Resting techniques - advice pls!
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Resting techniques - advice pls!
Hey everyone,
I'd love to get some help on resting techniques to trick your body clock and head off to dreamland.
I have an awfully hard time to fall asleep in general (unless I am totally exhausted from activities during my day), mainly because my mind wanders around so much when I lie in bed and try to sleep. I think about the weirdest things that usually don't bother me during the day, and I make mental plans for stuff I have to do or whatever. I just feel very busy before finally doozing off.
In general it takes me at least 1hr every night to fall asleep, and I find it next to impossible when my body doesn't want to / need to sleep i.e. going to bed at 3pm to be properly rested.
I tried everything from counting sheep to knocking my head against the walls
, and obviously medications wouldn't help when flying.
Any advice on how to get to sleep faster? Are there any techniques you try for example during a day layover with min. rest? I get awfully annoyed by myself when not being able to sleep.
Any help would be appreciated! Thx!
INNflt
I'd love to get some help on resting techniques to trick your body clock and head off to dreamland.
I have an awfully hard time to fall asleep in general (unless I am totally exhausted from activities during my day), mainly because my mind wanders around so much when I lie in bed and try to sleep. I think about the weirdest things that usually don't bother me during the day, and I make mental plans for stuff I have to do or whatever. I just feel very busy before finally doozing off.
In general it takes me at least 1hr every night to fall asleep, and I find it next to impossible when my body doesn't want to / need to sleep i.e. going to bed at 3pm to be properly rested.
I tried everything from counting sheep to knocking my head against the walls
, and obviously medications wouldn't help when flying.Any advice on how to get to sleep faster? Are there any techniques you try for example during a day layover with min. rest? I get awfully annoyed by myself when not being able to sleep.
Any help would be appreciated! Thx!
INNflt
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I have an awfully hard time to fall asleep in general (unless I am totally exhausted from activities during my day),
I appreciate your predicament though.
Have a close look at your sleep hygiene- more info here.... Sleep Problems - A Self Help Guide
Avoid caffeine 4-6 hrs prior to bedtime. Try camomile tea, (it tastes like sh*te) but really seems to help, and finally, remember, if you don't sleep, your body will still be resting.
Sweet dreams
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I assume this thread will be for airline crews, and not bank employees...!
Further, we all are different individuals.
xxx
Some of us are "day people - type A", and others are "night owls - type B".
Supposedly, the human race needs 8 hours of rest (or sleep)...
I know some who are happy with 6 or 7 hours. I need 9 or 10 hours to rest.
xxx
Through my airline career, I flew mostly long range oceanic flights.
Did not mind 10-12 hrs flights, and being up 18-24 hours from bed to bed.
Local time change never bothered me. My wristwatch is always on GMT.
I went to bed when tired, was up when not tired. Who cares about local time.
Hated short flights, and 4 sector days like we did with PanAm 727s in Berlin.
xxx
Waking up, I am always a zombie. My wake-up call was always 1 hour earlier than others.
To get up, took liters of expresso to get awake and remember my name and location.
xxx
So with a pilot career, think abouty how you are.
Some imagine that flying short flights are best, up at 06:00 and bed at 23:00.
Maybe consider your entire career on 737 or 320s...
xxx
I always went to bed after dinner and 2 glasses of red wine, regardless of local time.
Your body decides what your body time is, not your hotel location.
So what, if you do bacon and eggs at 20:00 local and a steak dinner at 07:00 if that is what you feel.
Who cares if I had a beer at the bar/lobby early morning, then went to bed for a late evening flight.
xxx
Yes, stay away from coffee if that prevents from sleeping.
Strange is, I can have 2 or 3 coffees in Italy and sleep tight.
If your airline rule is "NO alcohol a week before flight" - remember coca cola and pepsi = caffeine.
Give me a cup of tea, and I could not sleep.
xxx
For me, my advice to you is -
Live as your body feels, go to bed when tired, stay up when not tired.
As pilot, be prepared to be on duty long hours, even if flying short flights.
A 12 hours-long flight non-stop is not double physical effort than 4 sectors of 90 minutes.
Honestly - a sector is a sector, no matter how short... or long.
Just my opinion, and how my body reacts.
