Statins - miracle or menace?
Slowjet
You obviously have been close to people who have had medical problems and may or may not be justified in blaming doctors. Doctors make mistakes just like pilots. However, you are not justified in claiming nonsense about the pharmaceutical industry inducing GPs. This stopped over 20 years ago. Drug companies can't give doctors anything now. I am not a GP but such abject rubbish does your argument no credit
You obviously have been close to people who have had medical problems and may or may not be justified in blaming doctors. Doctors make mistakes just like pilots. However, you are not justified in claiming nonsense about the pharmaceutical industry inducing GPs. This stopped over 20 years ago. Drug companies can't give doctors anything now. I am not a GP but such abject rubbish does your argument no credit
Ok, this is a challenge to any of homonculus's patients. I bet there is some drug company reference somewhere in his or her office. (Look at the clock, everyone's got a Lisinopril clock.)
All joking apart, the inducements to GP's are probably few and far between, the Medicines Management Gestapo regulate this sort of thing robustly. I suspect it's still more of a problem in secondary care, loss leaders still seem to filter down to us in primary care-(who usually take on the role of life long prescribing.)
Although bodies such as NICE and the other quango's that have gone bust get knocked, they were initially very effective at spending tax payers on interventions which improved health. (They got a bit wooly in the end though.)
Oh well, time to strengthen 'me teeth with having a glass of flouridated water. (Bloody mass medicators.)
All joking apart, the inducements to GP's are probably few and far between, the Medicines Management Gestapo regulate this sort of thing robustly. I suspect it's still more of a problem in secondary care, loss leaders still seem to filter down to us in primary care-(who usually take on the role of life long prescribing.)
Although bodies such as NICE and the other quango's that have gone bust get knocked, they were initially very effective at spending tax payers on interventions which improved health. (They got a bit wooly in the end though.)
Oh well, time to strengthen 'me teeth with having a glass of flouridated water. (Bloody mass medicators.)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North of the Equator
Age: 59
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Statin Drugs - NO!!
Hi
Your number one priority in life while being on any kind of chronic subscription medicine should be to get off from it. Do not take the statin drugs, it is bad sceince and any doctor prescribing you statins have already given up on you!
The medicine will eventually stuff up your biochemistry i.e. "side effects"...you can easily and 100% take care of your health the natural way with no side effects...period!
"I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect"...taken from the Hippocratic Oath.
I am amazed how doctor's do not apply this oath.
The word "money" and ignorance rings a bell.
Air Traffic Controller
Massive heart attack in 2007, 3 stents
Completely off "Western Medicine" since Dec 2011
I only do Nutritional supplementation and lifestyle change(easy)
I have never felt so healthy since stopping all pharmaceutical and prescribed medicine!
If you want the facts and science, then speak to a Biochemist.
Blessings
Your number one priority in life while being on any kind of chronic subscription medicine should be to get off from it. Do not take the statin drugs, it is bad sceince and any doctor prescribing you statins have already given up on you!
The medicine will eventually stuff up your biochemistry i.e. "side effects"...you can easily and 100% take care of your health the natural way with no side effects...period!
"I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect"...taken from the Hippocratic Oath.
I am amazed how doctor's do not apply this oath.
The word "money" and ignorance rings a bell.
Air Traffic Controller
Massive heart attack in 2007, 3 stents
Completely off "Western Medicine" since Dec 2011
I only do Nutritional supplementation and lifestyle change(easy)
I have never felt so healthy since stopping all pharmaceutical and prescribed medicine!
If you want the facts and science, then speak to a Biochemist.
Blessings
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Light:
First: calm down. This is a web-board, not a courtroom.
Second: If you truly believe that chicanery outweighs productivity in the regular medical fields, then you must be ignoring the vastly greater amount of deception, greed, and out-and-out quackery that goes on in the area of "alternative medicine". In the absence of any scientific methodology, you are essentially your own experimental trial.
Good luck with that.
First: calm down. This is a web-board, not a courtroom.
Second: If you truly believe that chicanery outweighs productivity in the regular medical fields, then you must be ignoring the vastly greater amount of deception, greed, and out-and-out quackery that goes on in the area of "alternative medicine". In the absence of any scientific methodology, you are essentially your own experimental trial.
Good luck with that.
