Newsflash! Emirates is not all bad!
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cool: Good to here there are other happy guys.
Ernest & shake.
Working for EK is like anything else in life.
Marriage.
Your car.
Your preference for girls, goats or boys.
The food you eat.
Your profession.
Religion.
YOU CHOOSE. If you no like - you change it.
If you can’t change it now, prepare yourself to make the change that will make you happy.
Buy a new car.
Get a new wife or become single.
Leave EK or start looking at least.
Ernest that’s why I’m on Pprune, keeping myself informed on trends in my occupation and browse for potentially better jobs.
After all, Pprune is the only communication tool we have @ EK, and more effective than any FCN.
I urge you to read a little book: “WHO STOLE MY CHEESE” (or something like that)
Well got to get that fire started.
Dubbel nul
Ernest & shake.
Working for EK is like anything else in life.
Marriage.
Your car.
Your preference for girls, goats or boys.
The food you eat.
Your profession.
Religion.
YOU CHOOSE. If you no like - you change it.
If you can’t change it now, prepare yourself to make the change that will make you happy.
Buy a new car.
Get a new wife or become single.
Leave EK or start looking at least.
Ernest that’s why I’m on Pprune, keeping myself informed on trends in my occupation and browse for potentially better jobs.
After all, Pprune is the only communication tool we have @ EK, and more effective than any FCN.
I urge you to read a little book: “WHO STOLE MY CHEESE” (or something like that)
Well got to get that fire started.
Dubbel nul
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I've sat back and read with interest over the last few days
I was accused of having the old "rose tinted" a couple of years back
My only gripes with EK are the DEC's (not required) and the fact that inflation is hugely overhauling pay!! But to hear people like BACKWATER talk about not being in control.... PLEASE
No-one was pulling my strings today when I drove around town, did some shopping, went home, had a barbie etc. YOU are the paranoid deluded one old son
I could put it into colloquial english for you moaners - if you really don't like it - FFO KCUF.
By the way 411a, coming here isn't always about $$$$$$.
I was accused of having the old "rose tinted" a couple of years back
My only gripes with EK are the DEC's (not required) and the fact that inflation is hugely overhauling pay!! But to hear people like BACKWATER talk about not being in control.... PLEASE No-one was pulling my strings today when I drove around town, did some shopping, went home, had a barbie etc. YOU are the paranoid deluded one old son I could put it into colloquial english for you moaners - if you really don't like it - FFO KCUF.
By the way 411a, coming here isn't always about $$$$$$.
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Well as you may know me and the band are off to greener pastures. EK is not for me right now, but in fairness remains a very good employer. I agree with previous posts that terms and conditions have been shamelessly erroded but this job still has a lot to offer. The lifestyle in Dubai is generally OK and the weather for 6-7 months of the year is quite nice. Cars are cheap and so is gas. There is lots to do and see here but beware that you will have to be very strict with your budget if you wish to enjoy many of the attractions. The road to command is a little hazy right now but let's be honest even with DECs the time to LHS for a major widebody flag carrier is still pretty remarkable.
EK is an exciting place to work, seldom a week goes by without some even more sensational announcement on expansion/routes /purchases.
Accomodation as generally OK with all utilities paid( where else do you get that?) also the limo to work is a nice little bonus.
On the down side the bottom line in terms of disposable income at the end of the day is way way below market rate. Our company is running in pusuit of a target of XX fils per passenger seat miles(may be company confidential so I will withold the figure). This has placed enormous pressure on middle management to come up with the goods especially given the backdrop of unprecedented expansion.
People built this company and there was a time when EK recognised that. We have now lost the personal touch in pursuit of profit and the effect of this is that we have lost sight of what made us a success in the first place. The product is now mediocre in all respects and we have already had a very clear warning in JNB of the dangers of a fiscal dominated business plan.
I am leaving because for me and the band the scales don't balance anymore and I don't like the way we do business now. For many in different circumstances this job can be very very rewarding and I would give it my recomendation as long as the points discussed here and previously are factored in to any decision to come to EK. We are all different and have different goals and values.
Right better put my head down....INCOMMING!!!
EK is an exciting place to work, seldom a week goes by without some even more sensational announcement on expansion/routes /purchases.
Accomodation as generally OK with all utilities paid( where else do you get that?) also the limo to work is a nice little bonus.
On the down side the bottom line in terms of disposable income at the end of the day is way way below market rate. Our company is running in pusuit of a target of XX fils per passenger seat miles(may be company confidential so I will withold the figure). This has placed enormous pressure on middle management to come up with the goods especially given the backdrop of unprecedented expansion.
