Air Arabia - all you need to know about it (threads merged)
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Canucks leaving
Weasel, I know all that. I was there. The new credit system is interesting and may help your rosters.
All in all, if you want to focus on work, money and career, ABY is a great place. But I'm heading out to Canadian Tire (we don't spell it with a 'y' over here) to look at some table saws.
Terdy, judging by your remark you need to get back to your massage chair. I'll send you directions to the vista building.
Tot ziens!
All in all, if you want to focus on work, money and career, ABY is a great place. But I'm heading out to Canadian Tire (we don't spell it with a 'y' over here) to look at some table saws.
Terdy, judging by your remark you need to get back to your massage chair. I'll send you directions to the vista building.
Tot ziens!
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I hear rumors that iceman is leaving. Cant be true cause i know he will never leave his wingman, who will i have to b*$# to all these times. If thats true then its time for me to pull the yellow and black handle and just punch out.
peace and love
peace and love
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Hi W Weasel,
Thank you for the kind words. I really never thought of myself or my abilities as something exceptional. I just do my job the way it should be done. Sometimes I even think that I am falling short of other's expectations, but I reckon that it in the end it is a good measure for us to strive even better.
Anyhow, we may argue on a few things and break bread with each other and laugh at each other's jokes, but i'm sure glad that somehow we are both able to get our message across. That's democracy. In any case though let me say that no matter what our circumstances in life are, I am pretty certain that we are all standing in a common ground. We want nothing but the best for our families. I am glad too that you are happy where you are. I can see that things are getting rosier and the grass getting even greener on your side of the fence and for that I say cheers with a cold San Mig! As they say, life is too short to waste it so let's enjoy it while we can.
Thank you for the kind words. I really never thought of myself or my abilities as something exceptional. I just do my job the way it should be done. Sometimes I even think that I am falling short of other's expectations, but I reckon that it in the end it is a good measure for us to strive even better.
Anyhow, we may argue on a few things and break bread with each other and laugh at each other's jokes, but i'm sure glad that somehow we are both able to get our message across. That's democracy. In any case though let me say that no matter what our circumstances in life are, I am pretty certain that we are all standing in a common ground. We want nothing but the best for our families. I am glad too that you are happy where you are. I can see that things are getting rosier and the grass getting even greener on your side of the fence and for that I say cheers with a cold San Mig! As they say, life is too short to waste it so let's enjoy it while we can.
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...maybe the fact that India needs more A320 and B737 pilots than the whole MENA area. Any idea how many 320s Indigo Air (for example) are eventually getting?? something to the tune of 102. I heard from many sources they have one of the highest salary packages in India...???
I think there will be enough work for the qualified/experienced Indian pilots in India, for many years to come.
Ax
I think there will be enough work for the qualified/experienced Indian pilots in India, for many years to come.
Ax
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Indian.....
Well,
for one you are right.
But with the current scale, AA is paying good money.
Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.
Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?
for one you are right.
But with the current scale, AA is paying good money.
Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.
Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?
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Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?
You talking about time on type or total time? If you have >2000hrs on type, you do get a significant increase from 1000 hrs. Check out
www.airarabia.com , click on careers and you'll see it all spelled out in an easy-to-read format...completely pilot-proof
Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.
If you factor in cost of living in the UAE (RENT, groceries, financing a decent automobile etc), its not THAT great, its good, but not great. You may still be able to save some money in India, even after taxes. At the end of the day, it all depends on your lifestyle...right?
Ax
You talking about time on type or total time? If you have >2000hrs on type, you do get a significant increase from 1000 hrs. Check out
www.airarabia.com , click on careers and you'll see it all spelled out in an easy-to-read format...completely pilot-proof
Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.
If you factor in cost of living in the UAE (RENT, groceries, financing a decent automobile etc), its not THAT great, its good, but not great. You may still be able to save some money in India, even after taxes. At the end of the day, it all depends on your lifestyle...right?
Ax
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"But with the current scale, AA is paying good money"
"Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?"
Good pay scale? well yes to some extent and actually no more than anything else.
This pay scale is prob good only if you are a cpt with >2000hrs on type cause if u are a senior f/o with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs reason for that will say that has to be in seat time. plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which i think is the most absurd thing i ever heard of. What does seniority pay have anything to do with what seat you hold? Dont even get me started on the seniority issue.
So overall a new upgraded junior cpt is not making much more than a senior f/o. maybe a bit more in the flying allowances but thats about it.
I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it. Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while. Other than that its piss all.
anyways that just my point of view im sure others might think otherwise.
"Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?"
Good pay scale? well yes to some extent and actually no more than anything else.