Hi Gingernut
No no clock or pen or anything else. In secondary medicine we no longer get to meet reps and get no free lunches. The companies themselves are so strictly controlled. I not infrequently go for a social meal with reps I know via my partner and who sell products I can never even access let alone prescribe in my specialty. I have to buy them dinner as they can't be seen to buy me a meal even from their own bank account
And so Light I find your comments offensive. I practice medicine to the best of my ability based on science. I have never accepted money to prescribe a particular treatment nor indeed has it ever been offered. The suggestion that I might is below the belt and unprofessional. you may want to ignore scientific evidence obtained by blinded research from Oxford University over many years, and you are Welcome to avoid modern medicine and return to a
World where life expectancy was only 49 just a century ago. But if you want to accuse the medical profession of corruption and effectively harming patients please provide the evidence or go back to the day job
No no clock or pen or anything else. In secondary medicine we no longer get to meet reps and get no free lunches. The companies themselves are so strictly controlled. I not infrequently go for a social meal with reps I know via my partner and who sell products I can never even access let alone prescribe in my specialty. I have to buy them dinner as they can't be seen to buy me a meal even from their own bank account
And so Light I find your comments offensive. I practice medicine to the best of my ability based on science. I have never accepted money to prescribe a particular treatment nor indeed has it ever been offered. The suggestion that I might is below the belt and unprofessional. you may want to ignore scientific evidence obtained by blinded research from Oxford University over many years, and you are Welcome to avoid modern medicine and return to a
World where life expectancy was only 49 just a century ago. But if you want to accuse the medical profession of corruption and effectively harming patients please provide the evidence or go back to the day job
...you can easily and 100% take care of your health the natural way with no side effects...period!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hang on a minute there Light. I am detecting an element of hypocrisy here. First you say
, and then tell us you've had a massive heart attack requiring 3 stents! Doesn't sound that your health was 100% taken care of. I'm also guessing that the stents weren't carved from hemp and inserted by a "biochemist" on the kitchen table with no anaesthetic, other drugs, or modern medical equipment!
you can easily and 100% take care of your health the natural way
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear oh dear; see what we mean ? Massive fight back by the medics but showing re-action rather than careful thought. LIGHT said he had a massive heart attack in 2007. He ditched western medicine in 2011. Er, three years later (!) and has never felt better. He was also asked to calm down yet my reading indicates a very calm submission with advice & info he wishes to share.
SLOWJET referred to a colleague of his & I think I know who he is. I agree, since ditching the statins (back on thread please) he has never looked better, fitter & pisses normal urine with no blood tracings & looks set to lead a fabulous retired life in the Med.
Gingernuts, I want you for my GP . Don't need an AME as I too, just hung up my flying boots. You sound perfectly balanced and of great comfort to many, including me, on this forum. Pity that many of your colleagues head for the prescription book faster than the Lone Ranger reached for his gun.
SLOWJET referred to a colleague of his & I think I know who he is. I agree, since ditching the statins (back on thread please) he has never looked better, fitter & pisses normal urine with no blood tracings & looks set to lead a fabulous retired life in the Med.
Gingernuts, I want you for my GP . Don't need an AME as I too, just hung up my flying boots. You sound perfectly balanced and of great comfort to many, including me, on this forum. Pity that many of your colleagues head for the prescription book faster than the Lone Ranger reached for his gun.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, not a "massive fight back" at all. The stated aim of this forum is
To debate, one must take an alternate view. There have been a number of accusations bordering on the criminal bandied about here, suggesting all sorts of ludicrous conspiracies. My treatment decisions are based on evidence from properly conducted clinical trials, overlaid with the wishes of my patients.
OK, I take your point that Light ditched western medicine after it had saved his life. Lucky for hime that he didn't choose to take this path in 2006. What happens when the stents fail (as they often do)? Will he simply allow himself to die?
Of course everybody has the right to make decisions about their own health care, but they should make those decisions based on accurate and validated information.
......debate about medical and health issues .......
OK, I take your point that Light ditched western medicine after it had saved his life. Lucky for hime that he didn't choose to take this path in 2006. What happens when the stents fail (as they often do)? Will he simply allow himself to die?
Of course everybody has the right to make decisions about their own health care, but they should make those decisions based on accurate and validated information.
Kind words, Landflaps, for the record I am a nurse, albeit working at an advanced level.
I guess what's happening on here is a display of passion, not always a bad thing, but as Bad Medicine points out, it's about playing the ball, not the player.
My passion for this sort of thing arises from having to deal with the scourge of arteriosclerosis on a daily basis. When I started my training many moons ago, families were destroyed by diability and death, caused by strokes and heart disease, (often with the victim being about my age.)
Things seem to have changed, for the better, and there are various reasons for this-people are smoking less, eating more fruit and veg, exercising more etc, but I still reckon statin's play a large part in both primary, and secondary prevention. Systematic, organised health care has also helped.
