Emirates Factored Flying Hours
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Emirates Factored Flying Hours
I thought that the rumour buster would not have answered some of my questions, or would have attracted a politically correct response from the management. So I ask it here instead.
The FCI that was allowing the extra flying has now expired, there has been no further mention of this from management. The FOM does not mention it or does our FTL scheme. Alan Steely has written us a one page memo telling us all that the fatigue model coming into use now will not take our bidding concerns into account and will build the roster as it sees best. He says that the factored flying is not being used but being only used on a day to day basis (is this for fire fighting?) He also says that he is in discussion with the GCAA at the moment.
I ask on what legal basis is this extra flying being done at the moment? Most of the guys that I fly with are always approaching 100 hours a month and many are flying more than that, but under what authority? What would happen if there is an accident?
Rumours are being mentioned of an english guy had his UK licence renewal blocked by the CAA due to the extra flying he had done under the 'factored' scheme. Any truth with this rumour?
Does the other long haul pilots operate with a factored Scheme? Cathay? Singapore? Virgin? How do you all log these hours?
The FCI that was allowing the extra flying has now expired, there has been no further mention of this from management. The FOM does not mention it or does our FTL scheme. Alan Steely has written us a one page memo telling us all that the fatigue model coming into use now will not take our bidding concerns into account and will build the roster as it sees best. He says that the factored flying is not being used but being only used on a day to day basis (is this for fire fighting?) He also says that he is in discussion with the GCAA at the moment.
I ask on what legal basis is this extra flying being done at the moment? Most of the guys that I fly with are always approaching 100 hours a month and many are flying more than that, but under what authority? What would happen if there is an accident?
Rumours are being mentioned of an english guy had his UK licence renewal blocked by the CAA due to the extra flying he had done under the 'factored' scheme. Any truth with this rumour?
Does the other long haul pilots operate with a factored Scheme? Cathay? Singapore? Virgin? How do you all log these hours?
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I have been advised by colleagues that flying in excess of 100 block hours is illegal due to the expiry of the FCI and if there was an accident that, as always, the buck stops with the Captain. It is a shame that there has been no guidance from the Fleet Management on this so I guess the term 'Commander's Discretion' has a slightly new meaning now.
On the same lines, are we to assume that they were planning and using the factoring system, and now that they aren't we are so short of crews that FMA is asking for volunteers so that they can cover open flights next week.
Don't think I will be tho' , not because I don't want to, it's just with 95 hours and 9 days off it might be a bit hard to squeeze it in,,,,ooh err Mrs
, bit hard eh, eh,
Don't think I will be tho' , not because I don't want to, it's just with 95 hours and 9 days off it might be a bit hard to squeeze it in,,,,ooh err Mrs
, bit hard eh, eh,
Last edited by 145qrh; 28th Mar 2005 at 13:25.
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Guys,
If you exceed 100hrs in 28 days, you are doing so on your own: "unauthorized exceedance of CAR flying hours limitations". I don't have a copy of CAR's (funny that....in a company that would never want its pilots to actually know what the regs say!), but my best guess is that they would require you to notify the authority, in writing, within a certain time frame, with an explanation. (Just as they do for other exceedances like more than 3 hours discretion, breaking minima etc etc). If I'm wrong on this I welcome anybody's correction??!
Whether or not "the company made me do it" is a valid and acceptable explanation I have no idea. So what do you do? You either say "no" which places you directly in the path of the company's intentions, with the associated repercussions, or do you feel a nasty cough coming on, and thereby keep your head low?
Bottom line......if you break the law do you think EK will come running to your legal defence? ....... Funny, that's what I thought too! Remember, you can always get another job, but you can't without a license.
If you exceed 100hrs in 28 days, you are doing so on your own: "unauthorized exceedance of CAR flying hours limitations". I don't have a copy of CAR's (funny that....in a company that would never want its pilots to actually know what the regs say!), but my best guess is that they would require you to notify the authority, in writing, within a certain time frame, with an explanation. (Just as they do for other exceedances like more than 3 hours discretion, breaking minima etc etc). If I'm wrong on this I welcome anybody's correction??!
Whether or not "the company made me do it" is a valid and acceptable explanation I have no idea. So what do you do? You either say "no" which places you directly in the path of the company's intentions, with the associated repercussions, or do you feel a nasty cough coming on, and thereby keep your head low?
Bottom line......if you break the law do you think EK will come running to your legal defence? ....... Funny, that's what I thought too! Remember, you can always get another job, but you can't without a license.
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Hey Whats your game or Cant think of name..you need to do a little more preperation for your Upgrade.....authority only required to be notified after exceeding 2 hrs Capt discretion. You go over 3 hrs and its more than a tea an biscuits
You could allways take some Vicks next time for ur cough or better still come to work and pass it on to all of us ..
Actually I think you are not doing it on your own as every one is in the same Boat...or should I say plane....or bus
You did ask for a correction
You could allways take some Vicks next time for ur cough or better still come to work and pass it on to all of us ..
Actually I think you are not doing it on your own as every one is in the same Boat...or should I say plane....or bus
You did ask for a correction
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The CAR’s says the following: (1st Jan 1998 edition)
PART IV CIVIL AVIATION OPERATIONS
8.4 FLIGHT AND DUTY LIMITATIONS
8.4.1 Definitions
Duty Period:
ALL The time spent by a crewmember in flying or preparation for flight or executing any functions related to his/her employment such as training, travel, official meetings or administrative duties. Where two or more duty periods are separated by an interval of less than ten hours, the period from the start of the first duty to the end of the last duty shall constitute a single duty period.
Flight Time:
The TOTAL time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to a complete stop at the end of its flight.