Now retired, I stay up when I feel not tired. Even for the entire night.
And next day, I might be in bed until the afternoon, when rested.
xxx
And final word - you could be different, and better be a bank teller.
I remember some people suffering from 1 hour local time change in USA and Europe.
Going from UK to Germany, or New York to Chicago for some is a major body time change.
xxx
Happy contrails
Further, we all are different individuals.
xxx
Some of us are "day people - type A", and others are "night owls - type B".
Supposedly, the human race needs 8 hours of rest (or sleep)...
I know some who are happy with 6 or 7 hours. I need 9 or 10 hours to rest.
xxx
Through my airline career, I flew mostly long range oceanic flights.
Did not mind 10-12 hrs flights, and being up 18-24 hours from bed to bed.
Local time change never bothered me. My wristwatch is always on GMT.
I went to bed when tired, was up when not tired. Who cares about local time.
Hated short flights, and 4 sector days like we did with PanAm 727s in Berlin.
xxx
Waking up, I am always a zombie. My wake-up call was always 1 hour earlier than others.
To get up, took liters of expresso to get awake and remember my name and location.
xxx
So with a pilot career, think abouty how you are.
Some imagine that flying short flights are best, up at 06:00 and bed at 23:00.
Maybe consider your entire career on 737 or 320s...
xxx
I always went to bed after dinner and 2 glasses of red wine, regardless of local time.
Your body decides what your body time is, not your hotel location.
So what, if you do bacon and eggs at 20:00 local and a steak dinner at 07:00 if that is what you feel.
Who cares if I had a beer at the bar/lobby early morning, then went to bed for a late evening flight.
xxx
Yes, stay away from coffee if that prevents from sleeping.
Strange is, I can have 2 or 3 coffees in Italy and sleep tight.
If your airline rule is "NO alcohol a week before flight" - remember coca cola and pepsi = caffeine.
Give me a cup of tea, and I could not sleep.
xxx
For me, my advice to you is -
Live as your body feels, go to bed when tired, stay up when not tired.
As pilot, be prepared to be on duty long hours, even if flying short flights.
A 12 hours-long flight non-stop is not double physical effort than 4 sectors of 90 minutes.
Honestly - a sector is a sector, no matter how short... or long.
Just my opinion, and how my body reacts.
Now retired, I stay up when I feel not tired. Even for the entire night.
And next day, I might be in bed until the afternoon, when rested.
xxx
And final word - you could be different, and better be a bank teller.
I remember some people suffering from 1 hour local time change in USA and Europe.
Going from UK to Germany, or New York to Chicago for some is a major body time change.
xxx
Happy contrails
Psychophysiological entity
Sounds like you were lucky, that very deep sleep-state near waking, being the clue to a better quality of sleep perhaps.
Zolpidem. I'm worried now.
Some time ago I mentioned that I felt this 'Hypnotic' type sleeper might be good for aircrew. Not approved yet, but used by American military crews as an after-flight remedy. Very, very fast, and for me at least, no effects that I could detect upon waking. It was that high speed that gave the problems.
It seems that Zolpidem - trade name Ambien in the US, has been used for 'Date rape.' Two minute white powder tablets and within15 mins, the victim was 'out of it'.
I've yet to talk to the manufacturers, but having used it for years because of back problems, living in two countries and other age-related insomnia, I'm now finding it's very much slower in kicking in, and what's more important, it lingers much longer.
A recent study has shown that people using 'sleepers' in the Hypnotic category, and specifically Zolpidem, are 2 to 3 times as likely to have a car accident the next day. This makes it as bad as Ambien CR (controlled release) which is designed to last all night.
Could this be because they have slowed down the timing of the drug?
Wikki has a lot to say about it, and I feel that it's a shame if the 15 mins and 2 - 3 hours half-life tablets become unavailable because of the misuse.
Zolpidem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zolpidem. I'm worried now.
Some time ago I mentioned that I felt this 'Hypnotic' type sleeper might be good for aircrew. Not approved yet, but used by American military crews as an after-flight remedy. Very, very fast, and for me at least, no effects that I could detect upon waking. It was that high speed that gave the problems.
It seems that Zolpidem - trade name Ambien in the US, has been used for 'Date rape.' Two minute white powder tablets and within15 mins, the victim was 'out of it'.