Make no mistake, drugs companies are ruthless, and I'm one of their biggest critics, but (my) very objective observations, convince me that statin's work.
This view point may change as we discover more, but that's okay, that's the nature of the beast.
Good health.
I guess what's happening on here is a display of passion, not always a bad thing, but as Bad Medicine points out, it's about playing the ball, not the player.
My passion for this sort of thing arises from having to deal with the scourge of arteriosclerosis on a daily basis. When I started my training many moons ago, families were destroyed by diability and death, caused by strokes and heart disease, (often with the victim being about my age.)
Things seem to have changed, for the better, and there are various reasons for this-people are smoking less, eating more fruit and veg, exercising more etc, but I still reckon statin's play a large part in both primary, and secondary prevention. Systematic, organised health care has also helped.
Make no mistake, drugs companies are ruthless, and I'm one of their biggest critics, but (my) very objective observations, convince me that statin's work.
This view point may change as we discover more, but that's okay, that's the nature of the beast.
Good health.
A great post 40&80
You are right - in todays regulated medicine as Gingernut alludes to, care is reasonably standardised and 'bad' docotrs and nurses are rare. Mistakes can happen, but the main determinator for whether a patient thinks a doctor is good or not (and vice versa) is communication. Unfortunately for us doctors patients vary in their preferences. I can send 2 patients to the same consultant - one will say the doctor was arrogant / uncaring / cold and the other will say he was authoratative and didnt waste their time talking about social matters.
Interestingly, when I read your consultant's comment about the GP I took the opposite view - he was saying he liked and knew the GP and she was kind; there you go.
But back on theme - statins. In fact there is evidence statins continue to be protective for months - much longer than they remain in the bloodstream. Aspirin will reduce platelet stickiness and prevent clots for at least 10 days. So whilst they are prescribed daily, missing the odd dose is not critical.
In fact very little in medicine is - clotbusters in heart attacks reduce the long term disability and death rate in the population, and paramedic services may reduce the death rate in a very small percentage of patients, but we rarely 'save lives' - we reduce pain, treat symptoms, hopefully put some cancers into remission and overall improve your statistics so you are on the planet with a reasonable quality of life for longer. Doctors who claim they save lives somehow rile me.
You are right - in todays regulated medicine as Gingernut alludes to, care is reasonably standardised and 'bad' docotrs and nurses are rare. Mistakes can happen, but the main determinator for whether a patient thinks a doctor is good or not (and vice versa) is communication. Unfortunately for us doctors patients vary in their preferences. I can send 2 patients to the same consultant - one will say the doctor was arrogant / uncaring / cold and the other will say he was authoratative and didnt waste their time talking about social matters.
Interestingly, when I read your consultant's comment about the GP I took the opposite view - he was saying he liked and knew the GP and she was kind; there you go.
But back on theme - statins. In fact there is evidence statins continue to be protective for months - much longer than they remain in the bloodstream. Aspirin will reduce platelet stickiness and prevent clots for at least 10 days. So whilst they are prescribed daily, missing the odd dose is not critical.
In fact very little in medicine is - clotbusters in heart attacks reduce the long term disability and death rate in the population, and paramedic services may reduce the death rate in a very small percentage of patients, but we rarely 'save lives' - we reduce pain, treat symptoms, hopefully put some cancers into remission and overall improve your statistics so you are on the planet with a reasonable quality of life for longer. Doctors who claim they save lives somehow rile me.
Please let me indulge myself a little.
When I first came to primary care (GP land) a chap came into the corridor complaining of chest pain, and promptly collapsed. A colleague and I administered a jab of morphine, sent for the ambulance and got him seen at hospital.
Thankfully he survived. (This was before the time of using aspirin/clotbusters.) Apart from reducing the risk of cardiogenic shock, it's likely we didn't make much a difference to the outcome. He survived through luck. Ever since, he equated the jab, with the saving of his life, and every Christmas, he brought my colleague and I a bottle of whisky.
In those days, we worked as hard as we do now, but we weren't organised. The average patient would come along with his sore toe, we'd treat the sore toe, and off home he'd go, happy with his prescription of flucloxacillin. The other stuff which should have been performed, like ensuring his blood pressure was controlled, or making sure the patient had the correct blood tests, mostly fell out of the window.
We (!) decided if we could organise things better, ie positively invite the patient to come along for the tests, monitoring, treatment etc. This was aided by various mechanisms, including the way we paid GP's, (through the PMS/GMS and what eventually became QOF-paying GP's for jumping through hoops, which impacted on health outcomes), extending the scope of other professionals (eg allowing nurses to prescribe), and putting someone in charge of the whole thing, (Practice nurses were good at this.)
