DXB ATC upgrade
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DXB ATC upgrade
Hi all,
We did receive a NOTAM some time ago regarding possible delays into DXB due software or some other upgrade to the ATC system.
So, what exactly was the upgrade about, and has the system improved?
Something else I wonder about. Do you in any way give priority to aircraft diverting into or from DXB?
Are you aware that an aircraft diverting when down to the legal minimum diversion fuel is likely to be in a fuel emergency if it does not get the requested level/routing?
It did happen quite recently, and only after declaring an emergency did they get direct destination.
The big E call may solve your (ATC) problems, but is only the beginning of ours. It will lead to an investigation involving company and the authorities, and may indeed ground the crew involved.
A situation we try to avoid at all cost.
So, is a diversion just another flight for you ATC guys?
We did receive a NOTAM some time ago regarding possible delays into DXB due software or some other upgrade to the ATC system.
So, what exactly was the upgrade about, and has the system improved?
Something else I wonder about. Do you in any way give priority to aircraft diverting into or from DXB?
Are you aware that an aircraft diverting when down to the legal minimum diversion fuel is likely to be in a fuel emergency if it does not get the requested level/routing?
It did happen quite recently, and only after declaring an emergency did they get direct destination.
The big E call may solve your (ATC) problems, but is only the beginning of ours. It will lead to an investigation involving company and the authorities, and may indeed ground the crew involved.
A situation we try to avoid at all cost.
So, is a diversion just another flight for you ATC guys?
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The upgrade was the installation of new FD processing and radar equipment. Someone who works there will have to let you know how it's going.
I'll give you the Area perspective on diversions (as you are probably talking to us anyway). You don't get any priority when diverting. Why should you? If you are saying you will be short of the minimum requirements if you don't get direct tracking etc. the moment you elect to divert, then I'd suggest that you are leaving your divert until too late. Why should you get priority over anyone else? Leaving your divert until you require direct tracking and planned level or else become fuel critical, is setting yourself up for "the big E call". It may not be physically possible to give you your requested level if there are lots holding in tight airspace, such as around DXB, during a diversion. If you put yourself in an emergency situation, then you should be suspended/investigated. If you have followed your company's rules, what's the problem (deep breaths...)?
Quite the opposite. "The big E call" makes our workload go thru the roof, and generates said paperwork/investigations etc at our end, as well. It does mean you will get exactly what you want, but questions will be asked (and rightfully so). For instance, the guy who was holding in the stack below you, and elected to divert 5 minutes before you so as not to put himself in the position of having a fuel emergency, now gets pulled off the approach/vectored out of the way/held again etc etc, just to let you straight thru. Why should someone who doesn't put themself in an "emergency situation" be penalised?
It's the same with arriving on frequency "fuel critical". Why should everyone else (who has carried enough fuel) be penalised, unless you declare an emergency? I understand the reluctance to declare emergencies, but unless you do declare, you won't get anything special.
Rightly so. Wouldn't you want your company investigated if their fuel or divert policy was creating undue risk?
In answer to your question
Yes and no. It creates a lot of work, but in terms of priority, yes.
I'll give you the Area perspective on diversions (as you are probably talking to us anyway). You don't get any priority when diverting. Why should you? If you are saying you will be short of the minimum requirements if you don't get direct tracking etc. the moment you elect to divert, then I'd suggest that you are leaving your divert until too late. Why should you get priority over anyone else? Leaving your divert until you require direct tracking and planned level or else become fuel critical, is setting yourself up for "the big E call". It may not be physically possible to give you your requested level if there are lots holding in tight airspace, such as around DXB, during a diversion. If you put yourself in an emergency situation, then you should be suspended/investigated. If you have followed your company's rules, what's the problem (deep breaths...)?
The big E call may solve your (ATC) problems
It's the same with arriving on frequency "fuel critical". Why should everyone else (who has carried enough fuel) be penalised, unless you declare an emergency? I understand the reluctance to declare emergencies, but unless you do declare, you won't get anything special.
It will lead to an investigation involving company and the authorities,
In answer to your question
So, is a diversion just another flight for you ATC guys?
Last edited by ferris; 7th Jan 2005 at 23:09.
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Radar and flight data processor upgrades
Oman Air,
Ferris is right, it was a radar software upgrade that supposedly includes short term conflict alerts (STCA) and Terrain Warning. The Flight Data Processor is just another computer program that deals with flightplans and its distribution etc.