This pay scale is prob good only if you are a cpt with >2000hrs on type cause if u are a senior f/o with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs reason for that will say that has to be in seat time. plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which i think is the most absurd thing i ever heard of. What does seniority pay have anything to do with what seat you hold? Dont even get me started on the seniority issue.
So overall a new upgraded junior cpt is not making much more than a senior f/o. maybe a bit more in the flying allowances but thats about it.
I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it. Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while. Other than that its piss all.
anyways that just my point of view im sure others might think otherwise.
Last edited by busdriver22; 30th Oct 2007 at 13:47.
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busdriver22
Your point of view is right & it is too early to know where this package stands between the EK & EY new packages that will be issued by the new year,in fact i think this package was issued early to try to prevent a lot of guys from moving to EK or EY which didn't happen at all.
Your point of view is right & it is too early to know where this package stands between the EK & EY new packages that will be issued by the new year,in fact i think this package was issued early to try to prevent a lot of guys from moving to EK or EY which didn't happen at all.
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to me more than anything else its not the Financial issue that concerns me the most. its really crew sked. Rostering at AA is at its worst. certain pilots actually sit with rostering and tailor make there rosters and in the process screw up everyone elses sked, what kind of system is that? fair? uhu 
question
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Corrections?
Hey Busdriver22:
I don’t know where you are getting this information but unfortunately it is wrong or exaggerated hyperbole.
You say: “if you are a senior F/O with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs.” True but exaggerated. The senior F/O makes a basic salary, under the new scheme of 30,200 AED where the bottom Captain makes a basic salary of 34,000 AED. This difference alone is more money than the office secretaries make combined (3,800 AED per month.) 
Then if you assume a monthly credited pay time of 100 hours (about 85 flight/block hours.) A senior F/O makes 7,500 AED (not including PD which is the same for both.) The Captain will make 11,250 or a difference of another 3,750 AED. These numbers are significant, but if they are not significant to you I accept Checks, Credit Cards or you can leave the 4,000 – 8,000 AED in my mailbox.
You then say “for th[ey] will say that has to be in seat time.” I believe you are complaining about the fact that a new Captain will have to go to the bottom of the pay scale because you do not have time in the left seat in that type? Am I correct?
Now let me understand this! You think you should get the same pay as a Captain that has sat in the left seat of an A-320 for 2,000 hours since you sat in the right seat for 2,000 hours? Is that your complaint? In other words there should be no difference in pay for Captains and F/Os since the work is the same and the responsibility is also the same – right?
Last I checked every licensing agency on the planet JAA, FAA, CAA, GCAA all have a thing called “High Minimums.” Do you remember that? They don’t care if you have a million hours in the right seat, when you check out in the left seat you are a hindrance to the company until you accumulate TIME IN THE SEAT! You can not be scheduled with a new or low time F/O oops messes up scheduling. You have to add altitude and distance on all your minimums – oh there goes old Busdriver22 around again because he can’t get in when everyone else does. But you honestly believe you should be paid the same?
“…plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which I think is the most absurd thing I ever heard of.” Well you are right that it is absurd but your data is wrong. 3 years ago “seniority” pay was added to base pay and your statement would hold some (a very little) water; but that all ended in 2005. Today there is seniority pay and that is exactly what it is. It is not for end of service calculations nor is it for bonus calculations but it is transferable.
If you are a 2 year F/O (having completed 24 months of service) you will have 850 AED more per month in your salary. Assuming you have 2,000+ hours in type then your monthly, non-flying, package is 31,050 AED. Then let’s say you will upgrade to Captain. Oh and you have no time in the left seat. You monthly package is now 34,850 AED. After one year more you will increase to 35,850 per month and when you get 1,000 hours you go to 37,850. So what you say is just plain wrong. On your pay stub seniority is listed separately.
“So overall a new upgraded junior Capt is not making much more than a senior f/o.” Well if you consider about €9,000 - €20,000 a year “not much more” - well once again I take all forms of currency.
But that is just the basic. If you have children you get another 25,000 AED for education. Your annual bonus will be a minimum of 2,000 AED per month bonus given more. In other words, last year ABY gave 3 months basic salary bonus. Your new Captain would have received a minimum of 6,000 AED more than a senior F/O.
You say: “I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it.” I won’t argue with you on that point, it does have flaws that I have not mentioned but know about. However what you have mentioned is not them.
“Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while.”
