2 new DEC on EK 777
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: Varies!
Scooter
You may well be correct re. B777 situation, however, slightly confused over your A380 logic. Captains will of course be allowed to transfer from within EK onto the 380 as they are ALREADY Captains. So it's not a transition UPGRADE .
Regards
BYMONEK
You may well be correct re. B777 situation, however, slightly confused over your A380 logic. Captains will of course be allowed to transfer from within EK onto the 380 as they are ALREADY Captains. So it's not a transition UPGRADE .
Regards
BYMONEK
Guest
Posts: n/a
conclusion of the many posts:
at ek you are basically stuck where they put you on in the first place, as any transition or upgrade or any combination thereof costs money and you are unproductive during training and you then need to be replaced, which costs more money .......
all this unless you are a local or a dinosaur on the 777, they all seem to get the ticket to go on the 380, which will make this a place not to be ........ ai will shudder by the thought of this huge airbus expertise beeing the first flying pig jockeys ........ but then, according to ai, my grand mother could fly any airbus and ek fo's do not have enough experience to get a upgrade on it .......
at ek you are basically stuck where they put you on in the first place, as any transition or upgrade or any combination thereof costs money and you are unproductive during training and you then need to be replaced, which costs more money .......
all this unless you are a local or a dinosaur on the 777, they all seem to get the ticket to go on the 380, which will make this a place not to be ........ ai will shudder by the thought of this huge airbus expertise beeing the first flying pig jockeys ........ but then, according to ai, my grand mother could fly any airbus and ek fo's do not have enough experience to get a upgrade on it .......
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: Here and Now
This from what I consider a very reliable source and only relaying what was said to me as I consider it "interesting."
When EK was looking into the 343's they were going to crew them with Atlas guys, much the same way that Atlas runs the 747 Cargo flights. The GCAA would have nothing doing with an American operation flying A6 registered aircraft on a leased/contract basis so hence the rush to hire DEC's and of course as many F/O's as they could interest as the 343's came into the EK fold.
EK will make whatever contract they see fit on an individual basis in order to get the DEC's here. Believe me, all the DEC's do not have the identical contract!
I agree with most posts that the DEC program was not and is not needed considering the quality of F/O's here. What management is telling us in effect is that they don't have any faith in the quality and level of their own training program. If they did they would be saying something along the lines of.... Our training is so superior that our F/O's are ready for the left seat after employment here of 18 mos - 2 years, that coupled with their previous experience.
I haven't looked back in the thread to see who said what but it seems to me that one post assumes that "we are leaving good paying jobs as Captains to come and work here (some as F/O's)so quit the whining." What that person fails to acknowledge is that many who have been hired here in the last 4 or 5 yrs have come from failed Airlines with no where else to go, especially after 9/11. I won't go into naming the bankrupt companies because we all know who they are...except for that one poster apparently!
Would I have come here if the last Airline hadn't gone into Bankruptcy? HELL NO! Even with taxes it was a lifestyle and Country our family grew up in and we miss it and extended family tremendously. We have made the best of Dubai and it ain't so bad after all except for one minor point, when Management at EK get invovled it usually has a negative effect on all. Just the seperated distance from parents, siblings Uncles Aunts etc is what makes it difficult. To have someone brag about his ability to come and go from Dubai (or wherever) at his leisure and drop what ever amount of money he wants because he gets loads of cash after taxes is antagonistic. Just a hunch that as long as he has money he has blood suckers hanging around masquerading as friends.
As far as the transitions are concerned the way I understand it , a newly upgraded Captain is frozen on that type for 6 years from FLC. I suspect that not many DEC's will be coming on to the 380 from anywhere else as the other Airlines operating them by then are fairly decent to work for. As well, the A330 up to the 380 is considered one type by Emirates. Management will have to revamp the transition upgrade policy most likely by then and that would allow senior 777 guys to transfer over, apparently to the disappointment of some. Hopefully for those that want to, management would allow those on the Airbus who wanted to transfer to the 777 an open door and not continue the DEC format.
Just one man's point of view.
When EK was looking into the 343's they were going to crew them with Atlas guys, much the same way that Atlas runs the 747 Cargo flights. The GCAA would have nothing doing with an American operation flying A6 registered aircraft on a leased/contract basis so hence the rush to hire DEC's and of course as many F/O's as they could interest as the 343's came into the EK fold.
EK will make whatever contract they see fit on an individual basis in order to get the DEC's here. Believe me, all the DEC's do not have the identical contract!
