EK pay Q
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EK pay Q
Was just reading on EKs web site and found this about pay...
"Starting Salary is Dhs 18,370 and is reviewed annually. (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirhams). The salary is tax free."
So....Is that it?? No flight pay...? No night stop pay/allowance...?? Nothing...??
As far as I understand it the company pay for accommodation, correct?? But I have read on several places here on pprune that the money is not enough...correct?? So then that needs to come out of your 18,370..?
Any info to shed some light would be appreciated!
//CP
"Starting Salary is Dhs 18,370 and is reviewed annually. (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirhams). The salary is tax free."
So....Is that it?? No flight pay...? No night stop pay/allowance...?? Nothing...??
As far as I understand it the company pay for accommodation, correct?? But I have read on several places here on pprune that the money is not enough...correct?? So then that needs to come out of your 18,370..?
Any info to shed some light would be appreciated!
//CP
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Layover allowance is paid in local currency at the hotel which [I]barely[I] covers food and drink for the time you're there.
No flight pay unless its overtime (ie you do over 76 hours in a 30 day month) at which point as an F/O you get dhs270 per hour of overtime (most guys are doing between 5-15 hours overtime a month).
Company provides accomodation and pays for all bills ie. water, gas (even gas for the BBQ), elec etc but not phone calls (albeit local calls are free in the UAE anyway)... Or you can take the allowance which is about dhs9000/month and find your own accom and pay your own bills.
So basically if you don't take any loans, and you don't have kids in school (you pay 10% of the school fees the company pays the rest), and you don't have any other personal outgoings you should have about $5000 to blow each month on booze and curry......... although it never seems to work out that way for some reason.
Now you will hear from about eleventy ten people telling you how 'kin expensive Dubai is blah blah blah etc etc
Those are the facts.
No flight pay unless its overtime (ie you do over 76 hours in a 30 day month) at which point as an F/O you get dhs270 per hour of overtime (most guys are doing between 5-15 hours overtime a month).
Company provides accomodation and pays for all bills ie. water, gas (even gas for the BBQ), elec etc but not phone calls (albeit local calls are free in the UAE anyway)... Or you can take the allowance which is about dhs9000/month and find your own accom and pay your own bills.
So basically if you don't take any loans, and you don't have kids in school (you pay 10% of the school fees the company pays the rest), and you don't have any other personal outgoings you should have about $5000 to blow each month on booze and curry......... although it never seems to work out that way for some reason.
Now you will hear from about eleventy ten people telling you how 'kin expensive Dubai is blah blah blah etc etc
Those are the facts.
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That's right CP no flight duty pay and your night stop allowance is based on the room service menu, if the discount is 30% offered by the hotel emirates then take 30% off the cost of the meal and that is what you get, it's cock all.
You will end up coming home out of pocket, all because emirates expects you to eat in your hotel room and not in a half desent restaurant like most of us do.
"Keep discovering"
You will end up coming home out of pocket, all because emirates expects you to eat in your hotel room and not in a half desent restaurant like most of us do.
"Keep discovering"
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No there are no other extras, and don't forget there will be deductions from that 18000 for medical, provident fund, telephone, tickets, and so on. A bonus of 3-6 weeks has been payed most years and comes in handy to pay credit card bills.
Re puff m'calls post, allowances are not based on room service menus, and rarely will the allowance cover room service. The allowances are based on the cheapest outlet in the hotel, which is usually the buffet at the coffee shop, or similar outlet, and yes as he said EK then help themseves to our discount, and base the allowance on that discouted cost.
Least thats the theory, in practice it often won't even cover that. Try 5 pounds for breakfast at LHR, 7 at LGW. How about 77SGD for 24 hours in SIN, or 43AUD for 18 hours in MEL. Enough said I think you get the picture.