People built this company and there was a time when EK recognised that. We have now lost the personal touch in pursuit of profit and the effect of this is that we have lost sight of what made us a success in the first place. The product is now mediocre in all respects and we have already had a very clear warning in JNB of the dangers of a fiscal dominated business plan.
I am leaving because for me and the band the scales don't balance anymore and I don't like the way we do business now. For many in different circumstances this job can be very very rewarding and I would give it my recomendation as long as the points discussed here and previously are factored in to any decision to come to EK. We are all different and have different goals and values.
Right better put my head down....INCOMMING!!!
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WK conceeds that pay has fallen well behind inflation and all he can add is that we should all just FO if we do not like it...very constructive. OO thanks for the advice, I didn't realise it was so simple to change...
So just fall back, don't complain and let it rot. If only you guys would FFO KCUF perhaps we could get some real change. There are pilots in airlines which have fought to maintain their T&Cs, who did not standby and watch as the job decended into mediocraty, who refuse to FO to make it easier on those without the backbone to do something about it.
Good luck Mick.
So just fall back, don't complain and let it rot. If only you guys would FFO KCUF perhaps we could get some real change. There are pilots in airlines which have fought to maintain their T&Cs, who did not standby and watch as the job decended into mediocraty, who refuse to FO to make it easier on those without the backbone to do something about it.
Good luck Mick.
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"There are pilots in airlines which have fought to maintain their T&Cs, who did not standby and watch as the job decended into mediocraty"...SHAKE
I guaranty that these pilots had representation, backing, and legal recourse, should they be victimised for "fighting". I would be interested to hear how you propose to "do something about it" here at EK.
V
I guaranty that these pilots had representation, backing, and legal recourse, should they be victimised for "fighting". I would be interested to hear how you propose to "do something about it" here at EK.
V
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You think the flight deck department has issues.. LOL..
hahahahha.. Try working as cabin crew.. Have to say, U guys are gr8.... Expecially the immaculate aussie flight deck.. What can I say guys.. You rule.!!!.. Saying, that.. Most of u do aswell.
.
Cheers
Jonboy
"gimme gimme watar"
hahahahha.. Try working as cabin crew.. Have to say, U guys are gr8.... Expecially the immaculate aussie flight deck.. What can I say guys.. You rule.!!!.. Saying, that.. Most of u do aswell.
.Cheers
Jonboy
"gimme gimme watar"
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The above discussion is interesting because it all comes down to perspective! Those that think EK is great think that all the whiners are in the minority. Those that think EK sucks think that the guys saying it is great must be from management. One thing is for certain though; on this site you get a minority view. There are 1200 pilots and less than 5% post. So how do you find out the truth?
Well, as I have said it all come down to perspective. If you are a BA 747-400 Captain then EK is unlikely to be for you. If however you don't have a job or come from a lesser tier outfit then it might just be paradise.
I will get to the facts later but now I will tell you my perspective. I am happy in Dubai but not convinced EK is headed in the right direction. I came here because I couldn't stand 7 months of sh*tty Northern European weather. The sun makes me smile, grey cloud p*sses me off! This means that I don't mind it when it is too hot in the summer. If I came from Florida or South Africa I am certain the weather here would be a negative factor rather than a positive one.
One of the guys quotes that he has 2 cars and that is a great thing. I have 2 cars and one is brand new but only because my family were taken out on a roundabout and the car was written off. We have 2 cars because there is no viable alternative from public transport which is quite unusual in a big city.
We all know about the weather, we know about the back of the clock flying and the rostering. The old bidding system was great, the new system is still working through teething problems. Hopefully next month we will know for sure whether or not more guys are on reserve.
So what are the facts:
7 months of nice weather, 5 months of crap!
Driving dangerous! UAE nationals 4 times death rate of rest of world, Ex-pats 1.5 times.
Crime does occur. Burglary does happen, drugs do exist and the police will not take your side in an argument against a local with waster. There are a lot of kids with a lot of money and different ethics from your average Western family.
Schools are great but hard to get into. The academics are good but if your child is gifted or needs extra help there is little support available. It is excellent at primary level but less so at secondary level. Everyone talks about the outdoor lifestyle but there is little decent competitive sport or high level arts training because there are too few schools and pupils. The schools tend to be quite elitist in offering opportunities to a small clique of kids.
