Islamist Web Site Warns U.A.E. to Expel Non-Muslims
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Go to the second sand dune, then turn right.
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha ha . . . . 
Your location "Somewhere in the USA . . . varies almost daily" is almost ironic SASless when it comes to this topic. What ther heck am I talking about? A picture's worth a thousand words!!!
Your location "Somewhere in the USA . . . varies almost daily" is almost ironic SASless when it comes to this topic. What ther heck am I talking about? A picture's worth a thousand words!!!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Toxic
Wastafarian;
Your input is far too logical for any of the participants in this forum and is only a pre-amble to events taking place today, but reflects the same state of mind.
LAPD went to every extent to justify their actions in the King case.
What we must remember now is that all Arabs and muslims are terrorists, whether we like it or not and Arab streets are not safe for anyone.
Or so they say.
Locals with their influence have not made a better impression either when given a chance, nor have other Arab governments.
Today they hide in negation and assume publicly that this is the result not of their imposition of Islam on the other residents, but on those who have no authority to live out of their grip.
Westerners live a life of their own and they at least have more liberties... The booze license being a perfect example of unspoken segregation.
At the end of the day and like it has been said by somone else earlier on this forum, those at who the finger points, are the cause of this worlds pain and suffering. It is not the interest of the multi national conglomerates or the willful act or unwilling governments that support them.
And ignorance of westerners or their lack of desire to know more about Arabs and muslims does not help. How many times, does one hear comments in this country that would otherwise be deemed politically incorrect had we been in a western country. Yet socially they are not only acceptable but a savoury piece of conversation.
Now find me a westerner who understands these facts, beyond feeling comfortable behind the bigotted spinning exercised by the media to make them feel good about the colour of their skin, their creed or religion.
The worst is that the west in its position as the "developped world" is speaking like Gaddafi's government 20 years ago, with bigotry as the plane of the subject at hand.
Bush, Blair, thank you!
And these are pilots who have travelled, what about those who haven't.
Your input is far too logical for any of the participants in this forum and is only a pre-amble to events taking place today, but reflects the same state of mind.
LAPD went to every extent to justify their actions in the King case.
What we must remember now is that all Arabs and muslims are terrorists, whether we like it or not and Arab streets are not safe for anyone.
Or so they say.
Locals with their influence have not made a better impression either when given a chance, nor have other Arab governments.
Today they hide in negation and assume publicly that this is the result not of their imposition of Islam on the other residents, but on those who have no authority to live out of their grip.
Westerners live a life of their own and they at least have more liberties... The booze license being a perfect example of unspoken segregation.
At the end of the day and like it has been said by somone else earlier on this forum, those at who the finger points, are the cause of this worlds pain and suffering. It is not the interest of the multi national conglomerates or the willful act or unwilling governments that support them.
And ignorance of westerners or their lack of desire to know more about Arabs and muslims does not help. How many times, does one hear comments in this country that would otherwise be deemed politically incorrect had we been in a western country. Yet socially they are not only acceptable but a savoury piece of conversation.
Now find me a westerner who understands these facts, beyond feeling comfortable behind the bigotted spinning exercised by the media to make them feel good about the colour of their skin, their creed or religion.
The worst is that the west in its position as the "developped world" is speaking like Gaddafi's government 20 years ago, with bigotry as the plane of the subject at hand.
Bush, Blair, thank you!
And these are pilots who have travelled, what about those who haven't.
Last edited by AMX10; 26th Jul 2005 at 22:19.
Well boys your usual anti-American prejudice shows itself in spades here.....contrary to what you think I have been to a few places about the world....and lived there at length....and not by benefit of the US Government.
I have been in the close company of King Hussein the father of the current King....taught Iraqi pilots from their VIP flight in days gone by....done the Pakistan,Jordan,Saudi, Bahrain, Somalia and Iran gigs as well.
If you think for a moment that Al Qaeda, or whatever you wish to call the current crop of Islamic terrorists, do not consider you a target.....your commonsense is lacking.
Whether you wish to admit or not....when it becomes the right thing to do....terrror attacks will happen in the places you live. You may be the best of friends with many fine people of the Islamic faith but when the terrorists select you...or your favorite restaurant for an attack....all that will mean nothing. If your friends are sitting there with you ...they join you as a target too.
