty TCAS. While pilots having situational awareness is a good thing, it is a right royal pain being questioned, "why am I still being vectored, are we number 2 to that aircraft 11 NM's in our 2 o'clock". If you are being vectored, our workload has usually increased, so we don't have time to tell you that we require 15 NM or 20 NM spacing, or that the aircraft ahead is about to be reduced to 250 KT's because of the slow F50 ahead of him, that you haven't seen on your almighty TCAS. Sometimes it is nice just to let the ATC do their job, and I won't try and tell you how to do your job. TCAS is nice tool, but it is not a radar screen, and you don't have a radar ATC rating, so if you are on a vector, or you have been slowed, we have good reason.
Also one last thing. Just because the R/T is quiet doesn't mean we are not talking our arses off on land lines, getting/passing revisions to one of the 6 neigbouring sectors/FIR's. So if you make a call, and we tell you to standby, thats what it means, STANDBY, and we don't need an acknowledgment that you copied the call to standby, that sort of defeats the purpose.
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Good post guys
Regarding TCAS. Just remember that my radar picture is taken from a stationary radar head with all the targets moving relative to it. Your TCAS picture has you moving too, so you don't get the proper picture and you only pick up a speed differential reletive to yourself after a while. My groundspeed readout is immediate. If you are on your own with aircraft way ahead, sure ask for a speed if it will help you, but please don't ask for an extra 9 knots if the one ahead is 5 to 10 miles ahead of you. It increases my workload watching you so you don't get too close, as your speeds aren't matched, and will end up causing the vertical + horizonatal seps we were on about earlier.
Cheers
Regarding TCAS. Just remember that my radar picture is taken from a stationary radar head with all the targets moving relative to it. Your TCAS picture has you moving too, so you don't get the proper picture and you only pick up a speed differential reletive to yourself after a while. My groundspeed readout is immediate. If you are on your own with aircraft way ahead, sure ask for a speed if it will help you, but please don't ask for an extra 9 knots if the one ahead is 5 to 10 miles ahead of you. It increases my workload watching you so you don't get too close, as your speeds aren't matched, and will end up causing the vertical + horizonatal seps we were on about earlier.
Cheers
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5 miles and a 1000 feet being used for seperation is one of my major niggles, I hate to see it and something I never teach and try to discourage. I also hate to see the 5 mile "ring" around aircraft applied. When 1 has passed another and there is no danger of collision, then as in the "real ATC world" 1 aircraft climbs the other descends, easy really!!!
Of course, here in the Middle East the GCAA seem to want to re-invent the wheel and constantly introducing new procedures to over complicate things, the new instruction about the ILS being constantly protected to CAT II criteria is a cracker. Tell me you pilots, when you say to ATC you are doing a Auto-land and we say" ILS is not protected" what does that mean to you?
Good thread this, the major theme seems to be that let the controllers control and the pilots fly, we are always trying to give you the best service, so if there is a chance of high speed, early descent, opposite direction approach etc, you will get it. Believe it or not we at Dubai and the guys at the Centre know what we are doing, not too sure about RAK though!!!!!
Of course, here in the Middle East the GCAA seem to want to re-invent the wheel and constantly introducing new procedures to over complicate things, the new instruction about the ILS being constantly protected to CAT II criteria is a cracker. Tell me you pilots, when you say to ATC you are doing a Auto-land and we say" ILS is not protected" what does that mean to you?
Good thread this, the major theme seems to be that let the controllers control and the pilots fly, we are always trying to give you the best service, so if there is a chance of high speed, early descent, opposite direction approach etc, you will get it. Believe it or not we at Dubai and the guys at the Centre know what we are doing, not too sure about RAK though!!!!!
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Hello cat man
I think you were refering to the inbound spacing the UAE ACC has to provide us, while I was talking about the new instruction for spacing on final!
For our flying friends who are not aware of this.....
