Emirates T and C changes
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Emirates T and C changes
These are the changes that have occurred at Emirates wrt the pilot group in the last year. I will endeavour to list the changes with as much objectivity as possible.
Keep in mind that I want qualified F/O’s applying to Emirates as this will undoubtedly further my career as opposed to the further insertion of DEC’s ahead of me and others in my position.
-an average work month of ~75hrs/month increased to an average of ~91hrs/month
-insertion of ‘operational plans’ for various destinations that would otherwise require breaking flight duty limits
-the use of scheduled block hours that do not reflect the actual time required to carry out a flight. In other words, shaving off of 10 to 15 minutes per leg that would have counted towards our monthly credit limit
-duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
-an increase of fatigue ASR’s (air safety reports) from 1 per 4 months to 3 per week
-the resignation of an individual via ASR, citing fatigue and safety concerns
-simulator and groundschool duties not counting towards flight duty limits
-the DEC policy
-a loss of quality TRE’s and TRI’s
-the JNB accident
-the resignation of TCK yet replaced by someone worse
-the insertion of reserve days throughout my schedule, thereby breaking up any stretch of days off.
-an average of 1 reserve day/month increased to an average of 4 reserve days/month
-reserve days no longer counted towards pay or monthly duty limits (resulting in being able to have us available on 45 minutes notice for 10 hours at no cost to the company)
-the probability of being called to work on reserve dramatically increased
-the enforcement of written authorization to leave dubai on ‘off’ days
-the coming and going of the illegal ‘factored’ flying hours , although there is nothing official about the demise of this policy
-the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC.
-the utilization of crew rest facilities consisting of a first class seat sometimes seated next to a passenger. This results in rest taken during in-flight services etc.
-the institution of the ‘fatigue model’ into the bidding system
-the institution of the adopt bid system
-the removal of credit and block hours listed on our schedules
-the inability to take leave during the year due to the lack of available leave periods
-the discontinuation of paper flight documents, replaced by CDroms
- an increase in the number of pilots willingly working on days off
-a huge increase in the number of ‘no shows’ on initial courses
-a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
-a massive increase in the number of pilots resigning from Emirates and also from positions within Emirates
-a shift from the normal pleasant and occasional bitchy atmosphere in the cockpit and Europcar, to a constant and unpleasant atmosphere of frustration and disgust
-massive cost of living increases
-a 1.5% pay increase
-
-a 2.5 BILLION Dhs profit
This is presented only as information for those considering a position at Emirates Airlines simply as a means to make an informed decision.
Keep in mind that I want qualified F/O’s applying to Emirates as this will undoubtedly further my career as opposed to the further insertion of DEC’s ahead of me and others in my position.
-an average work month of ~75hrs/month increased to an average of ~91hrs/month
-insertion of ‘operational plans’ for various destinations that would otherwise require breaking flight duty limits
-the use of scheduled block hours that do not reflect the actual time required to carry out a flight. In other words, shaving off of 10 to 15 minutes per leg that would have counted towards our monthly credit limit
-duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
-an increase of fatigue ASR’s (air safety reports) from 1 per 4 months to 3 per week
-the resignation of an individual via ASR, citing fatigue and safety concerns
-simulator and groundschool duties not counting towards flight duty limits
-the DEC policy
-a loss of quality TRE’s and TRI’s
-the JNB accident
-the resignation of TCK yet replaced by someone worse
-the insertion of reserve days throughout my schedule, thereby breaking up any stretch of days off.
-an average of 1 reserve day/month increased to an average of 4 reserve days/month
-reserve days no longer counted towards pay or monthly duty limits (resulting in being able to have us available on 45 minutes notice for 10 hours at no cost to the company)
-the probability of being called to work on reserve dramatically increased
-the enforcement of written authorization to leave dubai on ‘off’ days
-the coming and going of the illegal ‘factored’ flying hours , although there is nothing official about the demise of this policy
-the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC.
-the utilization of crew rest facilities consisting of a first class seat sometimes seated next to a passenger. This results in rest taken during in-flight services etc.
-the institution of the ‘fatigue model’ into the bidding system
-the institution of the adopt bid system
-the removal of credit and block hours listed on our schedules
-the inability to take leave during the year due to the lack of available leave periods
-the discontinuation of paper flight documents, replaced by CDroms
- an increase in the number of pilots willingly working on days off
-a huge increase in the number of ‘no shows’ on initial courses
-a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
-a massive increase in the number of pilots resigning from Emirates and also from positions within Emirates
-a shift from the normal pleasant and occasional bitchy atmosphere in the cockpit and Europcar, to a constant and unpleasant atmosphere of frustration and disgust
-massive cost of living increases
-a 1.5% pay increase
-
-a 2.5 BILLION Dhs profit
This is presented only as information for those considering a position at Emirates Airlines simply as a means to make an informed decision.