I agree with most posts that the DEC program was not and is not needed considering the quality of F/O's here. What management is telling us in effect is that they don't have any faith in the quality and level of their own training program. If they did they would be saying something along the lines of.... Our training is so superior that our F/O's are ready for the left seat after employment here of 18 mos - 2 years, that coupled with their previous experience.
I haven't looked back in the thread to see who said what but it seems to me that one post assumes that "we are leaving good paying jobs as Captains to come and work here (some as F/O's)so quit the whining." What that person fails to acknowledge is that many who have been hired here in the last 4 or 5 yrs have come from failed Airlines with no where else to go, especially after 9/11. I won't go into naming the bankrupt companies because we all know who they are...except for that one poster apparently!
Would I have come here if the last Airline hadn't gone into Bankruptcy? HELL NO! Even with taxes it was a lifestyle and Country our family grew up in and we miss it and extended family tremendously. We have made the best of Dubai and it ain't so bad after all except for one minor point, when Management at EK get invovled it usually has a negative effect on all. Just the seperated distance from parents, siblings Uncles Aunts etc is what makes it difficult. To have someone brag about his ability to come and go from Dubai (or wherever) at his leisure and drop what ever amount of money he wants because he gets loads of cash after taxes is antagonistic. Just a hunch that as long as he has money he has blood suckers hanging around masquerading as friends.
As far as the transitions are concerned the way I understand it , a newly upgraded Captain is frozen on that type for 6 years from FLC. I suspect that not many DEC's will be coming on to the 380 from anywhere else as the other Airlines operating them by then are fairly decent to work for. As well, the A330 up to the 380 is considered one type by Emirates. Management will have to revamp the transition upgrade policy most likely by then and that would allow senior 777 guys to transfer over, apparently to the disappointment of some. Hopefully for those that want to, management would allow those on the Airbus who wanted to transfer to the 777 an open door and not continue the DEC format.
Just one man's point of view.
Last edited by XKV8; 23rd July 2005 at 15:31.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: OZ
Here's a thought...no transitions from the 330/340 or 777 to the 380. Just recruit Captains and FOs straight on to it, suddenly the lack of EK applications would turn into a flood...
The above idea is covered by copyrite and cannot be used without considerable payment to its author
The above idea is covered by copyrite and cannot be used without considerable payment to its author
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
From: Gulf playing Golf
True info is hard to have about the future here. Speculation will have to sufice.
FOM says that the transfere policy is To Be Advised. TBA.
Surely it will be a combination of B777, AB and DECs in the left seat and off the street FOs. Then again we were transfering A332 FOs to the A340 with 6 months left to command.
...how about this..lets see the darn thing on the ramp first
FOM says that the transfere policy is To Be Advised. TBA.
Surely it will be a combination of B777, AB and DECs in the left seat and off the street FOs. Then again we were transfering A332 FOs to the A340 with 6 months left to command.
...how about this..lets see the darn thing on the ramp first
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Far Away
BYMONEK,you said AS has made and implemented some good decisions since he arrived.
Could you name one?
Have heard the latest brainstorm from Disneyland is to hire DEC and DEP(FO) straight onto 380.i think Max AB is right people may well review their interest.
Off to the pub for a coldie,QB
Could you name one?
Have heard the latest brainstorm from Disneyland is to hire DEC and DEP(FO) straight onto 380.i think Max AB is right people may well review their interest.
Off to the pub for a coldie,QB
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,118
Likes: 140
From: overthere
Come on Quod Boy, TCAS did tell us to wear our hats, he also mentioned we should keep those ties on in the training college. And also came up with the idea that we need to listen to ATC and change freqs when told too. Inspirational stuff !!!!
He did tell us that the new pay deal was cost neutral. He has stood rock steady about our FTLs eg: we will factor, we will not factor, you can only log this amount etc etc.
I am sure he mentioned something about outdoor plumbing and freedom of speech, but I can not remember those bits.
Don
He did tell us that the new pay deal was cost neutral. He has stood rock steady about our FTLs eg: we will factor, we will not factor, you can only log this amount etc etc.
I am sure he mentioned something about outdoor plumbing and freedom of speech, but I can not remember those bits.
Don
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
A380 crewing and the rest...
I can confirm that only about 25% of A380 F/O's will come from inside the company, all the rest will come from outside direct on the A380. Reason for that is economical. If you would upgrade an existing F/O to A380, it would only be for a year or so before that F/O can get a command on the A330... at least that's the reasoning of management.