I've yet to talk to the manufacturers, but having used it for years because of back problems, living in two countries and other age-related insomnia, I'm now finding it's very much slower in kicking in, and what's more important, it lingers much longer.
A recent study has shown that people using 'sleepers' in the Hypnotic category, and specifically Zolpidem, are 2 to 3 times as likely to have a car accident the next day. This makes it as bad as Ambien CR (controlled release) which is designed to last all night.
Could this be because they have slowed down the timing of the drug?
Wikki has a lot to say about it, and I feel that it's a shame if the 15 mins and 2 - 3 hours half-life tablets become unavailable because of the misuse.
Zolpidem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Hmmm, I think that this has been muted many times before on here.
Whilst the "Z" drugs were initially as being a safer alternative, than the old fashioned "benzo's," in practice the problems associated with their use are similar.
Whilst the "Z" drugs were initially as being a safer alternative, than the old fashioned "benzo's," in practice the problems associated with their use are similar.
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Does anybody know the following: If you have problems with your sleeping rythm/pattern especially when doing long range and you would tell your aeromedical doctor: Will you get your JAR Class 1 Medical?
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I've been an insomniac for years, so any advice would be good.
One thing I will say is avoid anything like Zolpidem, I've seen first hand what that stuff does to people, watching the one you love being stoned off her face all day is not pleasant, and it will not help you at all.
Oh, BelArgUSA, I'm one of those you mention at the end of your post. I can fly to the USA and my body adjusts to the time difference instantly. Move me one hour and it can take weeks for the effects to ease. Makes it hell when the clocks change twice a year.....
One thing I will say is avoid anything like Zolpidem, I've seen first hand what that stuff does to people, watching the one you love being stoned off her face all day is not pleasant, and it will not help you at all.
Oh, BelArgUSA, I'm one of those you mention at the end of your post. I can fly to the USA and my body adjusts to the time difference instantly. Move me one hour and it can take weeks for the effects to ease. Makes it hell when the clocks change twice a year.....
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getting to sleep
I found best to get to sleep is
draw the curtains in the room
listen to an audio tape with a story on it, or a programme recorded from Radio 4,
and some times I would be asleep before 5 minutes had passed, only once did I not go to sleep before the end of the tape at 45minutes clicked off.
draw the curtains in the room
listen to an audio tape with a story on it, or a programme recorded from Radio 4,
and some times I would be asleep before 5 minutes had passed, only once did I not go to sleep before the end of the tape at 45minutes clicked off.
Psychophysiological entity
(This is a fast ramble. I just don't have time to edit it down to a quarter the size.)
Yes, I've certainly posted on Zolpidem in the past. It's been a tremendous help to me for ages, resting my back in a way that natural sleep failed to do and helping when I'm trying to fit in with the folk in who's houses I'm staying. Some people go to bed before I would normally have dinner. So weird.
I did however try to throttle back on the quantity, breaking a lined tablet in half, then nibbling a bit off one half. Got it all worked out to take the minimum possible.
Driving and various computer (PhD organized) IQ tests, and the great game Bloxors all seemed to put me ahead of the game for my age, though use for several days in a row did seem to coincide with senior moments like looking in the fridge for something...but not quite sure what. Then came the change.
Quite recently, and with a new prescription, the timing seemed different, and certainly the after affects were. For a long time I would have said they were a life-saver for me, with no discernible affects if used sensibly, but now that seems to be lost. Personally, I'm trying very hard to quit the habit as they say, but I have several reasons why I need to force my level of sleep past the natural level. That busy brain thing - described so well above - is just one of them. Sooooooo annoying when I've been fighting sleep at teatime.
First and foremost, I have no flying duties anymore...driving is the main public safety issue which I take very seriously. 15 hours following a very small amout of H type sleeper. So no help at all to sleep deprived aircrew.
My huge post on "benzo's," was made a sticky, but the rage that they caused in me...or more correctly, the release of suppressed rage,(see gingernut recently) was too serious to consider using them for anything but diagnostic tests. The point being that I wouldn't have guessed that I had that latent aggression, so anyone might be so affected, and perhaps they won't know until it's too late.