I would imagine it will come as a surprise to you when it happens....if it happens...but no place is immune from this violence...not even he holy cities in Saudi (if you read the papers).
Sneer all you wish and put up your cutesy photos but while you do....jump over to the beheading videos....and consider those as well....that was not LA...and it was not Americans doing it. The victims were not just Americans either.
Its your head....bury it in the sand.
Me....I would consider developing a keen situational awareness of what is going on around me and consider what I am doing that might make me more vulnerable....and do something else that puts room between me and the potential targets.
That was my only point ....that a bit of awareness does not hurt.
If I shook up your comfy bit of life by suggesting some ugly truth....please do accept my apologies.
I have been in the close company of King Hussein the father of the current King....taught Iraqi pilots from their VIP flight in days gone by....done the Pakistan,Jordan,Saudi, Bahrain, Somalia and Iran gigs as well.
If you think for a moment that Al Qaeda, or whatever you wish to call the current crop of Islamic terrorists, do not consider you a target.....your commonsense is lacking.
Whether you wish to admit or not....when it becomes the right thing to do....terrror attacks will happen in the places you live. You may be the best of friends with many fine people of the Islamic faith but when the terrorists select you...or your favorite restaurant for an attack....all that will mean nothing. If your friends are sitting there with you ...they join you as a target too.
I would imagine it will come as a surprise to you when it happens....if it happens...but no place is immune from this violence...not even he holy cities in Saudi (if you read the papers).
Sneer all you wish and put up your cutesy photos but while you do....jump over to the beheading videos....and consider those as well....that was not LA...and it was not Americans doing it. The victims were not just Americans either.
Its your head....bury it in the sand.
Me....I would consider developing a keen situational awareness of what is going on around me and consider what I am doing that might make me more vulnerable....and do something else that puts room between me and the potential targets.
That was my only point ....that a bit of awareness does not hurt.
If I shook up your comfy bit of life by suggesting some ugly truth....please do accept my apologies.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: TRY TO FIND THE BEST PLACE
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wastemytime farian, do me a favour, go on google engine search and tape ' pictures of hostage'.
I have too much respect to print any picture here, but you have to go see for yourself....a lots of brave guys with mask, big knives and lots of blood, chanting Allah blah blah! you know the rethoric!
I have too much respect to print any picture here, but you have to go see for yourself....a lots of brave guys with mask, big knives and lots of blood, chanting Allah blah blah! you know the rethoric!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SASless;
We should give you a distinction for your round of duties, but obviously even after so much exposure your attitude is one of disregard and petty consideration.
The King of Jordan is no representation of the Arab man in he street with a PHD in his pocket and no job to feed his family, at the behest of governments that import foreign labour like you to take his posting.
Please spare us the rethoric of Colonial two step sorry dance, the timing is wrong and is only a reminder of the same philosophy that is the reason of today's problems.
Can you define Islamic?
Glorified donkey
Locals today will do anything to maintain the peace, even if they have to feed a neighboor who is foreign to show how hospitable they are. A really big step considering they were never friendly before.
We should give you a distinction for your round of duties, but obviously even after so much exposure your attitude is one of disregard and petty consideration.
The King of Jordan is no representation of the Arab man in he street with a PHD in his pocket and no job to feed his family, at the behest of governments that import foreign labour like you to take his posting.
Please spare us the rethoric of Colonial two step sorry dance, the timing is wrong and is only a reminder of the same philosophy that is the reason of today's problems.
Can you define Islamic?
whatever you wish to call the current crop of Islamic terrorists
Locals today will do anything to maintain the peace, even if they have to feed a neighboor who is foreign to show how hospitable they are. A really big step considering they were never friendly before.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: TRY TO FIND THE BEST PLACE
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMX10...
Ready to do anything to preserve peace hum!....I guess you right in your statement....
there is from the press few months back
''THE government of Qatar is paying millions of pounds a year to Al-Qaeda in return for an undertaking to spare it from further terrorist attacks, official sources in the wealthy Gulf state claimed last week.
The money, paid to spiritual leaders sympathetic to Al-Qaeda, is believed to be helping to fund its activities in Iraq. In a recent message broadcast via the internet, Osama Bin Laden told followers that operations in Iraq were costing Al-Qaeda more than £500,000 a month.