As far as your diverting problem goes, agree with Ferris, request priority sooner than later, especially when diverting from another field. Had the nasty experience in dubai a few years ago of a diversion from an African country that could not get into OEDM and elected to divert to OMDB. We were on rwy 30 at the time at night during busy arrivals session when the capt inbound via DESDI asked if he could get rwy 12. The answer was a definite no as it would have meant changing runways during busy arrival and departures scenario and a possible tailwind etc. The capt was given the trackmiles from TD about every 2-3 min and after asking him several times what the fuel status was, he finally declared a mayday at about 20 nm west of DB requesting straight in rwy 12. Apart from creating total chaos from ATC point of view, delaying many other departures and arrivals, the aircraft ended up very high on the approach for rwy 12. I think it was something like Fl150 at 15 nm from TD for 12. I think he was keeping as much height at the time to get in on rwy 30 and when finally being fuel critical, he declared a mayday but was now way too high on profile for rwy12. It required some quick thinking on his and our part as we knew that a go-around would have been impossible due to his fuel status. We were not sure whether to S-bend him through final a few times or just spinning him on a 10 nm final. He finally landed safely but was still very high and unstable right to TD. I do not know for a fact, but believe that they had a flame out one one engine taxiing to the stand on this B757. Not to judge, but at the time I felt that his actions displayed extremly poor airmanship and putting his aircraft and px in severe danger. Had he told us earlier about the urgency of the problem, we would gladly have changed the rwy for him and would have vectored the aircraft for a proper profile. Just changing the ILS at the last minute for rwy 12 and them having very little time to brief and set-up for the approach is reason enough to ask early so that we are all prepared for the worst case scenario and can give you a better service in the end. I promise you that the paperwork is not a factor at this stage(ATC/GCAA view) and I cannot comment on the airline procedures, but I am sure where there is a safety culture in the airline, this would be the right think to do.
We work with OMAN AIR crews daily and have always found them to be a very helpful and professional bunch of pilots. I would like to think that you would see controllers in the same light and if there is ever another opportunity where we can assist, don't hesitate to ask! We do it with a smile! We have a lot of respect for both the ATR and B737 crews and thier operating practices, so go ahead and let us know where we can assist.
BUBIN to LOVOL and No Speed Restrictions!!!!!!!!
Cheers
fart
Ferris is right, it was a radar software upgrade that supposedly includes short term conflict alerts (STCA) and Terrain Warning. The Flight Data Processor is just another computer program that deals with flightplans and its distribution etc.
As far as your diverting problem goes, agree with Ferris, request priority sooner than later, especially when diverting from another field. Had the nasty experience in dubai a few years ago of a diversion from an African country that could not get into OEDM and elected to divert to OMDB. We were on rwy 30 at the time at night during busy arrivals session when the capt inbound via DESDI asked if he could get rwy 12. The answer was a definite no as it would have meant changing runways during busy arrival and departures scenario and a possible tailwind etc. The capt was given the trackmiles from TD about every 2-3 min and after asking him several times what the fuel status was, he finally declared a mayday at about 20 nm west of DB requesting straight in rwy 12. Apart from creating total chaos from ATC point of view, delaying many other departures and arrivals, the aircraft ended up very high on the approach for rwy 12. I think it was something like Fl150 at 15 nm from TD for 12. I think he was keeping as much height at the time to get in on rwy 30 and when finally being fuel critical, he declared a mayday but was now way too high on profile for rwy12. It required some quick thinking on his and our part as we knew that a go-around would have been impossible due to his fuel status. We were not sure whether to S-bend him through final a few times or just spinning him on a 10 nm final. He finally landed safely but was still very high and unstable right to TD. I do not know for a fact, but believe that they had a flame out one one engine taxiing to the stand on this B757. Not to judge, but at the time I felt that his actions displayed extremly poor airmanship and putting his aircraft and px in severe danger. Had he told us earlier about the urgency of the problem, we would gladly have changed the rwy for him and would have vectored the aircraft for a proper profile. Just changing the ILS at the last minute for rwy 12 and them having very little time to brief and set-up for the approach is reason enough to ask early so that we are all prepared for the worst case scenario and can give you a better service in the end. I promise you that the paperwork is not a factor at this stage(ATC/GCAA view) and I cannot comment on the airline procedures, but I am sure where there is a safety culture in the airline, this would be the right think to do.