I'm really surprised at the comparison of Valium and Zolpidem, for me they're chalk and cheese, but then, that's one person, and as I said, I had throttled back to a minute dose.
It all comes back to that argument about being very tired while flying, V taking something that will leave you feeling fresh, but may have some problems stacking up deep in the mind.
Recently, a well known old-timer said words to the affect, 'Hard luck, it goes with the territory.' He didn't say, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.' But he may as well have done. Absolutely no help at all. A fortune in training costs, huge mortgage and a mass of kids...resignation is not an option, and management is not going to give a sympathetic ear. You're in love with the job anyway, so you just have to find a solution.
I'm getting some success with going over the story of an appropriate book. The scene set in a more peaceful era, ignoring totally the facts of the poverty and hardship. I don't stick to the plot at all if there's a stressful part, but just live in this blissful period as well as my mind can hold it. Quite often upon waking, I'll realise that I have only got a few moments into the story before falling asleep, but all too often, I'll be realising this at 02:00!
and the whole process has to be started again.
Living in the fantasy forms a barrier from the turmoil for those important minutes.
At the end of the proverbial day, I know that I have to put right, or at least face up to the problems that are causing the mental turmoil. High workload, like learning a new aircraft, never fazed me, it was deeper worries that gnawed away at my sleep. How we face up to life's problems is perhaps more important than how they are finally solved or accepted, but coping is hard to do from a depressed standpoint. So often we need professional help, but that's a no-no for aircrew. The poor old pilot has to grit his teeth and pretend that his mind is quite different to ordinary humans. This is so wrong.
Yes, I've certainly posted on Zolpidem in the past. It's been a tremendous help to me for ages, resting my back in a way that natural sleep failed to do and helping when I'm trying to fit in with the folk in who's houses I'm staying. Some people go to bed before I would normally have dinner. So weird.
I did however try to throttle back on the quantity, breaking a lined tablet in half, then nibbling a bit off one half. Got it all worked out to take the minimum possible.
Driving and various computer (PhD organized) IQ tests, and the great game Bloxors all seemed to put me ahead of the game for my age, though use for several days in a row did seem to coincide with senior moments like looking in the fridge for something...but not quite sure what. Then came the change.
Quite recently, and with a new prescription, the timing seemed different, and certainly the after affects were. For a long time I would have said they were a life-saver for me, with no discernible affects if used sensibly, but now that seems to be lost. Personally, I'm trying very hard to quit the habit as they say, but I have several reasons why I need to force my level of sleep past the natural level. That busy brain thing - described so well above - is just one of them. Sooooooo annoying when I've been fighting sleep at teatime.
First and foremost, I have no flying duties anymore...driving is the main public safety issue which I take very seriously. 15 hours following a very small amout of H type sleeper. So no help at all to sleep deprived aircrew.
My huge post on "benzo's," was made a sticky, but the rage that they caused in me...or more correctly, the release of suppressed rage,(see gingernut recently) was too serious to consider using them for anything but diagnostic tests. The point being that I wouldn't have guessed that I had that latent aggression, so anyone might be so affected, and perhaps they won't know until it's too late.
I'm really surprised at the comparison of Valium and Zolpidem, for me they're chalk and cheese, but then, that's one person, and as I said, I had throttled back to a minute dose.
It all comes back to that argument about being very tired while flying, V taking something that will leave you feeling fresh, but may have some problems stacking up deep in the mind.
Recently, a well known old-timer said words to the affect, 'Hard luck, it goes with the territory.' He didn't say, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.' But he may as well have done. Absolutely no help at all. A fortune in training costs, huge mortgage and a mass of kids...resignation is not an option, and management is not going to give a sympathetic ear. You're in love with the job anyway, so you just have to find a solution.
I'm getting some success with going over the story of an appropriate book. The scene set in a more peaceful era, ignoring totally the facts of the poverty and hardship. I don't stick to the plot at all if there's a stressful part, but just live in this blissful period as well as my mind can hold it. Quite often upon waking, I'll realise that I have only got a few moments into the story before falling asleep, but all too often, I'll be realising this at 02:00!
and the whole process has to be started again.Living in the fantasy forms a barrier from the turmoil for those important minutes.