The sources said a deal between Qatar and Al-Qaeda was first made before the 2003 invasion of Iraq amid fears that the oil state, a close ally of Washington, could become a terrorist target. The US Central Command for the invasion was based in Qatar.
A senior government source said that the agreement was renewed in March after an Egyptian suicide bomber — thought to be associated with Al-Qaeda — struck a theatre in Doha, Qatar’s capital, killing a British teacher during a performance of Twelfth Night.
“We’re not sure that the attack was carried out by Al-Qaeda, but we ratified our agreement just to be on the safe side,” said a Qatari official. “We are a soft target and prefer to pay to secure our national and economical interests. We are not the only ones doing so.
Enough said!!!
Ready to do anything to preserve peace hum!....I guess you right in your statement....
there is from the press few months back
''THE government of Qatar is paying millions of pounds a year to Al-Qaeda in return for an undertaking to spare it from further terrorist attacks, official sources in the wealthy Gulf state claimed last week.
The money, paid to spiritual leaders sympathetic to Al-Qaeda, is believed to be helping to fund its activities in Iraq. In a recent message broadcast via the internet, Osama Bin Laden told followers that operations in Iraq were costing Al-Qaeda more than £500,000 a month.
The sources said a deal between Qatar and Al-Qaeda was first made before the 2003 invasion of Iraq amid fears that the oil state, a close ally of Washington, could become a terrorist target. The US Central Command for the invasion was based in Qatar.
A senior government source said that the agreement was renewed in March after an Egyptian suicide bomber — thought to be associated with Al-Qaeda — struck a theatre in Doha, Qatar’s capital, killing a British teacher during a performance of Twelfth Night.
“We’re not sure that the attack was carried out by Al-Qaeda, but we ratified our agreement just to be on the safe side,” said a Qatari official. “We are a soft target and prefer to pay to secure our national and economical interests. We are not the only ones doing so.
Enough said!!!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ready to do anything to preserve peace hum!....I guess you right in your statement....
......Qatar is paying millions of pounds a year to Al-Qaeda in return for an undertaking to spare it from further terrorist attacks, official sources in the wealthy.....
For your information Qatar does not have an army and has hired the US to defend its borders.
....operations in Iraq were costing Al-Qaeda more than £500,000 a month....
....the agreement was renewed in March after an Egyptian suicide bomber — thought to be associated with Al-Qaeda — struck a......
We've been watching these intelligence agencies with all their technology that can monitor what you spend in a supermarket and what brand of condoms you use but no one can define Al qaeda or who belongs to it.
Yet anyone who challenges that is immediately made a target by the same agencies and branded Al qaeda, and accused of supporting terrorism;
I was under a clear impression and factual knowledge shows that Al qaeda like bin ladin were set up by the US to rid Afghanistan of Russians, can you deny this?
Yes enough said, live in your little mind that the big bad wolf is there to get you and its name is al qaeda, unbeknown to to you, perhaps you need not look any further than your home turf to realise that its none other than your own government creating a mirror for it's own needs to move forward in its agenda at any cost.
Considering little westerners know more about Arabs and Islam I am not surprised to read these statements one after the other, simply anchoring ignorance in a subject matter that is far subtler than your mind could ever fathom to grasp.
Yes Enough said! But perhaps the following article can enlighten your quest for truth and the similarity between events during WW2 and today's malgamation of religion and politics.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/23003.htm
Is this the next step in the fight against terror?
Or this of the occupied territories?
or does this remind you of recent events in Gauantanamo?
Make your mind up before raising the flag of of morality or rights none of your statements will stand in the face of history or fix todays problems!
Last edited by AMX10; 27th Jul 2005 at 10:08.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought it was pretty well accepted around the Gulf that the theatre bombing in Qatar occurred after the Qataris didn’t make their scheduled VERY LARGE payment to certain Islamic “charitable institutions”. I was told the payment was made forthwith immediately after the attack and - surprise, surprise - there have been no follow up attacks since then. And nor will there be, as long as the money keeps flowing in.
No one will admit to it officially, but again it’s pretty well accepted that Dubai makes similar large payments to the same “charitable institutions”. Dubai also has a very heavy CID presence virtually everywhere on the street / phone / fax and email, who keep a very close eye on anyone even likely to step out of line.