Re oblaaspop post, In my experience FOs rarely make overtime, and even if you do at 270dhs/hr its not worth it. If the 9000 dhs a month accommodation allowance looks like an opportunity to pocket some money, again forget it unless your prepared to live in a one bedroom bedsit, in an undesirable part of town. A villa will set you back 12000 a month plus another 1500-2000 for utilities.
Looking at the wage compared to home is of no relevance since you have to live in Dubai. As meantioned in shakealeg in the post 'unofficial EK poll', our own SVP HP (Pay and allowances) rates a Captains worth to that of a shop manager, and an FOs to that of a secretary/PA, which gives you an indication of how clueless they are with regards to Pay and allowances. I can assure you that the rates shown for the various other occupations are accurate, and even as a Captain you will be the poor cousin when compared to other professional expats working in Dubai. As an FO you will be hovering around the poverty line, in expat terms, earning something similar to what a senior purser gets paid.
This absurd situation has been allowed to develop, not due to clever management as the managers would have themselves believe, but rather the unusually prolonged slump in the industry over recent years. Except for the very early days of EK, this has been the situation, and EK managers have conditioned themselves to believe that they can pay peanuts, and push our professional status lower than just about every other department, and individual in the company. EK have allowed pay and conditions to erode to such a state that they are probably unable to restore them to realistic levels any time soon.
Unless you are single, if you come here as af FO you will not save a penny. Also be aware that there are other serious issues regarding non sustainable, and unrealistic crewing levels, crew rest facilities, rostering, and flight time limitaions.
If your looking to come here as a DEC, consider the following.
If your a retiree coming from a real airline expecting some time in the sun to top up your pension, is it really worth knocking 5 years off your life flying max hours, with minium rest, crappy hotels, crappy allowances, on 11 hour, multiple sectors in the middle of the night with two crew.
If your a narrow body captain looking for an opportunity, unless you have a lot of prior wide body, long haul international time time under your belt you'll find it tough. Just ask the numerous prospective DECs who failed to meet the standard and were sent packing.
Re puff m'calls post, allowances are not based on room service menus, and rarely will the allowance cover room service. The allowances are based on the cheapest outlet in the hotel, which is usually the buffet at the coffee shop, or similar outlet, and yes as he said EK then help themseves to our discount, and base the allowance on that discouted cost.
Least thats the theory, in practice it often won't even cover that. Try 5 pounds for breakfast at LHR, 7 at LGW. How about 77SGD for 24 hours in SIN, or 43AUD for 18 hours in MEL. Enough said I think you get the picture.
Re oblaaspop post, In my experience FOs rarely make overtime, and even if you do at 270dhs/hr its not worth it. If the 9000 dhs a month accommodation allowance looks like an opportunity to pocket some money, again forget it unless your prepared to live in a one bedroom bedsit, in an undesirable part of town. A villa will set you back 12000 a month plus another 1500-2000 for utilities.
Looking at the wage compared to home is of no relevance since you have to live in Dubai. As meantioned in shakealeg in the post 'unofficial EK poll', our own SVP HP (Pay and allowances) rates a Captains worth to that of a shop manager, and an FOs to that of a secretary/PA, which gives you an indication of how clueless they are with regards to Pay and allowances. I can assure you that the rates shown for the various other occupations are accurate, and even as a Captain you will be the poor cousin when compared to other professional expats working in Dubai. As an FO you will be hovering around the poverty line, in expat terms, earning something similar to what a senior purser gets paid.
This absurd situation has been allowed to develop, not due to clever management as the managers would have themselves believe, but rather the unusually prolonged slump in the industry over recent years. Except for the very early days of EK, this has been the situation, and EK managers have conditioned themselves to believe that they can pay peanuts, and push our professional status lower than just about every other department, and individual in the company. EK have allowed pay and conditions to erode to such a state that they are probably unable to restore them to realistic levels any time soon.
Unless you are single, if you come here as af FO you will not save a penny. Also be aware that there are other serious issues regarding non sustainable, and unrealistic crewing levels, crew rest facilities, rostering, and flight time limitaions.
If your looking to come here as a DEC, consider the following.