We (roughly) estimated, that as a result of putting these measures in place, there were 4 extra people walking around at the end of the year, that may have died of heart disease previously.
It wasn't rocket science- no new drugs, no fancy clotbusters, no millions spent on tertiary care centres, just getting things organised for our 12,000 patients.
The system was rolled across the PCT, and eventually the country. I reckon there are thousands of people walking around as a result of this systemised approach to care.
AND NOT ONE OF THE B*GGARS HAVE EVER BOUGHT ME A DRINK.
A simplistic view point, I'm not here to defend QOF, I've got my own reservations, just trying to make the point that in Primary Care/GP land, the work isn't always that sexy, but it does make a difference to both the quality (morbidity) and quantitiy (mortality) of our patients lives.
I'd agree with homon, communication is key to keeping the art of medicine and nursing alive.
When I first came to primary care (GP land) a chap came into the corridor complaining of chest pain, and promptly collapsed. A colleague and I administered a jab of morphine, sent for the ambulance and got him seen at hospital.
Thankfully he survived. (This was before the time of using aspirin/clotbusters.) Apart from reducing the risk of cardiogenic shock, it's likely we didn't make much a difference to the outcome. He survived through luck. Ever since, he equated the jab, with the saving of his life, and every Christmas, he brought my colleague and I a bottle of whisky.
In those days, we worked as hard as we do now, but we weren't organised. The average patient would come along with his sore toe, we'd treat the sore toe, and off home he'd go, happy with his prescription of flucloxacillin. The other stuff which should have been performed, like ensuring his blood pressure was controlled, or making sure the patient had the correct blood tests, mostly fell out of the window.
We (!) decided if we could organise things better, ie positively invite the patient to come along for the tests, monitoring, treatment etc. This was aided by various mechanisms, including the way we paid GP's, (through the PMS/GMS and what eventually became QOF-paying GP's for jumping through hoops, which impacted on health outcomes), extending the scope of other professionals (eg allowing nurses to prescribe), and putting someone in charge of the whole thing, (Practice nurses were good at this.)
We (roughly) estimated, that as a result of putting these measures in place, there were 4 extra people walking around at the end of the year, that may have died of heart disease previously.
It wasn't rocket science- no new drugs, no fancy clotbusters, no millions spent on tertiary care centres, just getting things organised for our 12,000 patients.
The system was rolled across the PCT, and eventually the country. I reckon there are thousands of people walking around as a result of this systemised approach to care.
AND NOT ONE OF THE B*GGARS HAVE EVER BOUGHT ME A DRINK.
A simplistic view point, I'm not here to defend QOF, I've got my own reservations, just trying to make the point that in Primary Care/GP land, the work isn't always that sexy, but it does make a difference to both the quality (morbidity) and quantitiy (mortality) of our patients lives.
I'd agree with homon, communication is key to keeping the art of medicine and nursing alive.
Last edited by gingernut; 22nd Sep 2012 at 19:06.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East Anglia
Age: 83
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Question regarding Statins.......
Does life time daily Statin medication deplete Cq10 in the body to a dangerous level?...if so is it wise to supplement with CQ10 daily tablet intake?
I this is a fact... then the NHS would also I feel also have me on daily CQ10 tablets.
The truth is I have absolutely no real idea what this CQ10 is all about other than what is on the internet....the internet sales persons make it sound very important that I buy some.
Does life time daily Statin medication deplete Cq10 in the body to a dangerous level?...if so is it wise to supplement with CQ10 daily tablet intake?
I this is a fact... then the NHS would also I feel also have me on daily CQ10 tablets.
The truth is I have absolutely no real idea what this CQ10 is all about other than what is on the internet....the internet sales persons make it sound very important that I buy some.
Last edited by 40&80; 22nd Sep 2012 at 19:58.
CQ 10 ia a substance the worried well buy on the Internet. It is claimed to cure blood pressure, heart attacks, strokes and many other diseases. If there were a scientific basis for this we would be using in in conventional medicine. We don't. There isn't.
That is not to say many believe in it. Just that the scientists don't. Anti oxidants don't work. If they did we would all live to 100
That is not to say many believe in it. Just that the scientists don't. Anti oxidants don't work. If they did we would all live to 100
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the concern for outsiders are the large drug companies.
Looking at medicine in the future we would want "cures"! Cures for Cancer! Heart disease! etc etc etc.
Cures would not suit the big drug companies! Prescribe a drug for life and the drug companies get an income for life which is very different to selling a product which you do not need after a couple of weeks! End of income.