I’m sure they also keep a close eye on the (many?) main players said to reside in Dubai, but I don’t think they really have to, as the last thing those main players want it to stir up any problems for themselves in what amounts to a very comfortable main base, a no-questions-asked international banking centre and their major transport hub (or yes, no guesses about their airline of choice).
A standard joke around town for some time now is that OBL has been living in a penthouse in the Burj for quite some years now, and every time he needed to make a “from my cave” video, he’d just slip across to the fake rock grotto in the Jumeirah Beach Hotel basement with his camcorder. [Note to the CIA: it’s just a joke, guys!]
Could an attack occur in Dubai? Quite possibly, but for my money, if one does, it won’t be by one of the main player Islamic Terrorist organisations, not unless there’s some major change in the current status quo, for all the reasons I’ve quoted above.
For my money, if one does occur, it will be either by two or three young bloods who get all stirred up after watching too much Al Jazeria, or far more likely, we’ll see a repeat of what has already occurred some years ago. Some local will get riled up after some half-cut expat slapper knocks back his advances in a local night club. He’ll leave (or be thrown out of) the night club, go home, pick up his AK (or God knows what else) and return to the night club to settle things in the traditional way. The Western media are a bit thicker on the ground in Dubai these days than they were last time this happened, and they’ll turn what will quite likely have little or nothing to do with terrorism into a classic CNN-style feeding frenzy.
No one will admit to it officially, but again it’s pretty well accepted that Dubai makes similar large payments to the same “charitable institutions”. Dubai also has a very heavy CID presence virtually everywhere on the street / phone / fax and email, who keep a very close eye on anyone even likely to step out of line.
I’m sure they also keep a close eye on the (many?) main players said to reside in Dubai, but I don’t think they really have to, as the last thing those main players want it to stir up any problems for themselves in what amounts to a very comfortable main base, a no-questions-asked international banking centre and their major transport hub (or yes, no guesses about their airline of choice).
A standard joke around town for some time now is that OBL has been living in a penthouse in the Burj for quite some years now, and every time he needed to make a “from my cave” video, he’d just slip across to the fake rock grotto in the Jumeirah Beach Hotel basement with his camcorder. [Note to the CIA: it’s just a joke, guys!]
Could an attack occur in Dubai? Quite possibly, but for my money, if one does, it won’t be by one of the main player Islamic Terrorist organisations, not unless there’s some major change in the current status quo, for all the reasons I’ve quoted above.
For my money, if one does occur, it will be either by two or three young bloods who get all stirred up after watching too much Al Jazeria, or far more likely, we’ll see a repeat of what has already occurred some years ago. Some local will get riled up after some half-cut expat slapper knocks back his advances in a local night club. He’ll leave (or be thrown out of) the night club, go home, pick up his AK (or God knows what else) and return to the night club to settle things in the traditional way. The Western media are a bit thicker on the ground in Dubai these days than they were last time this happened, and they’ll turn what will quite likely have little or nothing to do with terrorism into a classic CNN-style feeding frenzy.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skinny dog You could not be closer to truth when you speak of the media presence and it's spinning impact on the most mundane of topics.
I will disagree though to say that it is not Al Jazeera that will stir the young man up but rather the ill reflected amalgamation of terms and creed exercised by western media that will do it; for these institutions are not any longer serving their charter as information sources but rather misleading and spun inofrmation sources.
Al Jazeera is only the balancing weight if anything of networks like FOX and Christian scientist networks and if you asked me I would tell you that it is also poor beyond the sensational in informing anyone on real facts so it is also failing miserably!
I will disagree though to say that it is not Al Jazeera that will stir the young man up but rather the ill reflected amalgamation of terms and creed exercised by western media that will do it; for these institutions are not any longer serving their charter as information sources but rather misleading and spun inofrmation sources.
Al Jazeera is only the balancing weight if anything of networks like FOX and Christian scientist networks and if you asked me I would tell you that it is also poor beyond the sensational in informing anyone on real facts so it is also failing miserably!
Who is the Fool? The Fool or the man arguing with the Fool?
There is such a thing as blind ignorance that is disguised by self deception.
There is one very lost soul amongst us...humour the guy Billy....you are not going to change his mind until he opens his eyes and heart. He hears but his own voice.
There is such a thing as blind ignorance that is disguised by self deception.