Most kids are coached at sport rather than playing it with their buddies. EK pay about 90% for the Brit schools, less for the others. They are building new schools so hopefully places will become available. A lot of parents begin to realise the shortcomings when their kids become teenagers. Often the choice is to split the family by sending them home with the dad commuting. Non airline families also do this; normally when the kids are around about 12 or 13.
Terms and conditions do change regularly. In the last 4 years the following things have happened:
Time to command was 4500hrs now 6000.
Accelerated commands were introduced.
DECs were introduced but guys meeting the requirements within the company were excluded.
The medical cover has been downgraded.
The requirements to be elegible for profit share have changed for the worse.
The credit rules have recently changed. Sims, Office days and standbys do not contribute to overtime.
Training T&Cs went down the tubes but have recently got better for the junior guys. The more senior guys will lose.
Recruiters and CRM guys T&Cs improved but have now taken a serious dive. This means they could do 2 weeks recruiting and then a months flying in the other 2 weeks and lose cash to a guy that does 10 days work. 1 day in the office pays the same as 1 hrs overtime but carries no credit.
Inflation does happen. I am not going to take a view on what the right level of pay is but just present the facts. In 1992 an F/O was paid 15,000 AED/month, now it is 17,000. In that time inflation has run at 63%. So in real terms spending power has been reduced by nearly 50%.
The exchange rate currently sucks. In Sterling, my pay has reduced from £4700/mth 3 years ago to £3700 now. I am taking the long term view and keeping my money offshore. I hope the exchange rate will improve. A new joining F/O today would earn less than £29k/year and take home about £2300/month with the current UK exchange rate. That might be tough to live on if time to command does slip to 5 years+
The provident fund equities has under performed the stock market significantly over the last few years and you will need to save more money to retire.
You can now buy a house in Dubai but buy carefully and either for the short or long term. My opinion only: the market is a bubble, most of the properties are being bought by offshore investors to let. Sadly there are not enough ex-pats to rent all the properties. There are about 300,000 ex-pats and nearly 30,0000 properties coming onto the market. 10% is too high a driver so in the short term guys will make money, then it will crash but if you want to live in a nice house for the long term it should be ok. Most of the folks that say it isn't a bubble can't remember Dotcoms. Last week an estate agent lady that was a housewife 3 months ago told me that, based on her vast experience, I couldn't lose.
You do not have much protection from the company, from the locals, from the house builders, the crap drivers etc. You still need a local partner in most industries if you want to set up in business.
So there, apart from my opinion on property, are the facts. At the moment it isn't bad enough for me to walk. Back to perspective, if I could get a similarly paid, secure job in California I'd be gone; but I can't.
When I applied there was never anything negative written about EK. As time moves on I read more and more negative stuff. The T&Cs have been eroded and the exchange rate (not EK's fault) sucks but like most people it is too much hassle for me to move at the moment. Were I sitting in the UK at the moment looking at the £29k salary and an ever increasing time to command with DECs in the mix I am not sure I would join; even for the sun. But....its all about perspective!
Cerberus
Well, as I have said it all come down to perspective. If you are a BA 747-400 Captain then EK is unlikely to be for you. If however you don't have a job or come from a lesser tier outfit then it might just be paradise.
I will get to the facts later but now I will tell you my perspective. I am happy in Dubai but not convinced EK is headed in the right direction. I came here because I couldn't stand 7 months of sh*tty Northern European weather. The sun makes me smile, grey cloud p*sses me off! This means that I don't mind it when it is too hot in the summer. If I came from Florida or South Africa I am certain the weather here would be a negative factor rather than a positive one.
One of the guys quotes that he has 2 cars and that is a great thing. I have 2 cars and one is brand new but only because my family were taken out on a roundabout and the car was written off. We have 2 cars because there is no viable alternative from public transport which is quite unusual in a big city.
We all know about the weather, we know about the back of the clock flying and the rostering. The old bidding system was great, the new system is still working through teething problems. Hopefully next month we will know for sure whether or not more guys are on reserve.
So what are the facts:
7 months of nice weather, 5 months of crap!
Driving dangerous! UAE nationals 4 times death rate of rest of world, Ex-pats 1.5 times.
Crime does occur. Burglary does happen, drugs do exist and the police will not take your side in an argument against a local with waster. There are a lot of kids with a lot of money and different ethics from your average Western family.
Schools are great but hard to get into. The academics are good but if your child is gifted or needs extra help there is little support available. It is excellent at primary level but less so at secondary level. Everyone talks about the outdoor lifestyle but there is little decent competitive sport or high level arts training because there are too few schools and pupils. The schools tend to be quite elitist in offering opportunities to a small clique of kids.