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My dear fellow,one word to you,WOW
I just came back from my interview with EK,they did not mention all the stuff you pointed out,which is quite normal,but I'd like to know how long have you been with EK,and where you worked before?
It really seems to me that most what you mentioned is (no offense) normal.I also work in the arab world in a fairly large company,and believe me you that its the same story.
No matter how we try as pilots to show managment that we are the backbone of the company,it seems they dont give a rat's ass as long as the carrot at the end of the stick is nice and ripe in the view of some of us,that is a sad fact to be honest,and if you ever leave your company,you'll just go looking for a bigger and nicer carrot some where else,and if your a lucky chap,you might even find it hanging on a shorter stick,and in a false sensation of triumph,you get the feeling that at last you might get to grab it, but alas.
I work in bad conditionts in my company,and with all due respect to what you say and what I have read on pprune, EK is still a dream which I hope could come true,sorry if I seem a bit on the negative side to you ,but you are still working for a company that is one of the best out there, and I think if you get your promrtion tommorrow you wouldn't be pissed off that much.
I hope you all the best and I know I'll be getting lots of back fire, so, bring it on
Over and Out
MAX
I just came back from my interview with EK,they did not mention all the stuff you pointed out,which is quite normal,but I'd like to know how long have you been with EK,and where you worked before?
It really seems to me that most what you mentioned is (no offense) normal.I also work in the arab world in a fairly large company,and believe me you that its the same story.
No matter how we try as pilots to show managment that we are the backbone of the company,it seems they dont give a rat's ass as long as the carrot at the end of the stick is nice and ripe in the view of some of us,that is a sad fact to be honest,and if you ever leave your company,you'll just go looking for a bigger and nicer carrot some where else,and if your a lucky chap,you might even find it hanging on a shorter stick,and in a false sensation of triumph,you get the feeling that at last you might get to grab it, but alas.
I work in bad conditionts in my company,and with all due respect to what you say and what I have read on pprune, EK is still a dream which I hope could come true,sorry if I seem a bit on the negative side to you ,but you are still working for a company that is one of the best out there, and I think if you get your promrtion tommorrow you wouldn't be pissed off that much.
I hope you all the best and I know I'll be getting lots of back fire, so, bring it on
Over and Out
MAX
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Mensaboy,
Very erudite post indeed.
Ignore VVV.Hes the type they love.
Good luck.You speak fact,not fiction.
Quite why EK are pursuing this line of negative PR is beyond me.
Off to the pub.QB
Very erudite post indeed.
Ignore VVV.Hes the type they love.
Good luck.You speak fact,not fiction.
Quite why EK are pursuing this line of negative PR is beyond me.
Off to the pub.QB
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Gents,
Two more resignations today.
Mensaboy you are soooo right.
Also, do not forget that we are technically not paid for leave anymore.
If you have let's say 10 days of leave in a month, you can bet your 4 weeks worth of insult that the company will make sure you work a minimum of 60-70 hours in the remaining 20.
Now that's EK for you!
/Pork
Two more resignations today.
Mensaboy you are soooo right.
Also, do not forget that we are technically not paid for leave anymore.
If you have let's say 10 days of leave in a month, you can bet your 4 weeks worth of insult that the company will make sure you work a minimum of 60-70 hours in the remaining 20.
Now that's EK for you!
/Pork
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Pork,
I'm getting excited. !! There has to be tubes of aluminium parked up against the fence sooooon.
Maybe someone will change the saying "Keep discovering" to "Greed is Good".
I'm getting excited. !! There has to be tubes of aluminium parked up against the fence sooooon.
Maybe someone will change the saying "Keep discovering" to "Greed is Good".
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My two 'sen' worth
Quote
- duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
Unquote
The 30 minutes post flight is still there - that's where you add 30 minutes to your ON CHOCKS time and calculate your next duty. That determines the rest you need before the next duty.
The FDP on the other hand ends - ON CHOCKS. They are totally different.
There is a subtle difference between Flying Duty Period, Flying Hours and Duty Hours.
FDP = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks
Flying Hours = Airplane first moves under it's own power till it comes to rest upon completion of flight (This is being disputed factor or not)
Duty Hours = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks + 30 minutes Postflight
FDP influences safety of the current flight whereas Duty Hours influences rest before the next duty.