Why not finally start with a decent career plan?
For example...
2 groups:
1a A330 / A340-300
1b A340 - 500/600
1c A380
2a B777
2b B777 ER/LR
Because of logistical and economical reasons, people can only swap groups (so from Airbus to Boeing or Vica Versa) after 5 years or so.. Swapping between the subdivisions in the Airbus group is possible after 2 years in that subdivision. Entry level for airbus would be A330, all swaps based on seniority.
When places would be available on a certain aircraft, a job vacation wuold be sent via email, and people who meet the criteria can bid for the seat.
Upgrades are exempted from the 5 years in the same group, so transition upgrades are possible, but are not exempted from the 2 years minimum on a subdivision, so if a F/O wants his rating A380, that's ok, as long as he understands that he will be stuck as an F/O for at least 2 years on the fleet.
This is a very basic idea, you would need some fine tuning of course, and it would be a very fair system, where people can actually choose the fleet they want to fly, do their time on it, and if yhey want a change afterwards, they can do it... Would suit changes in family life where people prefer medium or long haul (by choosing the appropriate subdivision)
If a job vacation lacks suitable candidates, EK can put direct entry candidates on it, it would not botter anyone, since no one bidded for that seat anyhow.
This policy could work for Captains straight away. On F/O side, as long as time to command is around three years, there should be some additional rules, but once whe start speaking of commands in 5 years, which won't be to far away anymore for the newjoiners (not because of that stupid rule of 3 years to command, but basic maths), then the same rules could apply for both F/O's and Captains.
As I said, this is just a very basic thought that just sprung to mind, needs a lot of finetuning, so shoot...
MR8
Why not finally start with a decent career plan?
For example...
2 groups:
1a A330 / A340-300
1b A340 - 500/600
1c A380
2a B777
2b B777 ER/LR
Because of logistical and economical reasons, people can only swap groups (so from Airbus to Boeing or Vica Versa) after 5 years or so.. Swapping between the subdivisions in the Airbus group is possible after 2 years in that subdivision. Entry level for airbus would be A330, all swaps based on seniority.
When places would be available on a certain aircraft, a job vacation wuold be sent via email, and people who meet the criteria can bid for the seat.
Upgrades are exempted from the 5 years in the same group, so transition upgrades are possible, but are not exempted from the 2 years minimum on a subdivision, so if a F/O wants his rating A380, that's ok, as long as he understands that he will be stuck as an F/O for at least 2 years on the fleet.
This is a very basic idea, you would need some fine tuning of course, and it would be a very fair system, where people can actually choose the fleet they want to fly, do their time on it, and if yhey want a change afterwards, they can do it... Would suit changes in family life where people prefer medium or long haul (by choosing the appropriate subdivision)
If a job vacation lacks suitable candidates, EK can put direct entry candidates on it, it would not botter anyone, since no one bidded for that seat anyhow.
This policy could work for Captains straight away. On F/O side, as long as time to command is around three years, there should be some additional rules, but once whe start speaking of commands in 5 years, which won't be to far away anymore for the newjoiners (not because of that stupid rule of 3 years to command, but basic maths), then the same rules could apply for both F/O's and Captains.
As I said, this is just a very basic thought that just sprung to mind, needs a lot of finetuning, so shoot...
MR8
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Just for what it is worth.
I have heard that Airbus have said that, initially, they will only train people with previous A340 experience, (possibly A330 too, not sure), onto the A380 if this type is new to the company buying it and the training is being done at Toulouse.
This is definitely the path being followed by one major Far East carrier. EK, who are buying a lot of airframes, may be able to get Airbus to change this policy, if they want to or it may suit them just fine. It would seem likely that current A340 crews are probably going to be first onto the A380.
I have heard that Airbus have said that, initially, they will only train people with previous A340 experience, (possibly A330 too, not sure), onto the A380 if this type is new to the company buying it and the training is being done at Toulouse.
This is definitely the path being followed by one major Far East carrier. EK, who are buying a lot of airframes, may be able to get Airbus to change this policy, if they want to or it may suit them just fine. It would seem likely that current A340 crews are probably going to be first onto the A380.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
Cerberus,
No, actually quite low on the seniority list, never came close to a management function... But it doesn't hurt asking these things when talking to someone who is up there where decisions are made. You should try it once, these people actually talk to us...