Most kids are coached at sport rather than playing it with their buddies. EK pay about 90% for the Brit schools, less for the others. They are building new schools so hopefully places will become available. A lot of parents begin to realise the shortcomings when their kids become teenagers. Often the choice is to split the family by sending them home with the dad commuting. Non airline families also do this; normally when the kids are around about 12 or 13.
Terms and conditions do change regularly. In the last 4 years the following things have happened:
Time to command was 4500hrs now 6000.
Accelerated commands were introduced.
DECs were introduced but guys meeting the requirements within the company were excluded.
The medical cover has been downgraded.
The requirements to be elegible for profit share have changed for the worse.
The credit rules have recently changed. Sims, Office days and standbys do not contribute to overtime.
Training T&Cs went down the tubes but have recently got better for the junior guys. The more senior guys will lose.
Recruiters and CRM guys T&Cs improved but have now taken a serious dive. This means they could do 2 weeks recruiting and then a months flying in the other 2 weeks and lose cash to a guy that does 10 days work. 1 day in the office pays the same as 1 hrs overtime but carries no credit.
Inflation does happen. I am not going to take a view on what the right level of pay is but just present the facts. In 1992 an F/O was paid 15,000 AED/month, now it is 17,000. In that time inflation has run at 63%. So in real terms spending power has been reduced by nearly 50%.
The exchange rate currently sucks. In Sterling, my pay has reduced from £4700/mth 3 years ago to £3700 now. I am taking the long term view and keeping my money offshore. I hope the exchange rate will improve. A new joining F/O today would earn less than £29k/year and take home about £2300/month with the current UK exchange rate. That might be tough to live on if time to command does slip to 5 years+
The provident fund equities has under performed the stock market significantly over the last few years and you will need to save more money to retire.
You can now buy a house in Dubai but buy carefully and either for the short or long term. My opinion only: the market is a bubble, most of the properties are being bought by offshore investors to let. Sadly there are not enough ex-pats to rent all the properties. There are about 300,000 ex-pats and nearly 30,0000 properties coming onto the market. 10% is too high a driver so in the short term guys will make money, then it will crash but if you want to live in a nice house for the long term it should be ok. Most of the folks that say it isn't a bubble can't remember Dotcoms. Last week an estate agent lady that was a housewife 3 months ago told me that, based on her vast experience, I couldn't lose.
You do not have much protection from the company, from the locals, from the house builders, the crap drivers etc. You still need a local partner in most industries if you want to set up in business.
So there, apart from my opinion on property, are the facts. At the moment it isn't bad enough for me to walk. Back to perspective, if I could get a similarly paid, secure job in California I'd be gone; but I can't.
When I applied there was never anything negative written about EK. As time moves on I read more and more negative stuff. The T&Cs have been eroded and the exchange rate (not EK's fault) sucks but like most people it is too much hassle for me to move at the moment. Were I sitting in the UK at the moment looking at the £29k salary and an ever increasing time to command with DECs in the mix I am not sure I would join; even for the sun. But....its all about perspective!
Cerberus
Last edited by Cerberus; 2nd Dec 2004 at 10:47.
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Perspective is a very important fact in a persons view of an airline both from the inside, or from the outside.
For those of you trying to get the message out that Emirates is not what it seems, you only have to look at who is applying and who is coming out here. It is either people from an airline just about to go bankrupt, or from people who are unemployed, or pilots from low cost carriers. Needless to say these people are happy to have a job, or a job with better t&cs. I would be doing just the same if I was in their shoes. Do not waste your time in trying to convince the world of pilots that Emirates is worth it, or is not worth it. Pilots from realy good companies who are in their mid careers would never leave their good jobs to come out here and fly the shiny jets. They are doing just that at home with better conditions, and with representation.
It is realy funny to watch people get worked up either way, since everyone's life is different. What clicks for me does not click for others, and so on.
For those of you who like Dubai great, for those of you who do not like Dubai what can I say. For those of you who like Emirates and for those of you who do not like Emirates you should not see each other as people in different groups, but rather as one unit trying to improve things. I cannot see any cap on the possibility of improvement of things even if they are great. You only get in life what you think you deserve. If you think you are not worth any more than management wants to give you, then you will accept any lowering in your T&Cs. There are always ways to get what is fair."