8.4.4 The Maximum flight times for a crew member are :
a) 10 Hours in any period of 24 consecutive hours for two-pilot operations
b) 100 Hours in any period of 28 consecutive days
c) 300 Hours in any period of 90 consecutive days
d) 1000 Hours in any calendar year
8.4.5 Unless specifically authorized by the GCAA the maximum duty time for a crew member is 15 hours in any period of 24 consecutive hours.
PART IV CIVIL AVIATION OPERATIONS
8.4 FLIGHT AND DUTY LIMITATIONS
8.4.1 Definitions
Duty Period:
ALL The time spent by a crewmember in flying or preparation for flight or executing any functions related to his/her employment such as training, travel, official meetings or administrative duties. Where two or more duty periods are separated by an interval of less than ten hours, the period from the start of the first duty to the end of the last duty shall constitute a single duty period.
Flight Time:
The TOTAL time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to a complete stop at the end of its flight.
8.4.4 The Maximum flight times for a crew member are :
a) 10 Hours in any period of 24 consecutive hours for two-pilot operations
b) 100 Hours in any period of 28 consecutive days
c) 300 Hours in any period of 90 consecutive days
d) 1000 Hours in any calendar year
8.4.5 Unless specifically authorized by the GCAA the maximum duty time for a crew member is 15 hours in any period of 24 consecutive hours.
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Normally the company and their pilot union will formulate an FTL SCHEME to suit the operations of the company concerned. Then they apply to their CAA to get approval. Once approved it will be legal for that country.
Question:
1) EK pilots do not have a union. So how??
2) The rest of the world log full hours even the most profitable airline in the world, SIA.
3) Yes, everyone has almost the same number...100hours.
However there is nothing mentioned about factorising anywhere. Is it legal? This is a new happening. It is a way to bypass the rules. Something new to make pilots work harder.
Long time ago human and machine are compatible. The human and it's flying machine can put in the same flying time. However now with many new airplanes able to flying non-stop, human are the only barrier. We have to rest. Yes FATIGUE.
That why CAP371 is made. After many research, thinking and studies especially with the introduction of long haul flying, there must be some sort of document to protect the last barrier, last line of defence..the pilots are the last line of defence.
Do we allow this?? If it goes on, the rest of the world will follow.
There will be more bold numbers later. Factor 70%, then 60%, then 50%. When is the end. The onus is on us now.
Report it whatever.
If there is an accident, the insurance company will definately will not pay.
Call an hour an hour. And nothing else.
Question:
1) EK pilots do not have a union. So how??
2) The rest of the world log full hours even the most profitable airline in the world, SIA.
3) Yes, everyone has almost the same number...100hours.
However there is nothing mentioned about factorising anywhere. Is it legal? This is a new happening. It is a way to bypass the rules. Something new to make pilots work harder.
Long time ago human and machine are compatible. The human and it's flying machine can put in the same flying time. However now with many new airplanes able to flying non-stop, human are the only barrier. We have to rest. Yes FATIGUE.
That why CAP371 is made. After many research, thinking and studies especially with the introduction of long haul flying, there must be some sort of document to protect the last barrier, last line of defence..the pilots are the last line of defence.
Do we allow this?? If it goes on, the rest of the world will follow.
There will be more bold numbers later. Factor 70%, then 60%, then 50%. When is the end. The onus is on us now.
Report it whatever.
If there is an accident, the insurance company will definately will not pay.
Call an hour an hour. And nothing else.
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Dear Mr Bug,
You are ofcourse accurate about the 2 hours. Thank you so much for your gentle correction.
On the subject of "coughing" I did NOT say that was a tactic I employ: I put it forward as the only alternative for a person not wanting to find themselves in a confontational position with the company. (Academic now anyway, as the factoring is gone)
Good luck with your upgrade...one small suggestion though...you might want to work on that CRM a little?
What do you think?
CTOAN
You are ofcourse accurate about the 2 hours. Thank you so much for your gentle correction.
On the subject of "coughing" I did NOT say that was a tactic I employ: I put it forward as the only alternative for a person not wanting to find themselves in a confontational position with the company. (Academic now anyway, as the factoring is gone)
Good luck with your upgrade...one small suggestion though...you might want to work on that CRM a little?
What do you think?
CTOAN
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Academic now anyway, as the factoring is gone
Idea. How about the company forgo the expensive day out at the Emirates Towers hotel to tell us all that we got a 5% pay rise (that'll be the increment plus an additional 2%!) and that Emirates beat their own profit records again and just post everything on PPRUNE? We could get rid of the crew portal totally and even do our bidding via PPRUNE. How about it?
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The new and trusted 'Rumour Buster' on the Pot-hole has it that 'we are still talking to the GCAA'. No FCI yet as TCAS hasn't been given it to sign from those who write them.
Talk is the cheapest option, meanwhile I believe that we are still being well and truely factored.
Talk is the cheapest option, meanwhile I believe that we are still being well and truely factored.
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Just curious, but from the outside looking in - it seems pretty dubious to operate with factoring of hours without a valid written approval of some sort.
It would certainly leave the crew holding the bag if there was an incident while operating over the accepted max of 100 hours / 28 days.
Or is the reality that they have stopped factoring completely until the issue is resolved ? I hope this is the case.
It would certainly leave the crew holding the bag if there was an incident while operating over the accepted max of 100 hours / 28 days.
Or is the reality that they have stopped factoring completely until the issue is resolved ? I hope this is the case.
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Arctaurus, on your first two sentences, you are correct. But, this is Emirates! We operated the Brisbane Auckland pattern for several weeks last year with an expired dispensation. If you keep looking in from outside, then you will keep discovering.