Those drug companies are going to protect those life long earners maybe develop drugs which are better tolerated but still life long earners.
BP tablets and Statins fill that category!
In Fact I would go further the drug companies will produce research which paints a picture they want to paint and have a massive marketing effort placed to make sure the medical world are conditioned to believe it!
I wonder how much the drug companies actually stifle medical advancement in finding proper cures as that is the very last thing they want!
The latest trend no doubt backed up by shady research is for mass medication over a set age Wonderful for the drug companies so do not be surprised that some of us are sceptical? We all know that research like statistics can be made to read what you want them to read.
Pace
Looking at medicine in the future we would want "cures"! Cures for Cancer! Heart disease! etc etc etc.
Cures would not suit the big drug companies! Prescribe a drug for life and the drug companies get an income for life which is very different to selling a product which you do not need after a couple of weeks! End of income.
Those drug companies are going to protect those life long earners maybe develop drugs which are better tolerated but still life long earners.
BP tablets and Statins fill that category!
In Fact I would go further the drug companies will produce research which paints a picture they want to paint and have a massive marketing effort placed to make sure the medical world are conditioned to believe it!
I wonder how much the drug companies actually stifle medical advancement in finding proper cures as that is the very last thing they want!
The latest trend no doubt backed up by shady research is for mass medication over a set age Wonderful for the drug companies so do not be surprised that some of us are sceptical? We all know that research like statistics can be made to read what you want them to read.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Sep 2012 at 11:08.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I started reading Dr Duane Graveline's book 'Statin Drugs Side Effects and the Misguided War on Cholesterol'. He is one of 'ours', being a Flight Surgeon (USAF ret) and Astronaut-scientist (NASA Ret) as well as a family doctor. Cholesterol is what makes your brain and memory function. You might loose your medical very quickly if you have some of the side-effects he describes and suffered himself. Red Yeast Rice will have the same cholesterol-lowering effect but with no side-effects, if you think that cholesterol must be lowered for any reason.
I stopped taking simvastatin a year ago, I couldn't remember all the digits of a frequency given by ATC anymore, it was like one of the digits 'dropped into a hole' (short term memory lapse). The fog has now cleared and being clear of statins I am ready for more ATC frequencies and waypoints.
If I would have mentioned this memory problem to a GP he would have said it is old age and never connected it to statins.
I stopped taking simvastatin a year ago, I couldn't remember all the digits of a frequency given by ATC anymore, it was like one of the digits 'dropped into a hole' (short term memory lapse). The fog has now cleared and being clear of statins I am ready for more ATC frequencies and waypoints.
If I would have mentioned this memory problem to a GP he would have said it is old age and never connected it to statins.
Dirkdj - a few weeks ago I flew my aircraft and it rained. The next day I didnt fly and it was sunny. So I sold my aircraft because it makes it rain.
Sorry, but your ATC problems were not due to statins. How do we know? Because objective research on thousands of patients has shown it doesnt happen.
Pace - first we had dodgy doctors, now you are claiming there is shady research. The only shady elements are to do with quacks and alternative medicine. Research is highly regulated by ethics committees. You are talking rubbish.
Yes drug companies do exist to make profits and put themselves first. A few years perhaps the best anaesthetic drug in use was pulled because the drug company wanted the plant to make an antibiotic which was more profitable. I am no excusnik for the pharmaceutical industry. BUT without chemists, drug companies and engineers, medicine would still be chopping off legs on the unanaesthetised. There would be no diagnostics and no cancer treatment.
In fact patent law has changed so that the time a pharmaceutical company has to make a profit is so limited they want high profits per unit dose and mass uptake - having someone on a drug long term is little use as it will come off patent
Sorry, but your ATC problems were not due to statins. How do we know? Because objective research on thousands of patients has shown it doesnt happen.
Pace - first we had dodgy doctors, now you are claiming there is shady research. The only shady elements are to do with quacks and alternative medicine. Research is highly regulated by ethics committees. You are talking rubbish.
Yes drug companies do exist to make profits and put themselves first. A few years perhaps the best anaesthetic drug in use was pulled because the drug company wanted the plant to make an antibiotic which was more profitable. I am no excusnik for the pharmaceutical industry. BUT without chemists, drug companies and engineers, medicine would still be chopping off legs on the unanaesthetised. There would be no diagnostics and no cancer treatment.
In fact patent law has changed so that the time a pharmaceutical company has to make a profit is so limited they want high profits per unit dose and mass uptake - having someone on a drug long term is little use as it will come off patent