My word of advise based on facts is that Emirates just like anyother airline around the world is just a job. It has good points and it has bad points. The good and the bad depend on what one is looking for. If it is a quick command, with not so much flying, and great money then Emirates is not the place to come anymore.
If it is stability and big airplanes you are looking for, then for the forseable future this is the place to come.
I do not know if t&cs will change again in the near future, and if they do, historicaly it is for the worst, (unless a company has unions)
but I do know that two of my friends have been invited for an interview in the new year for DEC positions on the 777 and or 330. What does this mean?
Emirates management is making decisions based on their view of best solutions for the company. They have to do this as their decisions are based on measurable numbers, and not the abstract pilot morale.....
I will be having a go-away party in the spring so I will be inviting all of you to come for a goodby drink
For those of you trying to get the message out that Emirates is not what it seems, you only have to look at who is applying and who is coming out here. It is either people from an airline just about to go bankrupt, or from people who are unemployed, or pilots from low cost carriers. Needless to say these people are happy to have a job, or a job with better t&cs. I would be doing just the same if I was in their shoes. Do not waste your time in trying to convince the world of pilots that Emirates is worth it, or is not worth it. Pilots from realy good companies who are in their mid careers would never leave their good jobs to come out here and fly the shiny jets. They are doing just that at home with better conditions, and with representation.
It is realy funny to watch people get worked up either way, since everyone's life is different. What clicks for me does not click for others, and so on.
For those of you who like Dubai great, for those of you who do not like Dubai what can I say. For those of you who like Emirates and for those of you who do not like Emirates you should not see each other as people in different groups, but rather as one unit trying to improve things. I cannot see any cap on the possibility of improvement of things even if they are great. You only get in life what you think you deserve. If you think you are not worth any more than management wants to give you, then you will accept any lowering in your T&Cs. There are always ways to get what is fair."
My word of advise based on facts is that Emirates just like anyother airline around the world is just a job. It has good points and it has bad points. The good and the bad depend on what one is looking for. If it is a quick command, with not so much flying, and great money then Emirates is not the place to come anymore.
If it is stability and big airplanes you are looking for, then for the forseable future this is the place to come.
I do not know if t&cs will change again in the near future, and if they do, historicaly it is for the worst, (unless a company has unions)
but I do know that two of my friends have been invited for an interview in the new year for DEC positions on the 777 and or 330. What does this mean?
Emirates management is making decisions based on their view of best solutions for the company. They have to do this as their decisions are based on measurable numbers, and not the abstract pilot morale.....
I will be having a go-away party in the spring so I will be inviting all of you to come for a goodby drink
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Ok Shake - you say I should FO 'cos I have no backbone!!!!!!
So what the hell have YOU been doing about it??? You show me your backbone and tell us what you've done about it! However, I think you're one of the whinging w@nkers who talks the talk but can't walk the walk. Before you tell me to FO have the balls to do something constructive YOURSELF
I'm often accused of having no originality - wrong. I just don't beat around the bush. Shake - just get on an aeroplane out of Dubai and make all of our lives more enjoyable, unless you can put your ballbag where your mouth is of course
So what the hell have YOU been doing about it??? You show me your backbone and tell us what you've done about it! However, I think you're one of the whinging w@nkers who talks the talk but can't walk the walk. Before you tell me to FO have the balls to do something constructive YOURSELF
I'm often accused of having no originality - wrong. I just don't beat around the bush. Shake - just get on an aeroplane out of Dubai and make all of our lives more enjoyable, unless you can put your ballbag where your mouth is of course
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Touched a nerve WK? You serve it, expect a return.
You could start by retrieving your head from wherever or whomever it is buried and perhaps you will see what is really happening instead of the ideal world you have created for yourself and for others to consume here on PP.
You could start by retrieving your head from wherever or whomever it is buried and perhaps you will see what is really happening instead of the ideal world you have created for yourself and for others to consume here on PP.
Last edited by Shake; 3rd Dec 2004 at 05:31.
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Good post Ceberous.
A couple of Qs about property 'investment' in Dubai. Is it true that if you decide to sell you have to sell it back to (Emaar, Nakheel etc.) at a price set by them? And, also, presumably as demand will never outstrip supply (they'll just build another Palm) this will affect the growth in value of your investment?
A couple of Qs about property 'investment' in Dubai. Is it true that if you decide to sell you have to sell it back to (Emaar, Nakheel etc.) at a price set by them? And, also, presumably as demand will never outstrip supply (they'll just build another Palm) this will affect the growth in value of your investment?