If your a retiree coming from a real airline expecting some time in the sun to top up your pension, is it really worth knocking 5 years off your life flying max hours, with minium rest, crappy hotels, crappy allowances, on 11 hour, multiple sectors in the middle of the night with two crew.
If your a narrow body captain looking for an opportunity, unless you have a lot of prior wide body, long haul international time time under your belt you'll find it tough. Just ask the numerous prospective DECs who failed to meet the standard and were sent packing.
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Thanks guys for the info...as expected when reading the threads here on pprune...
Not really concidering anything at all....just looking around at what is on offer out there in case the Big Orange machine gets it´s way and we all have to abandon ship....
// CP
"Lower and faster"
Not really concidering anything at all....just looking around at what is on offer out there in case the Big Orange machine gets it´s way and we all have to abandon ship....
// CP
"Lower and faster"
A hard one to answer Altack. There are 650ish FOs already in the company, and they are trying for between 90 and 131 DECs this year alone (numbers differ from whom you speak to). We have a little over 80 airplanes now, and I think they are trying for 160ish by 2012.
Average age of the EK driver is quite young so retirements don't happen too often.
So the days of the quick seat change may be over. But you nver know.
Don
Average age of the EK driver is quite young so retirements don't happen too often.
So the days of the quick seat change may be over. But you nver know.
Don
Accellerated is only used when there is no FO in the upgrade bracket. Now this might happen this year on the B777 (I do not know), however, as I mentioned there are 650 FOs in the company now, so the gaps that are happening on the 777 now will probably not happen again. So if you are joining now and counting on getting a accellerated command, I think you may be disapointed. If you have the hours for an accellerated command, I think you would be better off waiting the extra 6months and joining as a DEC on the greater salary than a FO to Capt at EK will get.
Don
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dont forget the guys with around 2 years or more experience with the DEC/Accelerated hours and now have to do a 12 month course for 777 which doesnt start till late 2006 thats nearly 4 years to command and these guys are already here.
There is F/os with around 6 thousand command been denied upgrades while lower houred pilots come off the street .
I left because of this and i still cant believe the way they still treat there F/Os its incredibly sad.
If you have a lot of experience and come as an F/O you may be very dissappointed............
There is F/os with around 6 thousand command been denied upgrades while lower houred pilots come off the street .
I left because of this and i still cant believe the way they still treat there F/Os its incredibly sad.
If you have a lot of experience and come as an F/O you may be very dissappointed............
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Yes there is Guys on the Airbus with the DEC hours who cannot get an upgrade (due to loads of 3 year F/os ).
It seems the 777 transition will cost another 18 months (courses not starting till late this year.) due to 6 months in the right seat required.
It seems the 777 transition will cost another 18 months (courses not starting till late this year.) due to 6 months in the right seat required.
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The transition upgrade is just a sham it was brought out the day before the advert in flight for DEC's in the hope of calming the outcry from the f/o's however i think most realise that this is another dirty trick by EK and a huge number of great guys will leave as a result.
It was another screw upby AAR. TCAS wanted a proper Transition policy, but AAR was determined to fiddle with the policy. Allegedly TCAS was furious when the FCI came back after "approval". This policy will undoubtedly see many experienced F/O's on the Bus leave. Just at the time when EK needs to retain every pilot it has. 
EGGW
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EGGW i am sure that is correct however how thick do they think we all are not realising that to "transition upgrade" could be as long as it is to stay on the bus. It gets even worse when you you have friends with 737 time phoning you up to ask questions about the DEC interview!!