There is one very lost soul amongst us...humour the guy Billy....you are not going to change his mind until he opens his eyes and heart. He hears but his own voice.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, lets rally and show the imbecile......Typical answers coming from those who hold the universal truth........ These answers are no different ffrom the rethoric of terrorists, it is called the wooden tongue...toc.toc.toc.
SAS, knowing the king of Jordan does not make you more human than others, more learned than others, or entitle your views to go on unchecked.
After all you were just ahelicopter pilot for him, not his financial, political or well-being advisor. So stop ranting as if you were above the rest.
What surprises me is that neither you or billy are from this part of the world, yet you want to impose your view on others and are suprised why they do not prescribe to it. The only statements that seem to materialise from your mind, is how savage and cruel these muslims are...... I mean what a load of ........!
I wonder who has to open their heart, those who walk blind into a trove or those who are in a ditch see the light but can't get out.
We are all the same mate, all the same, you just want to be better and if you were, your language would not be one of disregard but of dialogue, and you cannot accept dialogue because you are prejudiced.
And I know your answer to come: Oh but look I come from the US where everyone is equal tatt radirara.......etc..... Which brings me to the point of what wastafarian was saying in his post, please stop criticising others when you cannot clean up in front of your own house.
Only kings seem to befit your mental realm, the people don't.
Hence spoke Zaratoustra......
You can live in your ignorance, but you can never see it, like others see you.
SAS, knowing the king of Jordan does not make you more human than others, more learned than others, or entitle your views to go on unchecked.
After all you were just ahelicopter pilot for him, not his financial, political or well-being advisor. So stop ranting as if you were above the rest.
What surprises me is that neither you or billy are from this part of the world, yet you want to impose your view on others and are suprised why they do not prescribe to it. The only statements that seem to materialise from your mind, is how savage and cruel these muslims are...... I mean what a load of ........!
I wonder who has to open their heart, those who walk blind into a trove or those who are in a ditch see the light but can't get out.
We are all the same mate, all the same, you just want to be better and if you were, your language would not be one of disregard but of dialogue, and you cannot accept dialogue because you are prejudiced.
And I know your answer to come: Oh but look I come from the US where everyone is equal tatt radirara.......etc..... Which brings me to the point of what wastafarian was saying in his post, please stop criticising others when you cannot clean up in front of your own house.
Only kings seem to befit your mental realm, the people don't.
Hence spoke Zaratoustra......
You can live in your ignorance, but you can never see it, like others see you.
Last edited by AMX10; 27th Jul 2005 at 11:39.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Landan!
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goebbels
Does anyone mention the christian and conservative organisations, asking to expell all muslims from the west? It happens daily
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2001/0904kelly.htm
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/12206162.htm
http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/07-2005/Article-20050725-4ea52e56-c0a8-10ed-00ed-f4c8529f51db/story.html
But it does not make the news like the heading of this topic.
I dont think anyone read the link of AMX 10s post earlier?
THE DISADVANTAGE OF COLLECTIVE IGNORANCE
Ariel A. Roth
Origins 23(1):3-5 (1996).
EDITORIAL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
World War II was a monstrous event. The most dominant figure was Adolf Hitler, who by persuasion and military power gained control of much of Western Europe. In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, .In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, Hitler had a powerful ally in his friend Dr. Joseph Goebbels, who became his Minister for Propaganda and Public Enlightenment.
Goebbels had a lavish lifestyle, including fancy homes which he could ill afford. However, one of his representatives explained to newsmen that the Minister was really an extremely modest man who put up with the inconveniences of such an opulent life because of the needs of his official position. Using his persuasive talents, Goebbels was effective in convincing France, England, and the United States that, regardless of appearances, Hitler's actual goal was to control Bolshevik expansion from the east. Goebbels' craftiness is reflected in one of his often-quoted statements: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter but with guns." His approach to conquering a country was to first establish a friendly neighborly relationship with the country. After this relationship was firmly established, a program of criticizing the policies and leaders of the country was begun. This was followed by threats of violence and of the need for the people to get rid of their leaders and to capitulate to his demands. The last stage was to allow deliberate confusion to grow, followed by invasion and taking control of the nation's radio stations.