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Talking about perspective, those who thought that nothing will change in EK are out of touch with reality. A growing company that has gone from 200+ pilots to almost 1200 in 7 years. They told me there use to be 3 days layovers in HKG, Malta and even SIN a few years back. That happened in many airlines when they were at an early stage. But, those days are over.
To those who whinge on this site, a lot of us wud like to hear suggestions. For those wannababes, read all these posts carefully and when you get the offer-pack, it will do you lots of good to sit down and do some maths. Bcoz if you don't, then we will hear you on pprune sooner or later.
For the time being, like a number of us here, I'm staying put and will keep searching for something better and within reach.
To those who whinge on this site, a lot of us wud like to hear suggestions. For those wannababes, read all these posts carefully and when you get the offer-pack, it will do you lots of good to sit down and do some maths. Bcoz if you don't, then we will hear you on pprune sooner or later.
For the time being, like a number of us here, I'm staying put and will keep searching for something better and within reach.
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Hi all,
I am reading all these posts with great interest. It seems like there are so many EK pilots who are not happy with their situation in DXB. I think it should be time to leave for those guys. There are many, MANY, pilots around the globe who would like to be in your shoes. So, leave if you're not happy and give the position for those who would like to join EK.
If you look the situation anywhere around the world, all airlines are requiring more and more from their employees, just to maintain position in the battle. Markets are difficult and some loose and the other might win. Always two sides in every coin. The numerous days off, less work and more money are over, if you can't accept that, you loose the game.
I have been in contact to some pilots at EK, and I have got so many different answers HOW IT IS THERE?
I am currently invited for the assesment in this month, and honestly it's difficult to see where EK stands in today. I am really considering twice before my decision, if I pass the interview. It's not the money always the people looking for. I am currently on the left seat on B757, and looking for a stable company to work with. What do you think about this?
I am reading all these posts with great interest. It seems like there are so many EK pilots who are not happy with their situation in DXB. I think it should be time to leave for those guys. There are many, MANY, pilots around the globe who would like to be in your shoes. So, leave if you're not happy and give the position for those who would like to join EK.
If you look the situation anywhere around the world, all airlines are requiring more and more from their employees, just to maintain position in the battle. Markets are difficult and some loose and the other might win. Always two sides in every coin. The numerous days off, less work and more money are over, if you can't accept that, you loose the game.
I have been in contact to some pilots at EK, and I have got so many different answers HOW IT IS THERE?
I am currently invited for the assesment in this month, and honestly it's difficult to see where EK stands in today. I am really considering twice before my decision, if I pass the interview. It's not the money always the people looking for. I am currently on the left seat on B757, and looking for a stable company to work with. What do you think about this?
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Hey Jarops,
I think your idea about leaving a place you work if you do not like it is very naive. Why should you leave? Why should employees always bend over and take the shafting? When I came here I was single and now I have a wife and a baby on the works. I think that because my situation has changed and therefore my needs, I should request more money from the company.... It does not work this way. We have a contract, and just as the company wants us to keep our side of the deal, so do we. (But they have not, you only need to look at previous posts to see what I meen, ie CERBERUS) We do contribute immensely in the expansion and profits of this company. Emirates, and for that matter any airline or business is a success because of its employees. The fancy words we hear about "Our company" should not just be on the brochures and the media, but should be a day to day operation.
In the time that I have been here, they have never asked for our input, they have only implemented some bright manager's idea about how things should change in order to benefit the company. I agree, competition is harder now than it was a few years ago, but they have so much talent here, that if they tapped into it, management might even get some input which would be more cost effective and upset people even less.
At the end of the day, it would be nice to know that when you are getting shafted it is done honestly and spelled out for what it is, and not try to market it in a nice package and try to convince us that "in actual fact it is in our favour, and all this time we were losing out." I like things the way they were before, and if management wants to improve my T&Cs let me participate in the great new changes.
You want to come down here and join the happy club be my guest. No one says that Emirates is just bad. There are good things here aswelll. What people are saying on pprune and most of the time in flights is that it definetely is not what it used to be, and we do not compare with the major airlines of the world.
What you and everyone aspiring to come here must understand is that, just because you are having problems in your companies does not meen that by joining Emirates you are solving them or getting rid of them. You are going to get similar ones down here aswell. (And you are going to be at the bottom of the seniority aswell.)
On the other hand if you have already made up your mind what a great place this is, and how great things are on this side of the grass come and join then and let us moaners down here complain for non existant things....