We work with OMAN AIR crews daily and have always found them to be a very helpful and professional bunch of pilots. I would like to think that you would see controllers in the same light and if there is ever another opportunity where we can assist, don't hesitate to ask! We do it with a smile! We have a lot of respect for both the ATR and B737 crews and thier operating practices, so go ahead and let us know where we can assist.
BUBIN to LOVOL and No Speed Restrictions!!!!!!!!
Cheers
fart
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ferris,
The rules are fairly universal, and not something that applies to our company alone. While in an ideal world we all would like to fly around with 30 or 60 mins extra fuel all the time, this is not always desirable or indeed possible in the real world due to performance limitations, structural limitations, etc. I'm leaving economy out of the equation, but fuel cost...
For whatever reasons, we sometimes find ourselves approaching an airport with close to minimum fuel. Maybe enough for 1 or 2 turns in the hold. A diversion means I've got fuel from dest. airport to div. airport + 30 mins hold at div. airport. If I divert, I do not expect vectors way off my diversion plan route, or to be kept 8-10000 ft below my requested FL. That will put me in a fuel emergency right away. As per the book, landing with less than final reserve fuel (30 mins hold) WILL generate a Mayday call.
Throw the UAE met offices complete inability to forecast anything but CAVOK into the mix...if you have been working the last week or so you will know what I mean.
By the end of the day I may have planned and conducted my flight by the book, but the system may slap me in the face by suspending me. What the problem is? I'm not in the most flexible corner of the world, that’s what the problem is.
Ok, I did not start this tread to criticize, only to gain some knowledge which I will base my future planning on.
From your side of the table, IMHO you should view any diverting flight as fuel critical right from the beginning.
Thanks for the kind words, fart.
Horrible story, and I dare say the vast majority of us would have screamed MAYDAY long before getting ourselves into a situation like that.
I've got no axe to grind with UAE or DXB controllers, the meteorologists on the other hand...
DCT LOVOL, high speed, thank you!
The rules are fairly universal, and not something that applies to our company alone. While in an ideal world we all would like to fly around with 30 or 60 mins extra fuel all the time, this is not always desirable or indeed possible in the real world due to performance limitations, structural limitations, etc. I'm leaving economy out of the equation, but fuel cost...
For whatever reasons, we sometimes find ourselves approaching an airport with close to minimum fuel. Maybe enough for 1 or 2 turns in the hold. A diversion means I've got fuel from dest. airport to div. airport + 30 mins hold at div. airport. If I divert, I do not expect vectors way off my diversion plan route, or to be kept 8-10000 ft below my requested FL. That will put me in a fuel emergency right away. As per the book, landing with less than final reserve fuel (30 mins hold) WILL generate a Mayday call.
Throw the UAE met offices complete inability to forecast anything but CAVOK into the mix...if you have been working the last week or so you will know what I mean.
By the end of the day I may have planned and conducted my flight by the book, but the system may slap me in the face by suspending me. What the problem is? I'm not in the most flexible corner of the world, that’s what the problem is.
Ok, I did not start this tread to criticize, only to gain some knowledge which I will base my future planning on.
From your side of the table, IMHO you should view any diverting flight as fuel critical right from the beginning.
Thanks for the kind words, fart.
Horrible story, and I dare say the vast majority of us would have screamed MAYDAY long before getting ourselves into a situation like that.
I've got no axe to grind with UAE or DXB controllers, the meteorologists on the other hand...
DCT LOVOL, high speed, thank you!
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Look, OmanAir, I sympathise, I know exactly what you are talking about. We work in the same environment, remember (technically, we are NEVER allowed to track an aircraft direct ANYWHERE, and if we do, any unpleasantness falls squarely on us). However, the fuel 'dilemma' is an ongoing issue worldwide that is slowly eroding safety margins. There have been several long-running threads about LHR and fuel on the main board. There have even been suggestions that some airlines routinely "request priority" to jump the queue without any ensuing paperwork.
Maybe. But at the moment we don't, for the reasons given. There would be ramifications, which would have to be looked at.
This bit worries me. As I said, it may not be possible to give you what you want. eg. diverting a/c into Al Ain held, the other day (the fog day), because several had elected to divert there simultaneously. IMHO your margins are too fine if not getting desired level after you divert will cause a mayday.
ps. Agree, Oman Air are great to work with.