Eventually, after many conquests, the tide of World War II started changing, and conditions went from bad to worse for Hitler. Many of his associates, perceiving unquestionable defeat, deserted him. Finally Hitler and his wife, whom he had just married the day before, along with Goebbels, his wife and their six children, all took their lives in an underground bunker in Berlin as the Russians were overtaking the city. Despite this tragic ending, the success of Hitler and Goebbels, which had lasted for a number of years, remains as one of the puzzling events of human history. How could the stratagems that led to plunder and mass murder be justified and engender the loyally that they did? A significant factor in that success was Goebbels' crafty promotional endeavors which took advantage of the pervasive ignorance of humanity.
On a less dramatic scale, but more insidious in its effects, a similar problem exists when experts on a given subject are instructing laypersons. Typical settings would be the public lecture hall, the classroom, the convention hall, or the church. There the lecturers or teachers are at an advantage over their audience, because they are much better prepared and know, or should know, much more than anyone else in the audience about the topic under discussion. Often the listeners have the same philosophical "flavor" as the speakers, because they have come to hear about a subject they are already interested in, or they want to have their worldview affirmed. In the classroom the instruction can reflect a particular political, nationalistic, or religious viewpoint. The type of books and journal articles emphasized can stimulate a particular bias that the innocent reader does not recognize. With the specialist-laymen arrangement, the eagerness of the laymen to learn and the enthusiasm of the specialist to promote a particular view can generate a not-so-healthy synergistic enthusiasm in which the expert takes advantage of the ignorance of the listener. In life we are too often at the mercy of the experts whose credentials may be impressive, but whose integrity, wisdom, and knowledge remain unevaluated by the listener.
Our worldview, or as some prefer to call it, our personal basic philosophy or religion, usually extends beyond simple facts as we address the more complex questions such as the meaning of existence and the ensuing implications about life beyond the grave. These deeper, complex and extremely important questions are easily influenced by the pronouncements of experts, and because of this they especially need to be sheltered from the pitfalls of collective ignorance. The fact that worldviews are complex and not as easily evaluated as simple facts makes them particularly susceptible to the innocence of collective ignorance. In this area we can easily be deceived.
It turns out that our collective ignorance has the collective disadvantage of mass delusion; whether it be the influence of Goebbels, the specialist of Madison Avenue, or a host of what we respectfully call experts. The solution is to be constantly on our guard lest advantage be taken of our ignorance, of which we all have an abundant supply.
Be independent
But this maybe above the scope of Billy and SAS
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2001/0904kelly.htm
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/12206162.htm
http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/07-2005/Article-20050725-4ea52e56-c0a8-10ed-00ed-f4c8529f51db/story.html
But it does not make the news like the heading of this topic.
I dont think anyone read the link of AMX 10s post earlier?
THE DISADVANTAGE OF COLLECTIVE IGNORANCE
Ariel A. Roth
Origins 23(1):3-5 (1996).
EDITORIAL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
World War II was a monstrous event. The most dominant figure was Adolf Hitler, who by persuasion and military power gained control of much of Western Europe. In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, .In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, Hitler had a powerful ally in his friend Dr. Joseph Goebbels, who became his Minister for Propaganda and Public Enlightenment.
Goebbels had a lavish lifestyle, including fancy homes which he could ill afford. However, one of his representatives explained to newsmen that the Minister was really an extremely modest man who put up with the inconveniences of such an opulent life because of the needs of his official position. Using his persuasive talents, Goebbels was effective in convincing France, England, and the United States that, regardless of appearances, Hitler's actual goal was to control Bolshevik expansion from the east. Goebbels' craftiness is reflected in one of his often-quoted statements: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter but with guns." His approach to conquering a country was to first establish a friendly neighborly relationship with the country. After this relationship was firmly established, a program of criticizing the policies and leaders of the country was begun. This was followed by threats of violence and of the need for the people to get rid of their leaders and to capitulate to his demands. The last stage was to allow deliberate confusion to grow, followed by invasion and taking control of the nation's radio stations.
Eventually, after many conquests, the tide of World War II started changing, and conditions went from bad to worse for Hitler. Many of his associates, perceiving unquestionable defeat, deserted him. Finally Hitler and his wife, whom he had just married the day before, along with Goebbels, his wife and their six children, all took their lives in an underground bunker in Berlin as the Russians were overtaking the city. Despite this tragic ending, the success of Hitler and Goebbels, which had lasted for a number of years, remains as one of the puzzling events of human history. How could the stratagems that led to plunder and mass murder be justified and engender the loyally that they did? A significant factor in that success was Goebbels' crafty promotional endeavors which took advantage of the pervasive ignorance of humanity.