I think your idea about leaving a place you work if you do not like it is very naive. Why should you leave? Why should employees always bend over and take the shafting? When I came here I was single and now I have a wife and a baby on the works. I think that because my situation has changed and therefore my needs, I should request more money from the company.... It does not work this way. We have a contract, and just as the company wants us to keep our side of the deal, so do we. (But they have not, you only need to look at previous posts to see what I meen, ie CERBERUS) We do contribute immensely in the expansion and profits of this company. Emirates, and for that matter any airline or business is a success because of its employees. The fancy words we hear about "Our company" should not just be on the brochures and the media, but should be a day to day operation.
In the time that I have been here, they have never asked for our input, they have only implemented some bright manager's idea about how things should change in order to benefit the company. I agree, competition is harder now than it was a few years ago, but they have so much talent here, that if they tapped into it, management might even get some input which would be more cost effective and upset people even less.
At the end of the day, it would be nice to know that when you are getting shafted it is done honestly and spelled out for what it is, and not try to market it in a nice package and try to convince us that "in actual fact it is in our favour, and all this time we were losing out." I like things the way they were before, and if management wants to improve my T&Cs let me participate in the great new changes.
You want to come down here and join the happy club be my guest. No one says that Emirates is just bad. There are good things here aswelll. What people are saying on pprune and most of the time in flights is that it definetely is not what it used to be, and we do not compare with the major airlines of the world.
What you and everyone aspiring to come here must understand is that, just because you are having problems in your companies does not meen that by joining Emirates you are solving them or getting rid of them. You are going to get similar ones down here aswell. (And you are going to be at the bottom of the seniority aswell.)
On the other hand if you have already made up your mind what a great place this is, and how great things are on this side of the grass come and join then and let us moaners down here complain for non existant things....
" Negotiated work place agreement" Almost fell off my chair when I read that one on the middle east forum!!!
JAROPS
As has been said a million times on this forum, you can not expect the views of this forum to help you make your mind up if EK is worth leaving a left hand seat job for or not. That is entirely up to you. The forum may spark a few questions to be asked when you are here.
For some driving a car with a large engine is all they need to be happy here it seems...for otheres EK beats the pants off the two bit outfit they were employed at before here, so they to are happy.
The equipment, layovers, destinations here are all great. Don't think you will find too many who have any complaints about those.
A few things have changed dramatically recently, and most of these have been to the detrement of the pilot body.
Firtsly;
1. Bid system changed....in itself not such a bad thing. And if it were allowed to work the way it was designed this could have been a very good thing ideed. But it would seem, that this change, and the focus of one management type, to stop pilots having strings of days off, has meant that rosters of 100 to 110 hrs with min (8) days off are now concidered the norm for Captains. Would you believe that one Captain I know, even had a less productive roster reissued to him, to limit his days off!!!!
2. Stick hour Vs block hour change. When flying on a heavy crew, the amount of the actual block time to be used when calculating max flying hours per month is reduced. Hence it is now legal here to fly more than 100hrs in 28days if those hours were done while flying long haul and heavy crew. See above note re rosters!
3. New Way of calculating pay. The pilot body has just recieved a pay cut. This has been in the pipeline for some time. Pilots are no longer payed for duties that are not done within an airplane ie reserve duties (and we now get lots of these), SEP training, Licence renewals are now all done for free.
These three changes happened independently of each other...but all have a pretty big effect on the package and moral at EK. And all happened with no say at all from the pilot body!!
Airbus FOs have just been told that their commands are going to slow down for while.......but DECs may be required to fill vacancies on the Boeing. Of note here, DECs do not need to be type qualified to join. So they will be offered a transition course, where as FOs here will not. Now I hope that this situation does change, as things around here often do, but I guess you can see this has not helped the moral of the Bus FOs.
Other things you need to find out about if they effect you are places at schools, time to command etc etc.
So to some up. Come on over and jump through the hoops. Stay a bit longer if you can, and take a good look around. If you have friends here, sit them down and pick their brains of what it is really all about. Ask as many questions as you can at the interview....but make sure you have enough info to make a truely balanced decision. As the costs of moving here, then moving home are great.
Good luck.
Don
JAROPS
As has been said a million times on this forum, you can not expect the views of this forum to help you make your mind up if EK is worth leaving a left hand seat job for or not. That is entirely up to you. The forum may spark a few questions to be asked when you are here.
For some driving a car with a large engine is all they need to be happy here it seems...for otheres EK beats the pants off the two bit outfit they were employed at before here, so they to are happy.