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Having seen the official letter you all got regarding DEC's, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that ALL upgrades on 777, will be in-house, provided the requirements are met. Again ALL accelerated commands, will be subject to the requirements. From what I understand, with the many aircraft joining the fleet in the next few years, there is no way, currently anyway, that there will be enough suitable Capts, or F/O's, suitable. Hence the DEC thing. Mind you, the requirements are there in your manual, I've seen it,(10000 hrs etc), for a DEC. Bottom line, you will not have enough Capt's to crew the aircraft, in the near future. If suppose, I joined as a DEC tomorrow, according, to the letter, from your Management, I would NOT, be depriving any F/O, of his deserved up-grade. That's the way I see it. Has any F/O, been told categorically, that his up-grade to command, will be later than it should be, because of DEC's joining? Seems to me, that your Management is being above-board on this. So what's the complaining about?
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Tic,
Yep, I got delayed by 5 months. When it I reached the requirements there was no training time available because it was all filled by DECs. That was after it had already been delayed by a moving in the goal posts caused by the Gulf Air debacle.
Yep, I got delayed by 5 months. When it I reached the requirements there was no training time available because it was all filled by DECs. That was after it had already been delayed by a moving in the goal posts caused by the Gulf Air debacle.
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ALL upgrades on the Airbus are being delayed. This is due to the fact that there are not enough F/O's in the system so upgrades are being delayed. The reason there are not enough F/O's presently on the airbus and in the foreseeable future is due to the DEC policy. Presently F/O's are slowly being offered upgrades, course dates starting at 3 years and 5 months roughly. There is a shortage of captains on the bus, requiring upgrades, but the upgrades cannot be offered on time simply because that would worsen the shortage of F/O's already being experienced on the bus.
Its an ugly catch 22 situation that is completely due to the DEC policy.
Hiring more DEC's means further delaying F/O upgrades. Not hiring more DECs and consequently upgrading F/O's on time, means further shortages of F/O's. There aren't enough F/O's because of resignations, and no shows which is a direct result of the DEC policy.
I just flew with a fellow who was in my opinion extremely competent and definitely worthy and capable of upgrading, yet his tentative ground school course date is at 3 years and 5 months.
The Russians and south americans are finding new interest in their applications to EK. No offence intended but since the Malaysians have now decided that EK isn't their cup of tea, EK has now moved on to other groups of prospective F/O's.
To suggest that the DEC policy has been anything other than a complete disaster is not accurate. As well, to suggest that TCAS was in the least upset by anything that further degrades the careers of those at EK, is one of the funniest things i've ever read. I knew from day 1 that the last memo regarding transition upgrades etc, was a smoke screen to say the least. Mark my words, there will be a very small number of transition upgrades if any at all. It would only exacerbate the problem of insufficient numbers of F/O's on the airbus.
Its an ugly catch 22 situation that is completely due to the DEC policy.
Hiring more DEC's means further delaying F/O upgrades. Not hiring more DECs and consequently upgrading F/O's on time, means further shortages of F/O's. There aren't enough F/O's because of resignations, and no shows which is a direct result of the DEC policy.
I just flew with a fellow who was in my opinion extremely competent and definitely worthy and capable of upgrading, yet his tentative ground school course date is at 3 years and 5 months.
The Russians and south americans are finding new interest in their applications to EK. No offence intended but since the Malaysians have now decided that EK isn't their cup of tea, EK has now moved on to other groups of prospective F/O's.
To suggest that the DEC policy has been anything other than a complete disaster is not accurate. As well, to suggest that TCAS was in the least upset by anything that further degrades the careers of those at EK, is one of the funniest things i've ever read. I knew from day 1 that the last memo regarding transition upgrades etc, was a smoke screen to say the least. Mark my words, there will be a very small number of transition upgrades if any at all. It would only exacerbate the problem of insufficient numbers of F/O's on the airbus.
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I hear what you saying. F/O's especially must be very worried, despite what the letter says. As a Capt myself, and obviously being an F/O once, I can see the points issued. It happened to me too. Unfortunately, according to the letter you all got, it is happenning, or going to happen. As I see it, you don't have enough suitable F/O's, even if they joined last week, therefore, you don't have enough Capt's. Your manual restricts any up-grade for 3 yrs, and even accelerated to 18 months. It's definately not fair, IF you do get superceded by a DEC.