On a less dramatic scale, but more insidious in its effects, a similar problem exists when experts on a given subject are instructing laypersons. Typical settings would be the public lecture hall, the classroom, the convention hall, or the church. There the lecturers or teachers are at an advantage over their audience, because they are much better prepared and know, or should know, much more than anyone else in the audience about the topic under discussion. Often the listeners have the same philosophical "flavor" as the speakers, because they have come to hear about a subject they are already interested in, or they want to have their worldview affirmed. In the classroom the instruction can reflect a particular political, nationalistic, or religious viewpoint. The type of books and journal articles emphasized can stimulate a particular bias that the innocent reader does not recognize. With the specialist-laymen arrangement, the eagerness of the laymen to learn and the enthusiasm of the specialist to promote a particular view can generate a not-so-healthy synergistic enthusiasm in which the expert takes advantage of the ignorance of the listener. In life we are too often at the mercy of the experts whose credentials may be impressive, but whose integrity, wisdom, and knowledge remain unevaluated by the listener.
Our worldview, or as some prefer to call it, our personal basic philosophy or religion, usually extends beyond simple facts as we address the more complex questions such as the meaning of existence and the ensuing implications about life beyond the grave. These deeper, complex and extremely important questions are easily influenced by the pronouncements of experts, and because of this they especially need to be sheltered from the pitfalls of collective ignorance. The fact that worldviews are complex and not as easily evaluated as simple facts makes them particularly susceptible to the innocence of collective ignorance. In this area we can easily be deceived.
It turns out that our collective ignorance has the collective disadvantage of mass delusion; whether it be the influence of Goebbels, the specialist of Madison Avenue, or a host of what we respectfully call experts. The solution is to be constantly on our guard lest advantage be taken of our ignorance, of which we all have an abundant supply.
Be independent
But this maybe above the scope of Billy and SAS
Last edited by gccpro; 27th Jul 2005 at 12:22.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: TRY TO FIND THE BEST PLACE
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So to be independent means, make my own decision without any external influence ( in this case pseudo-call specialist) ...it's very ironic to see you guys using a pseudo-specialist(Roth) to convince me that I'm wrong and you are right ! Just like Goebbels did.
So let me be independent, thanks for your advice!
So let me be independent, thanks for your advice!
I was not his helicopter pilot....sorry.
The point you missed is I have had the pleasure and benefit of dealing with Arabs and Muslims from all walks of life....from Kings to nomadic shepherds and thus have some insight of my own....formed firsthand.
If you would open you eyes,ears, and brain.....you would see that I have said nothing disparaging about Muslims or Arabs. I did however speak ill of Islamists that preach jihad, killing, and hate who perform Terrorist acts. I am sure there are many Arabs and Muslims who agree completely with what I say and would consider your comments as I do.
That being so....your opinions are just that....you are welcome to them but they are not immune from challenge just as mine are not either.
The difference dear boy....is I at least will listen to the other side and agree or disagree as I understand their positions to be. I do not understand yours and that must be apparant.
You on the other hand....find it impossible to consider there might be valid views that are not your own.
That is the sad part to this whole situation. That one can be so caught up in self indulgence that reality is as desired....not as it really is.
The point you missed is I have had the pleasure and benefit of dealing with Arabs and Muslims from all walks of life....from Kings to nomadic shepherds and thus have some insight of my own....formed firsthand.
If you would open you eyes,ears, and brain.....you would see that I have said nothing disparaging about Muslims or Arabs. I did however speak ill of Islamists that preach jihad, killing, and hate who perform Terrorist acts. I am sure there are many Arabs and Muslims who agree completely with what I say and would consider your comments as I do.
That being so....your opinions are just that....you are welcome to them but they are not immune from challenge just as mine are not either.
The difference dear boy....is I at least will listen to the other side and agree or disagree as I understand their positions to be. I do not understand yours and that must be apparant.
You on the other hand....find it impossible to consider there might be valid views that are not your own.