The equipment, layovers, destinations here are all great. Don't think you will find too many who have any complaints about those.
A few things have changed dramatically recently, and most of these have been to the detrement of the pilot body.
Firtsly;
1. Bid system changed....in itself not such a bad thing. And if it were allowed to work the way it was designed this could have been a very good thing ideed. But it would seem, that this change, and the focus of one management type, to stop pilots having strings of days off, has meant that rosters of 100 to 110 hrs with min (8) days off are now concidered the norm for Captains. Would you believe that one Captain I know, even had a less productive roster reissued to him, to limit his days off!!!!
2. Stick hour Vs block hour change. When flying on a heavy crew, the amount of the actual block time to be used when calculating max flying hours per month is reduced. Hence it is now legal here to fly more than 100hrs in 28days if those hours were done while flying long haul and heavy crew. See above note re rosters!
3. New Way of calculating pay. The pilot body has just recieved a pay cut. This has been in the pipeline for some time. Pilots are no longer payed for duties that are not done within an airplane ie reserve duties (and we now get lots of these), SEP training, Licence renewals are now all done for free.
These three changes happened independently of each other...but all have a pretty big effect on the package and moral at EK. And all happened with no say at all from the pilot body!!
Airbus FOs have just been told that their commands are going to slow down for while.......but DECs may be required to fill vacancies on the Boeing. Of note here, DECs do not need to be type qualified to join. So they will be offered a transition course, where as FOs here will not. Now I hope that this situation does change, as things around here often do, but I guess you can see this has not helped the moral of the Bus FOs.
Other things you need to find out about if they effect you are places at schools, time to command etc etc.
So to some up. Come on over and jump through the hoops. Stay a bit longer if you can, and take a good look around. If you have friends here, sit them down and pick their brains of what it is really all about. Ask as many questions as you can at the interview....but make sure you have enough info to make a truely balanced decision. As the costs of moving here, then moving home are great.
Good luck.
Don
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Jarops, my man you should run for president immediately and start talking up the boom!! In the last 10 years I can think of 3 talked about booms and none of them have happened. First we had the US retirements recruiting boom that said the majors needed 10,000 pilots each over the next 10 years. Then the low cost boom and now the China boom.
Sadly; all that seems to have happened is that pilots have been laid off, salaries and conditions have worsened, and the new hires have been prepared to take any sh*tty package to get their foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. That worked fine when there were 20 steps or so to climb but now we are down to about 4.
Mr K F Hucker (like the name), I actually am not absolutely sure how many hours we are contracted to now because of the recent credit changes. Before we were contracted to 990/year but that was abated for leave, standbys, office duties and sims. Now we get no credit for the any of the above. It looks to me as if we are contracted to about 914. That means that a new F/O would get (believe it or not) $60/hr and a new Captain $91/hr. We don't pay tax and look pretty secure at the moment. (Lets hope Iran stay in their box) To put it into perspective, this is how EK compares in USD/Hr with the US carriers and Virgin even after their recent pay slashes.
New Captain:
EK $91/hr
United $189
Delta $198
US Air $146
NW $191
Virgin $214 (Todays exchange rate)
5 Year F/O (Just in case upgrades do slow)
EK $68
United $124
Delta $131
US Air $96
NW $122
Virgin $142 (Todays exchange rate)
Food for thought!!
Ceberus
Sadly; all that seems to have happened is that pilots have been laid off, salaries and conditions have worsened, and the new hires have been prepared to take any sh*tty package to get their foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. That worked fine when there were 20 steps or so to climb but now we are down to about 4.
Mr K F Hucker (like the name), I actually am not absolutely sure how many hours we are contracted to now because of the recent credit changes. Before we were contracted to 990/year but that was abated for leave, standbys, office duties and sims. Now we get no credit for the any of the above. It looks to me as if we are contracted to about 914. That means that a new F/O would get (believe it or not) $60/hr and a new Captain $91/hr. We don't pay tax and look pretty secure at the moment. (Lets hope Iran stay in their box) To put it into perspective, this is how EK compares in USD/Hr with the US carriers and Virgin even after their recent pay slashes.
New Captain:
EK $91/hr
United $189
Delta $198
US Air $146
NW $191
Virgin $214 (Todays exchange rate)
5 Year F/O (Just in case upgrades do slow)
EK $68
United $124
Delta $131
US Air $96
NW $122
Virgin $142 (Todays exchange rate)
Food for thought!!
Ceberus