Oh, and Ironbutt, no need to worry about my 'attitude'- I would NEVER put my family on one of your planes. If my family were aboard an A/C, I trust that the PIC had enough of a clue to divert before economics overode safety.
Typical manager's view Ironbutt- write restrictive edicts fully expecting us to break them, day in, day out in order to get the job done, then hang us out to dry if anything ever goes wrong, saying "you knew the rules".
From your side of the table, IMHO you should view any diverting flight as fuel critical right from the beginning
If I divert, I do not expect vectors way off my diversion plan route, or to be kept 8-10000 ft below my requested FL
ps. Agree, Oman Air are great to work with.
Oh, and Ironbutt, no need to worry about my 'attitude'- I would NEVER put my family on one of your planes. If my family were aboard an A/C, I trust that the PIC had enough of a clue to divert before economics overode safety.
Typical manager's view Ironbutt- write restrictive edicts fully expecting us to break them, day in, day out in order to get the job done, then hang us out to dry if anything ever goes wrong, saying "you knew the rules".
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Omanair said
"The big E call may solve your (ATC) problems, but is only the beginning of ours. It will lead to an investigation involving company and the authorities, and may indeed ground the crew involved.
A situation we try to avoid at all cost."
NEVER be afraid to declare an emergency, for fuel or anything else because of the paperwork or an investigation. If that is in the back of your mind you have no business being up there in the first place. THAT's the aircraft I don't want my family on! Declare and sort it out on the ground!
"The big E call may solve your (ATC) problems, but is only the beginning of ours. It will lead to an investigation involving company and the authorities, and may indeed ground the crew involved.
A situation we try to avoid at all cost."
NEVER be afraid to declare an emergency, for fuel or anything else because of the paperwork or an investigation. If that is in the back of your mind you have no business being up there in the first place. THAT's the aircraft I don't want my family on! Declare and sort it out on the ground!
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Plus of course if the 'fuel emergency' became standard practice there a re many, many operators who would reduce fuel to an absolute minimum, so we'd all be back in the same boat, only with another 10% less fuel.........
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Well, I understand my post(s) may give grounds for misunderstanding but;
A: I'm not looking for sympathy, just for information. And the opportunity to share some info as well. ferris, as I said, extra fuel is not always an option. I don't think the long haul, and not to mention the ultra long haul flights, arrive with 30 mins of extra fuel.
Speaking for myself, I don't see the need to carry a lot of extra fuel into DXB on a CAVOK day. When the CAVOK forecast changes to actual FOG but the airport remains above CAT 1 I will not make a 180 and head back to MCT right away. Not before doing a MISAP, and by then I may be pretty close to diversion fuel. The decision to divert may not be as clear as you seem to think.
Directs may be nice, but all I need is flight plan route and a level not far off my requested level.
B: I'm trying at all cost to avoid setting myself up for a situation that mandates a Mayday call. I have NO problems making the call if it is necessary.
C: I'm not a minimum fuel person and I will (if possible) carry whatever extra fuel I need to cater for WX, traffic, etc, but I cannot assume fog or CB's every time the forecast says CAVOK.
I've had FOG or severe thunderstorms in MCT, AUH and DXB, all with forecasts showing CAVOK. It doesn't make the planning any easier.
A: I'm not looking for sympathy, just for information. And the opportunity to share some info as well. ferris, as I said, extra fuel is not always an option. I don't think the long haul, and not to mention the ultra long haul flights, arrive with 30 mins of extra fuel.
Speaking for myself, I don't see the need to carry a lot of extra fuel into DXB on a CAVOK day. When the CAVOK forecast changes to actual FOG but the airport remains above CAT 1 I will not make a 180 and head back to MCT right away. Not before doing a MISAP, and by then I may be pretty close to diversion fuel. The decision to divert may not be as clear as you seem to think.
Directs may be nice, but all I need is flight plan route and a level not far off my requested level.
B: I'm trying at all cost to avoid setting myself up for a situation that mandates a Mayday call. I have NO problems making the call if it is necessary.
C: I'm not a minimum fuel person and I will (if possible) carry whatever extra fuel I need to cater for WX, traffic, etc, but I cannot assume fog or CB's every time the forecast says CAVOK.
I've had FOG or severe thunderstorms in MCT, AUH and DXB, all with forecasts showing CAVOK. It doesn't make the planning any easier.