If 12L is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 20nm for traffic inbound from Desdi and 15nm for traffic from Bubin
If 30R is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 15nm for traffic inbound from Bubin and 10nm for traffic inbound from Desdi
I think you were refering to the inbound spacing the UAE ACC has to provide us, while I was talking about the new instruction for spacing on final!
For our flying friends who are not aware of this.....
If 12L is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 20nm for traffic inbound from Desdi and 15nm for traffic from Bubin
If 30R is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 15nm for traffic inbound from Bubin and 10nm for traffic inbound from Desdi
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Here is a suggestion to clear up the frequency. Why do we need to metion what type of aircraft we are in on intial contact? If the controller really wants or needs to know what A/C we are in he/she can look at the strip.
All that is needed as has been discussed in this post is flight #, alt passing and cleared to, and ATIS letter. That can be accomplished in about 4-5 seconds. No need for the STAR or anything else and no need for the controller to read back the altimeter setting or runway in use. We know all of that because WE HAVE THE ATIS INFORMATION.
Also is you have a flight numer that is easier said as a whole number, say it. It saves time. An example would be Emirates #500. Just say "five hundred" instead of "Emirates Five, Zero, Zero. That would save about 2-3 seconds per transmission.
As everyone who has been to the states knows first hand, less is more. That is the less transmissions the better for everybody. After all we are all professionals and know what is going on in the terminal environment.
All that is needed as has been discussed in this post is flight #, alt passing and cleared to, and ATIS letter. That can be accomplished in about 4-5 seconds. No need for the STAR or anything else and no need for the controller to read back the altimeter setting or runway in use. We know all of that because WE HAVE THE ATIS INFORMATION.
Also is you have a flight numer that is easier said as a whole number, say it. It saves time. An example would be Emirates #500. Just say "five hundred" instead of "Emirates Five, Zero, Zero. That would save about 2-3 seconds per transmission.
As everyone who has been to the states knows first hand, less is more. That is the less transmissions the better for everybody. After all we are all professionals and know what is going on in the terminal environment.
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Nimmer I can understand why 5nm and vert is a bit of a niggle but as stated I can understand why people use both.
With the frequency(I see it at leatst 10 times a shift) of pilots doing their own thing regarding tracking/vectors, either through mistakes or bloodyheadedness, teaching guys how to control defensively is a good thing IMHO. Once they are comfortable then they will revert to useing one or the other until they get stung. As I said I tend to use one or the other but teach my guys defense first. Then at the end of the training or when I think they have the ability to understand when a sit may go bad we move onto just one std with a backup plan.
With the frequency(I see it at leatst 10 times a shift) of pilots doing their own thing regarding tracking/vectors, either through mistakes or bloodyheadedness, teaching guys how to control defensively is a good thing IMHO. Once they are comfortable then they will revert to useing one or the other until they get stung. As I said I tend to use one or the other but teach my guys defense first. Then at the end of the training or when I think they have the ability to understand when a sit may go bad we move onto just one std with a backup plan.
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Great thread, inevitably we will always suffer from differences in perspective.
There is no doubt, from our perspective one of the biggest improvements would be to cut down the level of verbosity (from both sides of the mike). I listen to some pilots making a mini-series out of a simple request and indeed some of the more inexperienced ATCO's can be a bit flowery in their communication style. With all the human & cultural variability we have in our environment these are not easy problems to fix.
However, it would be worth lobbying-educating the regulator to not insist on a controller stating things like the ATIS code and QNH, when a pilot has just stated them. Controllers should be able to use their judgement as to content of RT instructions, not to have them regulated into becoming unwieldy & verbose.
There is no doubt, from our perspective one of the biggest improvements would be to cut down the level of verbosity (from both sides of the mike). I listen to some pilots making a mini-series out of a simple request and indeed some of the more inexperienced ATCO's can be a bit flowery in their communication style. With all the human & cultural variability we have in our environment these are not easy problems to fix.
However, it would be worth lobbying-educating the regulator to not insist on a controller stating things like the ATIS code and QNH, when a pilot has just stated them. Controllers should be able to use their judgement as to content of RT instructions, not to have them regulated into becoming unwieldy & verbose.