Best regards,
MR8
No, actually quite low on the seniority list, never came close to a management function... But it doesn't hurt asking these things when talking to someone who is up there where decisions are made. You should try it once, these people actually talk to us...
Best regards,
MR8
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: UK
MR8,
So it was a flagrant rumour then! I have been told in the past by VP level people that we are guaranteed all sorts of things that have never come to fruition. I remember sitting at a pilot's meeting where those in the front row were completely dumbfounded by the announcements being made.
Top tip, if someone actually has some power and knows what is going on they tend to keep their cards close to the chest. Those that puff out there chests and spill the beans generally are giving you the benefit of their experience to try and look good. Or worse still making assumptions and as you well know; to assume makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'
Cerberus
So it was a flagrant rumour then! I have been told in the past by VP level people that we are guaranteed all sorts of things that have never come to fruition. I remember sitting at a pilot's meeting where those in the front row were completely dumbfounded by the announcements being made.
Top tip, if someone actually has some power and knows what is going on they tend to keep their cards close to the chest. Those that puff out there chests and spill the beans generally are giving you the benefit of their experience to try and look good. Or worse still making assumptions and as you well know; to assume makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'
Cerberus
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Kent, UK
Question...
If one guy has been waiting for 8 years for a Command, does that mean that all F/O's that joined after him are still waiting for upgrade? or is it the case that F/O's who joined after have got the nod?
Do not work for airlines. Curious as to how things should/do work
JB
If one guy has been waiting for 8 years for a Command, does that mean that all F/O's that joined after him are still waiting for upgrade? or is it the case that F/O's who joined after have got the nod?
Do not work for airlines. Curious as to how things should/do work
JB
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
From: IN THE PIT
So no one heard about the 2 x 345s not coming this year, see also Perth 2nd Autumn flight now gone because of this. What about airbus upgrades now! Also I am suprised no one has yet posted about the recent immiinent departure of a more senior member of the jumpseat policy people if rumours are to be believed! THere is only 1 person who IS jump seat .....ed and all the family.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Utopia
Duff gen
Guys, flew with a senior management pilot and "at the moment" this is the outlook. The 2 345's will come but as soon as they arrive 2 will go back to airbus for retrofit to fuel tanks (as in Concorde). Now for the "good news", extra 300ER's will be bought as well as 200LR and 200LRF. They will REPLACE 345's and 343's as anybody with a brain can figure out the economics of fuel burn at 60$ a barrell
Also, they decided last week not to allow transition upgrades and as you all know they will get DEC's on the 380's and 777's.
I wonder what will happen to those fortunate Scarebus fo's stuck on a shrinking fleet with no transition upgrades???
Don't shoot the messenger
Oh by the way, 600's not coming!!
Guys, flew with a senior management pilot and "at the moment" this is the outlook. The 2 345's will come but as soon as they arrive 2 will go back to airbus for retrofit to fuel tanks (as in Concorde). Now for the "good news", extra 300ER's will be bought as well as 200LR and 200LRF. They will REPLACE 345's and 343's as anybody with a brain can figure out the economics of fuel burn at 60$ a barrell
Also, they decided last week not to allow transition upgrades and as you all know they will get DEC's on the 380's and 777's.
I wonder what will happen to those fortunate Scarebus fo's stuck on a shrinking fleet with no transition upgrades???
Don't shoot the messenger
Oh by the way, 600's not coming!!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
I can only presume from the gleeful tone of your post that you are on the 777. I'm very happy for you.
You say 'dont shoot the messenger' but then use a smiley after your comment about trans upgrades. Just remember you silly little man, we all work for the same company and we're all in this together.
You say that 2 A345's are goining back for a tank retrofit? Presumably that wont take more than a few weeks, so whats your point?
Also for your information, I was flying with the CP Airbus very recently, and he said (and I quote) 'The company will have no choice but to re-introduce transition upgrades' . So when I come accross from the 'Bus to the 777 and you're my F/O, I shall remaind you of the callus tone of your post
You say 'dont shoot the messenger' but then use a
smiley after your comment about trans upgrades. Just remember you silly little man, we all work for the same company and we're all in this together.You say that 2 A345's are goining back for a tank retrofit? Presumably that wont take more than a few weeks, so whats your point?
Also for your information, I was flying with the CP Airbus very recently, and he said (and I quote) 'The company will have no choice but to re-introduce transition upgrades' . So when I come accross from the 'Bus to the 777 and you're my F/O, I shall remaind you of the callus tone of your post