Well, well, well, well, well! How many times have I heard that whining in my career? Of course the company should not think anything about the very guys who built the company. The very guys who started the company. The ones who took the chance on this unknown operation with two old antiquated 320s – of course the company should forget about them and pay all the attention to the new guy who hasn’t done one thing for the company except take the job. Of course all those F/Os that sat in the right seat and had to start over in the left seat should be paid the same as the new guys who have absolutely no time in the seat. Of course they should be paid the same as them.
As stated before, the contract attempts to address many things. About 40% of the Captains in the company are upgraded former F/Os. Some of these guys have been in the left seat for over 2 years and are receiving the pay of >2,000. The minimum time for a DEC is less than 1,000 in seat. So isn’t it fair for these guys who sat in the right seat for ABY, upgraded at ABY, sat in the left seat at ABY for 2.5 years and now have more time than the NEW DEC that has 900 in type. Shouldn’t he be paid more than the new guy even though the new guy is a DEC? I submit that loyalty does deserve credit but then again I am sure there are new guys that feel they should get the same restricted stock as the guys who have been here 3+ years.
Pharaoh is right in that where the package stands between EK-EY is still to be seen. The thing is that whatever they do is irrelevant to ABY in the grand scheme. The men and women who will go to EK-EY will more than likely go there anyway. As Cameltoe2006 said it best. It had nothing to do with the money but his quality of life. As with the Canadians that I know who have recently returned to Canada it was about their quality of life, retirement etc.
Then there is the other person: the one that is not now qualified for EK or EY. That person will come to ABY, get a couple thousand hours in a couple years+ and then easily go to EK-EY-QR or any one else. Or they are a qualified F/O, come to ABY for a couple years and upgrade to Captain. Then they get several hundred hours in the left seat and go somewhere else. They have no intention to stay at G9 and as a result are using it as a tool for their personal end. I have no problem with that but then don’t expect G9 to do that much for you either. It is your job and they get your services – nothing more, nothing less.
You say : “Rostering at AA is at its worst….” You must not have been here that long. Rostering is beautiful compared to what it was several years ago. Actually you now have a roster. Yes it may change, it may change a lot or it may not change one bit but you do have something. Many of us remember when every day was a standby day. You found out the night before whether you were going to be off or going to fly. Then the flight may have changed a couple times during the night, so what you have now is no where near the “worst.”
“…certain pilots actually sit with rostering and tailor make the[ir] rosters and in the process screw up everyone else’s sked…” I could write a thesis on this but there is a lot of misinformation again. You imply that tailoring the roster “screws up everyone else’s sked.” Have you ever worked in a seniority based airline? You know the one where you bid a series of flights on certain days called a roster. You know the one where the SENIOR guys take all the good stuff and the junior guys get all the S*#T? You know where the Senior guys have all the great days off and the junior guys spend 10 years flying every weekend and holiday that exists. You know where the senior guys fly 14 days a month and make more money than the junior guys who fly 22 days a month. You know the type of system that allows the upper guys to “SCREW” up the schedule of the junior guys? Did you ever work in such a system at maybe Air Canada, British Airways, Qantas, United Airlines, Mexicana, Asiana, Lufthansa, American Airlines or a host of other companies? Well that is what you are complaining about!
But there is more. By your statement, the way you worded it, you imply the sked is finished and then guys go change things. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most cases (unless a guy has to change things because of family emergencies etc) the stuff is done before hand. The guys go in and ask for certain flights on certain days absolutely, but then they get what they can get. A more senior guy comes in later and asks for a particular trip on a particular day (highly unlikely) the more senior guy may or may not get it.
You say, “Screw up everyone else’s…” You imply that everyone else is NOT doing this and “certain” pilots are doing it. Well if this is true then what is the problem? Are you angry that “certain” pilots are doing it and you are not? You imply that most pilots are not doing it and since everyone knows there is more than enough flying to go around, what are you missing. Since most pilots are not doing it by your own admission, then most pilots do not have a screwed up roster. So what is wrong? A certain (a few) can NOT screw up Everyone’s!
Finally you say “…actually sit with rostering…” I guess they are doing it out in the open. It is not a hidden concept then is it? Rostering and the “certain pilots” are not sitting is some smoke filled room, dividing out the future of who gets Pakistan. No they are sitting in the open I guess. If that is the case then why not sit with them? Yes you may have to do it on your own time but when in Rome, if you feel it is Rome and you are upset about it, do it.
To everyone else, the rostering at ABY is the primary cause of pilots leaving the company (an unofficial survey by me.) It is bad and the flying is hard – very hard. There are two tier pilots, training and everyone else. Training works hard but they do cherry pick the schedule of flights to death. Seniority does not matter in training and that is an advantage they get. Don’t misunderstand me, they can do it and I would too if I could; but the fundamental thinking of management in this area is morally disappointing to most pilots.