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And Desert Rose, their is a certain old man crew in Dubai App, who find 20 NM intrail spacing isn't enough, and also ask us to have everyone back to 250 KTs at Bubin/Desdi. Then invariably after vectoring everyone all over the sky ,gives everyone direct to final approach fix and high speed on first contact. That must be very confusing to the pilots, and makes us all look pretty silly. Anyway don't want to hijack a good thread with my complaints.
Gl69, having spoken to many yank pilots here, I can honestly say that by trying to abbreviate the calls, for the most part it increases the R/T in the long run. The problem being they leave out what we need, ie. level passing and cleared level, or on being given an instruction they don't read it back and don't use a callsign, and just say roger. Now maybe that has been deemed to be ok in the states but I am not going to risk the wrong Emirates aircraft descending in respnse to someone elses instruction, so I will chase a readback, and so I will clog up the radio even longer. Everything runs smoother if everyone just says what they are supposed to say, quickly and concisely and correctly.
I say again, say level passing and level cleared to on first contact!!!!!!! (we should print that up as a bumper sticker and have it stuck to the inside of the windscreen of every aircraft that flies in and out of the UAE!!!!)
Gl69, having spoken to many yank pilots here, I can honestly say that by trying to abbreviate the calls, for the most part it increases the R/T in the long run. The problem being they leave out what we need, ie. level passing and cleared level, or on being given an instruction they don't read it back and don't use a callsign, and just say roger. Now maybe that has been deemed to be ok in the states but I am not going to risk the wrong Emirates aircraft descending in respnse to someone elses instruction, so I will chase a readback, and so I will clog up the radio even longer. Everything runs smoother if everyone just says what they are supposed to say, quickly and concisely and correctly.
I say again, say level passing and level cleared to on first contact!!!!!!! (we should print that up as a bumper sticker and have it stuck to the inside of the windscreen of every aircraft that flies in and out of the UAE!!!!)
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Air No you agreed with some of my points but accused me of others I did not mean or even say. I said that only the basic required items need to be metioned AND NOTHING ELSE. That includes the repeated altimeter setting and runway assigned. We already know that why are you telling me that again?
Having been in Australlia and the US I can say without question that the US does it better. There is no way Chicago approach could get in half the amount of airplanes it they did the R/T the way you advocate. I know different strokes for different folks but why say more than you have to? I realize the Australlians have their way of doing things and they can do that with the amount of traffic they have. But the basic question I go back to is less more? Why say something if you don't have to?
Replying "Roger" is not acceptable to an order. Not repeating runway crossing is not acceptable. This does not apply to DXB but a pilot can say cleared to land runway "9" instead of zero, nine. Again it saves time and that what this thread is all about.
Having been in Australlia and the US I can say without question that the US does it better. There is no way Chicago approach could get in half the amount of airplanes it they did the R/T the way you advocate. I know different strokes for different folks but why say more than you have to? I realize the Australlians have their way of doing things and they can do that with the amount of traffic they have. But the basic question I go back to is less more? Why say something if you don't have to?
Replying "Roger" is not acceptable to an order. Not repeating runway crossing is not acceptable. This does not apply to DXB but a pilot can say cleared to land runway "9" instead of zero, nine. Again it saves time and that what this thread is all about.
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ANA, oooh that's so bitchy, show some respect for any senior citizens lurking in Dubai 
OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
I say again, say level passing and level cleared to on first contact!!!!!!!
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
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Some humour
Good info interesting reading
Slightly Off Topic however the word U.S was mentioned .....have a look at the following link for some humour on Mr Bush..will take some time to load even with a ADSL connection but worth the wait
http://www.jibjab.com/swf/JibJab_205YearEnd.swf
Slightly Off Topic however the word U.S was mentioned .....have a look at the following link for some humour on Mr Bush..will take some time to load even with a ADSL connection but worth the wait
http://www.jibjab.com/swf/JibJab_205YearEnd.swf
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Originally Posted by ruserious
ANA, oooh that's so bitchy, show some respect for any senior citizens lurking in Dubai
OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
you have to remember where you are and the culture that purveys, we aren't even allowed to use/pass gate times at desdi or bubin to stop everybody turning up at once for the desdi/bubin airshow...apparently pilots can't tell the time (despite their enormous watches!)