All 3 cumulatively affect safety and fatigue.
Note the difference where Flying Hours are referred to for 28 day and 12 month periods and Duty Hours are referred to for 7,14 and 28 day cycles.
These are all adopted from the CAP371 - a UK document with changes by EK. I don't agree with all of them e.g. rest in seat/bunk but the main framework remains untouched.
Quote
- a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
Unquote
Guess economics and exchange rates play a role in this. Hope there aren't sinister reasons involved.
As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview.
Quote
- duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
Unquote
The 30 minutes post flight is still there - that's where you add 30 minutes to your ON CHOCKS time and calculate your next duty. That determines the rest you need before the next duty.
The FDP on the other hand ends - ON CHOCKS. They are totally different.
There is a subtle difference between Flying Duty Period, Flying Hours and Duty Hours.
FDP = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks
Flying Hours = Airplane first moves under it's own power till it comes to rest upon completion of flight (This is being disputed factor or not)
Duty Hours = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks + 30 minutes Postflight
FDP influences safety of the current flight whereas Duty Hours influences rest before the next duty.
All 3 cumulatively affect safety and fatigue.
Note the difference where Flying Hours are referred to for 28 day and 12 month periods and Duty Hours are referred to for 7,14 and 28 day cycles.
These are all adopted from the CAP371 - a UK document with changes by EK. I don't agree with all of them e.g. rest in seat/bunk but the main framework remains untouched.
Quote
- a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
Unquote
Guess economics and exchange rates play a role in this. Hope there aren't sinister reasons involved.
As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview.
Well Marcellus
"As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview."
That is the thousand Dirham question at the moment, according to a recruiter I flew with, some of the less successful applicants had been passed by senior management. Make of that what you will.
Mensa --- "the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC" --- twaddle, doesnt matter where they are when resting, guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions..
Agree with most of what you say tho'
Whatever happened to the Joburg 2....??????
"As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview."
That is the thousand Dirham question at the moment, according to a recruiter I flew with, some of the less successful applicants had been passed by senior management. Make of that what you will.
Mensa --- "the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC" --- twaddle, doesnt matter where they are when resting, guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions..
Agree with most of what you say tho'
Whatever happened to the Joburg 2....??????
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145qrh
"guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions'..
What absolute twaddle. The guy in the front is at best a cruise captain who has been trained to handle an engine failure and a depressurisation. He is not a captain, he has not been trained as a captain and he has not been assessed as a captain.
If he was trained and qualified to make the decisions he would have 4 bars and be called captain and receive somewhere in the vicinity of 6000 dhs extra by way of insult.
Marcellus is quite correct in his implication that it is a long way from the BCRC to the front of a 340 when you are the captain and the blue side is down.
"guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions'..
What absolute twaddle. The guy in the front is at best a cruise captain who has been trained to handle an engine failure and a depressurisation. He is not a captain, he has not been trained as a captain and he has not been assessed as a captain.
If he was trained and qualified to make the decisions he would have 4 bars and be called captain and receive somewhere in the vicinity of 6000 dhs extra by way of insult.
Marcellus is quite correct in his implication that it is a long way from the BCRC to the front of a 340 when you are the captain and the blue side is down.
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Marcellus,having been involved in pilot selection at EK,I can assure you the standard,is "variable".When I was there,it was generally very good,but that is because the system,was run by pilots for pilots,with some HR input.It truly was balanced,I saw excellent candidates miss out,because of what I considered minor shortcomings,equally others made it in,by the skin of their teeth.
The original regime,(that was dropped by our former leader in one of his moments of fancy and inherited by the current flt ops management),did a great job IMHO.Very few problem children slipped through,it was a thorough,cross checked procedure with little room for favouritism.From the group evaluation,sim to pyscho.
Remember,EK take ANY ICAO atpl,and the selection is no longer done by the same system,and like rubber goalposts,the standard is variable,depending on demand,demand is high to get pilots in,but in the meantime,pilots are leaving.Coupled with this,new pilots are failing to show up.This has never happened in my time at EK,but we are told 20-25 apply a day.Really?
I would politely suggest,the demand has eased from pilots who traditionally,would have come to EK,years ago,giving up an existing command or secure slot,from traditional recruitment areas.
IMHO,of course,and that is partly to do with the opening post on this thread.
Off to the pubQB
The original regime,(that was dropped by our former leader in one of his moments of fancy and inherited by the current flt ops management),did a great job IMHO.Very few problem children slipped through,it was a thorough,cross checked procedure with little room for favouritism.From the group evaluation,sim to pyscho.