That is the sad part to this whole situation. That one can be so caught up in self indulgence that reality is as desired....not as it really is.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys are really getting stuck in to this topic. To the point of overlooking the fact that you are not going to change it so what is the point of discussing it.
The point of view that may prevail here is that of the law of averages. In the sense that when the killing starts you may be lucky not to be in that spot at that time. Good luck
The point of view that may prevail here is that of the law of averages. In the sense that when the killing starts you may be lucky not to be in that spot at that time. Good luck
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah please!, Condescendence is the only resort you have to make a point. Go on....
SAS, difference of opinion is what it is all about I must hand it to you, "dear Boy" for at least acknowledging that fact.
The facts are that western press does write about the desire of some factions to rid their country of muslims, so do not detract from the original thread into personal diatribe on the essence of my character. so is the subject of this post something new?
No it is not, simply that when it is about a "terrorist, muslim, arabic" entity expressing a view like AL Jazeera does for example everyone is thrown on the bandwagon and tarnished with the same brush: "All terrorists"
Yet you come to live here, eat the bread and harvest the benefits, but will never accept or respect their opinion before shooting it down with contempt.
I am not really worried of what you think, I only think it to be my obligation to perhaps point the right direction.
Now if you have difficulties with that and cannot see beyond, it is indeed your problem and not mine.
Please remember that the age of "Saheb" Old boy is gone.
Now the reason of the links that I have posted isn't to prove you wrong, on the contrary but to show how right you are in your opinion about Arabs and muslims in General, and behind that mask of "I have met and seen kings and peasants" lies the ubiquitous colonial spirit of Justice blinded within her own interpretation of others' opinions and facts.
And finally, I do support my findings with supporting documents, where are yours? Because apart from the twisted regret that colonialism is gone, I do not see anything factual past a sorry rethoric.
You have your modern day hitler, live with it, but that does not mean we have to too.
Bye bye old boy
The difference dear boy....
The facts are that western press does write about the desire of some factions to rid their country of muslims, so do not detract from the original thread into personal diatribe on the essence of my character. so is the subject of this post something new?
No it is not, simply that when it is about a "terrorist, muslim, arabic" entity expressing a view like AL Jazeera does for example everyone is thrown on the bandwagon and tarnished with the same brush: "All terrorists"
Yet you come to live here, eat the bread and harvest the benefits, but will never accept or respect their opinion before shooting it down with contempt.
I am not really worried of what you think, I only think it to be my obligation to perhaps point the right direction.
Now if you have difficulties with that and cannot see beyond, it is indeed your problem and not mine.
Please remember that the age of "Saheb" Old boy is gone.
Now the reason of the links that I have posted isn't to prove you wrong, on the contrary but to show how right you are in your opinion about Arabs and muslims in General, and behind that mask of "I have met and seen kings and peasants" lies the ubiquitous colonial spirit of Justice blinded within her own interpretation of others' opinions and facts.
And finally, I do support my findings with supporting documents, where are yours? Because apart from the twisted regret that colonialism is gone, I do not see anything factual past a sorry rethoric.
You have your modern day hitler, live with it, but that does not mean we have to too.
Bye bye old boy
Last edited by AMX10; 27th Jul 2005 at 13:52.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Suitcase
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have yet to have any problems with Arabs, especially Muslim Arabs. Overall good people, very hospitable and outgoing everywhere I go. I think its really our attitudes now theirs. If you go into their country showing no respect to their culture and look like an ignorant westerner then of course they are going to hate you.
I think the biggest problem is not the Arabs but the media, they blow everything out of proportion and twist the stories to make them look so terrible because as they will tell you theres no news like bad news. I mean why would you tell the world that your country flushed a Quran down the toilet??? You must be out of your mind. Thats why they hate the west! We are ignorant Capitalists who will kill for money because thats more important than our families.
The Muslims are worried we will bring that kind of life to their homelands and they dont want that.
I think the biggest problem is not the Arabs but the media, they blow everything out of proportion and twist the stories to make them look so terrible because as they will tell you theres no news like bad news. I mean why would you tell the world that your country flushed a Quran down the toilet??? You must be out of your mind. Thats why they hate the west! We are ignorant Capitalists who will kill for money because thats more important than our families.
The Muslims are worried we will bring that kind of life to their homelands and they dont want that.