The contract is short in other areas too. Basically the pay does not compensate for the difficulty of the job. ABY flying is much more difficult than EK, QR or EY; that is fact but many of the reasons given need to be properly addressed.
What will happen? Who knows? This contract will not keep people from leaving nor will it make people happy. Those that compare to EK or EY are comparing apples to oranges and it does not hold water. But G9 does not have a problem getting people. We can complain about their qualifications etc, but the point is they are legal and the company will use them. It is that simple – I heard the arguments all before and they have never held water. I guess rain is coming soon!
“But then again I could be wrong!”
Burners and Out!
I don’t know where you are getting this information but unfortunately it is wrong or exaggerated hyperbole.
You say: “if you are a senior F/O with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs.” True but exaggerated. The senior F/O makes a basic salary, under the new scheme of 30,200 AED where the bottom Captain makes a basic salary of 34,000 AED. This difference alone is more money than the office secretaries make combined (3,800 AED per month.) Then if you assume a monthly credited pay time of 100 hours (about 85 flight/block hours.) A senior F/O makes 7,500 AED (not including PD which is the same for both.) The Captain will make 11,250 or a difference of another 3,750 AED. These numbers are significant, but if they are not significant to you I accept Checks, Credit Cards or you can leave the 4,000 – 8,000 AED in my mailbox.
You then say “for th[ey] will say that has to be in seat time.” I believe you are complaining about the fact that a new Captain will have to go to the bottom of the pay scale because you do not have time in the left seat in that type? Am I correct?
Now let me understand this! You think you should get the same pay as a Captain that has sat in the left seat of an A-320 for 2,000 hours since you sat in the right seat for 2,000 hours? Is that your complaint? In other words there should be no difference in pay for Captains and F/Os since the work is the same and the responsibility is also the same – right?
Last I checked every licensing agency on the planet JAA, FAA, CAA, GCAA all have a thing called “High Minimums.” Do you remember that? They don’t care if you have a million hours in the right seat, when you check out in the left seat you are a hindrance to the company until you accumulate TIME IN THE SEAT! You can not be scheduled with a new or low time F/O oops messes up scheduling. You have to add altitude and distance on all your minimums – oh there goes old Busdriver22 around again because he can’t get in when everyone else does. But you honestly believe you should be paid the same?
“…plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which I think is the most absurd thing I ever heard of.” Well you are right that it is absurd but your data is wrong. 3 years ago “seniority” pay was added to base pay and your statement would hold some (a very little) water; but that all ended in 2005. Today there is seniority pay and that is exactly what it is. It is not for end of service calculations nor is it for bonus calculations but it is transferable.
If you are a 2 year F/O (having completed 24 months of service) you will have 850 AED more per month in your salary. Assuming you have 2,000+ hours in type then your monthly, non-flying, package is 31,050 AED. Then let’s say you will upgrade to Captain. Oh and you have no time in the left seat. You monthly package is now 34,850 AED. After one year more you will increase to 35,850 per month and when you get 1,000 hours you go to 37,850. So what you say is just plain wrong. On your pay stub seniority is listed separately.
“So overall a new upgraded junior Capt is not making much more than a senior f/o.” Well if you consider about €9,000 - €20,000 a year “not much more” - well once again I take all forms of currency.
But that is just the basic. If you have children you get another 25,000 AED for education. Your annual bonus will be a minimum of 2,000 AED per month bonus given more. In other words, last year ABY gave 3 months basic salary bonus. Your new Captain would have received a minimum of 6,000 AED more than a senior F/O.
You say: “I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it.” I won’t argue with you on that point, it does have flaws that I have not mentioned but know about. However what you have mentioned is not them.
“Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while.”
Well, well, well, well, well! How many times have I heard that whining in my career? Of course the company should not think anything about the very guys who built the company. The very guys who started the company. The ones who took the chance on this unknown operation with two old antiquated 320s – of course the company should forget about them and pay all the attention to the new guy who hasn’t done one thing for the company except take the job. Of course all those F/Os that sat in the right seat and had to start over in the left seat should be paid the same as the new guys who have absolutely no time in the seat. Of course they should be paid the same as them.As stated before, the contract attempts to address many things. About 40% of the Captains in the company are upgraded former F/Os. Some of these guys have been in the left seat for over 2 years and are receiving the pay of >2,000. The minimum time for a DEC is less than 1,000 in seat. So isn’t it fair for these guys who sat in the right seat for ABY, upgraded at ABY, sat in the left seat at ABY for 2.5 years and now have more time than the NEW DEC that has 900 in type. Shouldn’t he be paid more than the new guy even though the new guy is a DEC? I submit that loyalty does deserve credit but then again I am sure there are new guys that feel they should get the same restricted stock as the guys who have been here 3+ years.