Remember,EK take ANY ICAO atpl,and the selection is no longer done by the same system,and like rubber goalposts,the standard is variable,depending on demand,demand is high to get pilots in,but in the meantime,pilots are leaving.Coupled with this,new pilots are failing to show up.This has never happened in my time at EK,but we are told 20-25 apply a day.Really?
I would politely suggest,the demand has eased from pilots who traditionally,would have come to EK,years ago,giving up an existing command or secure slot,from traditional recruitment areas.
IMHO,of course,and that is partly to do with the opening post on this thread.
Off to the pubQB
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Sorry to drift from the topic slightly but this may be of interest to those thinking of trying their luck across the water with Qatar Airways: If you take that list and remove the last two items, you have an incredibly accurate picture of what happens over here.
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I think we are all being a little unfair to VVV. The fact he can not see what is going on in EK is not his fault.
Like many of his creed he can not use his own eyes as his sight is impaired by his head being so far up somebody elses arsehole.
Likewise he can not smell or taste as these senses are overpowered by the stench of bull****.
All poor VVV is left with is is hearing and all he can hear is what he is told by his own mentors arse.
Like many of his creed he can not use his own eyes as his sight is impaired by his head being so far up somebody elses arsehole.
Likewise he can not smell or taste as these senses are overpowered by the stench of bull****.
All poor VVV is left with is is hearing and all he can hear is what he is told by his own mentors arse.
Vorstich -- sorry to be a pedant but Marcellus never mentioned the BCRC.
So let me get this straight, 4 bars can give you the ability to rush from half way thro a dump, into the flight deck and rescue the situation when the blue side is down..... bollox....
Just how far away from the left seat is safe 1K, above L2 for 777 rest.
Seems you have control issues my friend, learn to let go and trust other people. BTW I would guess the average F/o , cadets excluded who arent allowed to be there by virtue of lack of ATPL, will be about 6000hrs, more than qualified to keep the blue side up........
So let me get this straight, 4 bars can give you the ability to rush from half way thro a dump, into the flight deck and rescue the situation when the blue side is down..... bollox....
Just how far away from the left seat is safe 1K, above L2 for 777 rest.
Seems you have control issues my friend, learn to let go and trust other people. BTW I would guess the average F/o , cadets excluded who arent allowed to be there by virtue of lack of ATPL, will be about 6000hrs, more than qualified to keep the blue side up........
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The location of the crew rest facilities was made for economic reasons and that is my only point.
Personally, I don't see the issue with the Captain in the bunk, although I can understand the other side as well. But then I'm came from a situation where the F/Os are trained and trusted.
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According to TCAS EK has a highly qualified team of Senior First Officers with a vast wealth of airline flying experience, therefore it's okay for an Osaka to go with a Captain and 2 SFO's.
The Captain can rest in the BCRC safe in the knowledge that for his 4+ hours away from the flight deck, while the aircraft cruises (sometimes) over the Himalayas, Kashmir and into western China, the company have entrusted their brand new A345 full of high fare paying pax and tonnes of valuble cargo to a couple of 'super-dooper' guys who aren't quite good enough at the moment to take an A330 from DXB- DOH, BAH, MCT etc.
Has anybody looked at the categories of SFO's leaving EK? How close are they to their command courses? Isn't EK losing the very guys that they'll need in the medium term (i.e. 1-3 years) to crew their expansion plans? Looks like more DEC's on the way. Has ANYBODY got a definitive figure on how many guys have or are leaving? Are they mainly Capts? Mainly SFO's? Bit of both?
The Captain can rest in the BCRC safe in the knowledge that for his 4+ hours away from the flight deck, while the aircraft cruises (sometimes) over the Himalayas, Kashmir and into western China, the company have entrusted their brand new A345 full of high fare paying pax and tonnes of valuble cargo to a couple of 'super-dooper' guys who aren't quite good enough at the moment to take an A330 from DXB- DOH, BAH, MCT etc.
Has anybody looked at the categories of SFO's leaving EK? How close are they to their command courses? Isn't EK losing the very guys that they'll need in the medium term (i.e. 1-3 years) to crew their expansion plans? Looks like more DEC's on the way. Has ANYBODY got a definitive figure on how many guys have or are leaving? Are they mainly Capts? Mainly SFO's? Bit of both?
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Yep Quod, I believe it's a total of 32 or 33 since late Dec early Jan so far. More to come apparently when the "profit share" is confirmed in the bank and able to be withdrawn.