At the end of the proverbial day, I know that I have to put right, or at least face up to the problems that are causing the mental turmoil. High workload, like learning a new aircraft, never fazed me, it was deeper worries that gnawed away at my sleep. How we face up to life's problems is perhaps more important than how they are finally solved or accepted, but coping is hard to do from a depressed standpoint. So often we need professional help, but that's a no-no for aircrew. The poor old pilot has to grit his teeth and pretend that his mind is quite different to ordinary humans. This is so wrong.
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Well, since it's just after 4am it means I've had 4 hours sleep so I think I can safely say Zolpidem is as much use to me as a fart in a spacesuit.
Guess I'd better go back to the doc, I would love to have just ONE "normal" night of sleep.........
Guess I'd better go back to the doc, I would love to have just ONE "normal" night of sleep.........
Psychophysiological entity
That was the point about Zolp...a two to three hour half-life. For a lot of people, getting started with sleep was all they needed. 'Sleep begets sleep.' as the old saying goes.
The controlled release pills were developed to cover the recidivist. Ambien CR was designed to zap you, then trickle the rest in over time. No way should you fly or drive after taking that multi-layer pill.
Last night I tried hard to follow my own hypothesis. Very hard, but I fought against the swirling morass.
It was once thought that the average person has ... I don't know, something like 14,000 thoughts a day, I think is was. How did they come up with that? The testing messing with the results. So Heisenburgish. My mind was in its typical turmoil, but I concentrated on keeping to the plot, and it worked quite well. I have the added problem of a radioactive prostate needing a 3 hour service in the bathroom, so can't really win, but I did manage to work the same trick 3 times.
While going back to bed, I gave some thought to my...erm, thoughts. The flush, would it wake the Rivetess? A computer problem. Would Sony pay for a new battery? The dog next door. The dimmer by my bed...I'd got in in a Curry's shop 25 years ago. Would it keep on working? Those are the ones I can remember. Personal things, probably 4 times that amount. Focusing in on a blissful fantasy is perhaps an acquired skill.
The controlled release pills were developed to cover the recidivist. Ambien CR was designed to zap you, then trickle the rest in over time. No way should you fly or drive after taking that multi-layer pill.
Last night I tried hard to follow my own hypothesis. Very hard, but I fought against the swirling morass.
It was once thought that the average person has ... I don't know, something like 14,000 thoughts a day, I think is was. How did they come up with that? The testing messing with the results. So Heisenburgish. My mind was in its typical turmoil, but I concentrated on keeping to the plot, and it worked quite well. I have the added problem of a radioactive prostate needing a 3 hour service in the bathroom, so can't really win, but I did manage to work the same trick 3 times.
While going back to bed, I gave some thought to my...erm, thoughts. The flush, would it wake the Rivetess? A computer problem. Would Sony pay for a new battery? The dog next door. The dimmer by my bed...I'd got in in a Curry's shop 25 years ago. Would it keep on working? Those are the ones I can remember. Personal things, probably 4 times that amount. Focusing in on a blissful fantasy is perhaps an acquired skill.
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Well, the Zolp is in the bin. Damned stuff wasn't knocking me out like it's supposed to, I was awake but totally blacked out for two hours and THEN went to sleep. I know this because I've seen emails, etc, I don't remember sending during the two hours after taking the zolp. Frikking scary when you have no idea what you are doing, woke up yesterday morning (at 0230!!!) and thought someone had come in here and cleaned my apartment.
I ain't risking any more of that stuff, or anything like it, because that sort of thing is frightening....
I ain't risking any more of that stuff, or anything like it, because that sort of thing is frightening....
Psychophysiological entity
It may be that you just can not use that drug...in the same way that I can not use Valium. However, which drug company was on the packet? Just a thought.
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This is the thing, I've had other sleeping pills in the past which had absolutely no effect, not even the blackouts. Valium and it's ilk is good for easing muscle cramps in my back, and that's it. Starting to wonder what the next drug will be, but I ain't constantly switching drugs because that is a sure way to screw me up. Also, I know Zolp and stuff like it is liable to make the very things that happened to me actually happen, so that has me worried.
The name on the pack? Well, I'm in Belgium so it's "Eurogenerics".