Pharaoh is right in that where the package stands between EK-EY is still to be seen. The thing is that whatever they do is irrelevant to ABY in the grand scheme. The men and women who will go to EK-EY will more than likely go there anyway. As Cameltoe2006 said it best. It had nothing to do with the money but his quality of life. As with the Canadians that I know who have recently returned to Canada it was about their quality of life, retirement etc.
Then there is the other person: the one that is not now qualified for EK or EY. That person will come to ABY, get a couple thousand hours in a couple years+ and then easily go to EK-EY-QR or any one else. Or they are a qualified F/O, come to ABY for a couple years and upgrade to Captain. Then they get several hundred hours in the left seat and go somewhere else. They have no intention to stay at G9 and as a result are using it as a tool for their personal end. I have no problem with that but then don’t expect G9 to do that much for you either. It is your job and they get your services – nothing more, nothing less.
You say : “Rostering at AA is at its worst….”
You must not have been here that long. Rostering is beautiful compared to what it was several years ago. Actually you now have a roster. Yes it may change, it may change a lot or it may not change one bit but you do have something. Many of us remember when every day was a standby day. You found out the night before whether you were going to be off or going to fly. Then the flight may have changed a couple times during the night, so what you have now is no where near the “worst.”“…certain pilots actually sit with rostering and tailor make the[ir] rosters and in the process screw up everyone else’s sked…” I could write a thesis on this but there is a lot of misinformation again. You imply that tailoring the roster “screws up everyone else’s sked.” Have you ever worked in a seniority based airline? You know the one where you bid a series of flights on certain days called a roster. You know the one where the SENIOR guys take all the good stuff and the junior guys get all the S*#T? You know where the Senior guys have all the great days off and the junior guys spend 10 years flying every weekend and holiday that exists. You know where the senior guys fly 14 days a month and make more money than the junior guys who fly 22 days a month. You know the type of system that allows the upper guys to “SCREW” up the schedule of the junior guys? Did you ever work in such a system at maybe Air Canada, British Airways, Qantas, United Airlines, Mexicana, Asiana, Lufthansa, American Airlines or a host of other companies? Well that is what you are complaining about!
But there is more. By your statement, the way you worded it, you imply the sked is finished and then guys go change things. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most cases (unless a guy has to change things because of family emergencies etc) the stuff is done before hand. The guys go in and ask for certain flights on certain days absolutely, but then they get what they can get. A more senior guy comes in later and asks for a particular trip on a particular day (highly unlikely) the more senior guy may or may not get it.
You say, “Screw up everyone else’s…” You imply that everyone else is NOT doing this and “certain” pilots are doing it. Well if this is true then what is the problem? Are you angry that “certain” pilots are doing it and you are not? You imply that most pilots are not doing it and since everyone knows there is more than enough flying to go around, what are you missing. Since most pilots are not doing it by your own admission, then most pilots do not have a screwed up roster. So what is wrong? A certain (a few) can NOT screw up Everyone’s!
Finally you say “…actually sit with rostering…” I guess they are doing it out in the open. It is not a hidden concept then is it? Rostering and the “certain pilots” are not sitting is some smoke filled room, dividing out the future of who gets Pakistan. No they are sitting in the open I guess. If that is the case then why not sit with them? Yes you may have to do it on your own time but when in Rome, if you feel it is Rome and you are upset about it, do it.
To everyone else, the rostering at ABY is the primary cause of pilots leaving the company (an unofficial survey by me.) It is bad and the flying is hard – very hard. There are two tier pilots, training and everyone else. Training works hard but they do cherry pick the schedule of flights to death. Seniority does not matter in training and that is an advantage they get. Don’t misunderstand me, they can do it and I would too if I could; but the fundamental thinking of management in this area is morally disappointing to most pilots.
The contract is short in other areas too. Basically the pay does not compensate for the difficulty of the job. ABY flying is much more difficult than EK, QR or EY; that is fact but many of the reasons given need to be properly addressed.
What will happen? Who knows? This contract will not keep people from leaving nor will it make people happy. Those that compare to EK or EY are comparing apples to oranges and it does not hold water. But G9 does not have a problem getting people. We can complain about their qualifications etc, but the point is they are legal and the company will use them. It is that simple – I heard the arguments all before and they have never held water. I guess rain is coming soon!
“But then again I could be wrong!”
Burners and Out!