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Originally Posted by ruserious
OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.
) 'cause controller needs to check Mode C read-out within 300ft. Otherwise he's not allowed to use. So it is bad airmanship if you don't quote as the controller has to ask back and YOU clogg up the freq.
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Well there you go, never read ICAO Doc 4444 so I stand corrected. I presume it being an ICAO doc it is a SARP (Standard and/or Recommended Procedure). This does not mean that all regulators require or indeed request it, as ICAO is not a regulator in its own right.
I have to say tho the mode C check is not done very often in civilisation, either that or I am not paying attention (can I use fatigue as an excuse).
I have to say tho the mode C check is not done very often in civilisation, either that or I am not paying attention (can I use fatigue as an excuse).
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Regarding level passing. We need it to be within 200ft of the one you give us to verify it in DB. The mode C is supposed to be done everywhere. You may notice it here more, because ourselves and UAE run different radar systems and therefor it needs to be reverified on handover. Most other places I know, you usually pass it in the cruise on first contact out of habit and when you are airborne.
ANSA, carefull now regarding the old chaps. You may wake them. Noticed you have one down your way too.
Cheers
ANSA, carefull now regarding the old chaps. You may wake them. Noticed you have one down your way too.
Cheers
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As 03L/30R said we need to verify mode C within 200ft here. 
Believe me, they (bosses) can get anal about it. If say for instance an aircraft has a level bust (which has nothing to do with the controller) and the regulators take a look at the radar tape and they observe that the mode C is not verified within 200ft you've verified it, then you as controller will be in deep
, even though the mode C verification had nothing to do with the level bust.
So....that is why we as controllers keep on asking level passing until the pilot gives the exact level passing.
Believe me, they (bosses) can get anal about it. If say for instance an aircraft has a level bust (which has nothing to do with the controller) and the regulators take a look at the radar tape and they observe that the mode C is not verified within 200ft you've verified it, then you as controller will be in deep
, even though the mode C verification had nothing to do with the level bust.So....that is why we as controllers keep on asking level passing until the pilot gives the exact level passing.
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Believe me I don't enjoy having to keep on asking and asking and asking....
A lot of times the pilots think they are being pro-active by rounding off the altitude passing. Here is the frustrating part.
Aircraft call inbound reports passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12700ft)
So ATC asks to report altitude passing (pilot thinks "is this guy an idiot? I just gave it to him")
Pilot responds with: passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12600ft) Again ATC asks altitude passing
Pilot very irritaded says: PASSING ALTITUDE 12000ft!!!!
(radar indicates 12500ft)
ATC then asks the pilot to kindly report the exact/actual altitude passing for verification of mode C
Pilot then reports passing altitude 12400ft! (YIPEEEEE he got it right
)
How many extra transmissions were that????
Meantime poor old ruserious is flashing through the localiser because of all the extra transmissions
A lot of times the pilots think they are being pro-active by rounding off the altitude passing. Here is the frustrating part.
Aircraft call inbound reports passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12700ft)
So ATC asks to report altitude passing (pilot thinks "is this guy an idiot? I just gave it to him")
Pilot responds with: passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12600ft) Again ATC asks altitude passing
Pilot very irritaded says: PASSING ALTITUDE 12000ft!!!!
(radar indicates 12500ft)ATC then asks the pilot to kindly report the exact/actual altitude passing for verification of mode C
Pilot then reports passing altitude 12400ft! (YIPEEEEE he got it right
)How many extra transmissions were that????
Meantime poor old ruserious is flashing through the localiser because of all the extra transmissions