God, what I would give for one good night's sleep
The name on the pack? Well, I'm in Belgium so it's "Eurogenerics".
God, what I would give for one good night's sleep
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My rules:
- Get some excercise each day. Even in a cramped hotel-room you can get your heart rate up and make yourself tired. Crunches, push-ups, squats etc.
If you manage to make yourself physically tired, you will sleep better.
- Go to bed before it's to late. When I start yawning I know it's time. Be quick about it aswell, don't let the sleeptrain pass. You will be even more tired when the next "train" comes 3-4 hours later and by then you might be so tired you might not get any sleep that night. It takes energy to go to sleep. If you're too tired, you simply won't have any control over it.
- Don't watch the telly. It's amazing. I've never seen a lord of the rings film without dozing off after the first half hour. But whenever I'm in bed it's like curiosity gets the better out of me. I start flipping the channels to see if there's something better on and all of a sudden it's 03:00.
- Read a really boring book. I allways have a Franz Kafka book in my crewbag. I never seem to get past the second chapter.
/LnS
- Get some excercise each day. Even in a cramped hotel-room you can get your heart rate up and make yourself tired. Crunches, push-ups, squats etc.
If you manage to make yourself physically tired, you will sleep better.
- Go to bed before it's to late. When I start yawning I know it's time. Be quick about it aswell, don't let the sleeptrain pass. You will be even more tired when the next "train" comes 3-4 hours later and by then you might be so tired you might not get any sleep that night. It takes energy to go to sleep. If you're too tired, you simply won't have any control over it.
- Don't watch the telly. It's amazing. I've never seen a lord of the rings film without dozing off after the first half hour. But whenever I'm in bed it's like curiosity gets the better out of me. I start flipping the channels to see if there's something better on and all of a sudden it's 03:00.
- Read a really boring book. I allways have a Franz Kafka book in my crewbag. I never seem to get past the second chapter.
/LnS
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Well, back to the vet tomorrow.
Down to 2 hours sleep (average) per day.
Zolp does diddly, and neither does Seroxat. Time to change, as they say.
Wish me luck, because it's bad when alcofrol don't make you sleep........
Down to 2 hours sleep (average) per day.
Zolp does diddly, and neither does Seroxat. Time to change, as they say.
Wish me luck, because it's bad when alcofrol don't make you sleep........
Psychophysiological entity
Yes indeed, good luck. Insomnia is bloody awful.
However, I find it strange that you're not getting some results from Zolpidem...or is the short sleep as a result of taking it? I've taken it for years, and until recently it worked like magic...could it be that your prescription is of the slower - anti crime - verity?
A pattern for me was dictated by back pain. A typical week was zero - 5 mg a night. Perhaps as much as 35mg in a bad week.
How much are you taking?
Mine is labeled Zolpidem Tartrate 10mg, and I break that in half and often bite about half of that off. So, say 3ish mg. A bad night, and I take the remainder if I wake after 2 or 3 hours. I would never take the whole 10mg.
I've been watching physics lectures lately, and I think not taking the stuff has just given back that edge that was getting lost. Hard to tell accurately.
My system of constructed pleasant thoughts was working well, but then one night last week, after 5 hours of turmoil, I succumbed, but it was effective in about 20 mins. For this not to work at all is a bit puzzling, could you possibly ask for a different manufacturer's product?
However, I find it strange that you're not getting some results from Zolpidem...or is the short sleep as a result of taking it? I've taken it for years, and until recently it worked like magic...could it be that your prescription is of the slower - anti crime - verity?
A pattern for me was dictated by back pain. A typical week was zero - 5 mg a night. Perhaps as much as 35mg in a bad week.
How much are you taking?
Mine is labeled Zolpidem Tartrate 10mg, and I break that in half and often bite about half of that off. So, say 3ish mg. A bad night, and I take the remainder if I wake after 2 or 3 hours. I would never take the whole 10mg.
I've been watching physics lectures lately, and I think not taking the stuff has just given back that edge that was getting lost. Hard to tell accurately.
My system of constructed pleasant thoughts was working well, but then one night last week, after 5 hours of turmoil, I succumbed, but it was effective in about 20 mins. For this not to work at all is a bit puzzling, could you possibly ask for a different manufacturer's product?