:(

[2close]

It's very similar to the case where an otherwise fine candidate was turned away because he was too tall for fast jets, but not too tall for other aircraft. Where's the sense in that?

Whilst overall height is a factor, the main reason for taller persons being turned down for fast jet aircrew is due to the length of the thigh from the buttocks to the knee.

The reason for this is that the cockpit environment is quite restricted and long thighs could extend the knees beneath the instrument panel. Ejecting from a fast jet in such circumstances would probably result in a searing pain just above the knees, followed by a dramatic reduction in height; seriously though, it would have fatal consequences.

I wouldn't think it would be practical to consider changing the design of military strike aircraft to accommodate taller persons..or would it? Any ideas?

This is the simple explanation - I'm sure there are those far more qualified than I to give an in depth version, if required.

[Spiderman29]

No no, that wasn't my point at all. I understand that
I mean, he was suitable to fly helicopters and large aircraft - that would have been fine, but because he was unsuitable for fast jet aircraft, he was turned away completely.

[papercut]

I expect this is not what you want to hear but a quick look in AP1269a (the RAF manual of medical fitness) will tell you that your history of epilepsy will disbar you and a history of laser eye surgery will also disbar you.

I'm also sorry to say that the attitude that rules can be ignored because you feel they are petty will also disbar you from being a RAF officer, and probably an airman.

To fly high performance aircraft like Eurofighter requires 100% fitness, the edge of the human performance envelope is not a place to be if you have a history of fits, however they may have been caused. We also require 100% integrity in what is after-all a military environment.

Best wishes for the future

[Spiderman29]

Referring purely to the integrity thing here, I do take objection to the suggestion that blindly following silly rules that affect other people to virtually no extent, yet ruin your life, can be counted as integrity. It's about as integral as committing ritual suicide in the name of honour. Speaking purely about the eyesight here, to cite a similar example, how about if you desperately wanted to be a pilot, but you had an extremely mild form of colourblindness. This extremely mild form manifests itself only when extremely similar colours are concerned - like, you can't tell the difference between brown and dark green except when the colours are side-by-side. You know damn well that this is never going to influence your ability to do your job in the slightest, but at the same time, you also know damn well they will write you off in an instant if you tell them. Would you willingly declare this? I highly doubt it, and it wouldn't make you any less a good person if you didn't.
I see the fact that these very people at the top who make up these utterly discriminatory regulations are willing to send hundreds of soldiers to die for US corporate interests under a web of complete fabrication a much greater display of a lack of integrity...one I think is deserving of the death penalty, but that's a subject for another day. They obviously don't care about the citizens of their country who have their dreams smashed and lives ruined because they had LASIK done or have to wear glasses, so I see no reason why these citizens should care about following those pointless rules - it's easy to sit on that side of the fence, in the ahh nevermind, it works for us so nevermind camp, when it doesn't affect you, but when it does you really FEEL and know how utterly unfair it is. It's pure bueuracracy. I really see no argument at all with any weight to it ("because we can" does not cut it) that can justify barring people who've had laser surgery or who wear glasses from being pilots, and I've never, ever spoken to anyone else who believes it is okay.
In the same light, would you refuse to download a simpsons episode that you'd seen 10 times on TV anyway, under the pretense that it's illegal? Or use a nocd crack for a game you legitimately own and paid £30 for so that you don't have to keep the disc permanently at hand - that's illegal too, but there's nothing wrong with it. Obeying those two laws religiously is more akin to being a goody two-shoes than it is to having integrity.
Don't get me wrong, I genuinely do appreciate the support/advice/time you guys have given me, but I'm almost (but not quite) insulted about being accused of having a lack of integrity over that, because that's really not the case at all. Resigning yourself to a **** life you'll never be happy with over something so stupid as a pair of glasses - something that will have no discernible effect on anyone else - is not much of an option.

PS. if you are a pilot, and I assume you are, you're very lucky and I envy you very, very much. Wish I was one of you every single hour of every single day of my life.

[R T Jones]

mmm. spiderman you say you do not enjoy fixing and building things. Dont hold me to this but isnt having good problem solving skills an essential part of being a pilot. personally there is nothing better than working at a maths question for 20 mins and finnaly solving it. maybe others are right, maybe take an apptitude test as well? that may give you more of an insight into your suitability. as you may see my spelling is pretty appauling and i wanna be a pilot as well. i dont know if that would hold me back but hey i can only find out. anyway good luck in what ever you do choose to do.

EDIT: In refrece to colour difficency, that will be picked up when you do your class 1 meical. the caa do a lantern test which im proud do say despite my very very slight colour difficency between red and green of all colours, i managed to pass it. (the lantern test that is)

[Spiderman29]

Nah, I mean in more of a mechanical sense. I don't mind theoretical problem solving, I like that. But you should try and see me build a bike, I got a mail order bike right, needed to attach the saddle, front wheel and handlebars. I adjusted the V-brakes so badly that I went over a tiny bump in the road, front brakes jammed I and hit the deck lol. Happened at 20mph or so on a London road: make sure you ALWAYS wear a helmet when you go cycling, not enough people seem to sadly. I probably wouldn't be here now if I hadn't done so, but I escaped with some mild cuts (okay, they were pretty painful wounds, but they weren't life theatening or anything ) and a mild concussion for 48 hours or so. I can see it now...the engines on the Eurofighter explode because I get near them. *shudder*
"You see that plane taking off?" "Yeah" "I took a bolt out and forgot to put it back" "Uh-oh" *boom*
Just can't stand mechanical stuff, drives me up the wall; I think I should have been a woman or something.

I don't think your spelling will make a great deal of difference, the aptitude test they give you is more concerned with verbal reasoning and mental arithmetic and such. Not sure if you have to write an essay too, I know you do to be a Royal Marines officer; but I think if you can express yourself well in an interview, they wouldn't care too much. I don't know about you but I don't relate spelling to intelligence in any great way. Your spelling isn't that bad anyway, it's fine!

Nice one on passing the medical =) I really hope you get your wish. Read around on the net, if you dig up enough stuff you can find things that will put you ahead of other less-well prepared people. (Turn up to the AFCO in a suit and tie when you first go there, do a lot of research on current affairs and the military for your interview, practice speed/distance/time calculations for the aptitude test, stuff like that and plenty more).

[Maximum]

Spiderman, first of all, I understand where you're coming from, but can I suggest you take time out to look at things from another angle?

You are convinced you want to be a fast-jet pilot. I'm not questioning your desire, but I think you should.

Be devil's advocate with yourself and make a list of all the reasons that make being a fast-jet pilot so attractive to you.

Now are they based on fact or fantasy? Be as honest with yourself as you can.

Perhaps you find your reasons are totally realistic - well, have you done anything about getting up in the air in any capacity? Gliding is the first thing that springs to mind.

You say you can't stand mechanical stuff - to me that seems very odd for someone who wants to fly. I'm not saying every pilot is into engineering, and some of the best actually have a leaning towards the arts, but the vast majority do have some interest in how things work!

Might I also remind you that the purpose of being a fast-jet pilot is ultimately to deliver your weapons to the assigned target if called upon to do so. This means killing. It could mean you killing and maiming, and inflicting agonising pain on men, women, children, babies, animals. This is not a judgemental statement, just a statement of fact. How do you feel about this?

So I ask you to question your own motivation.

It may be after consideration that your motivation is as strong as ever.

But remember - it's often easier to focus all your energies on something you know in your heart of hearts that you're not going to do, than to start right now getting on with the rest of your life.

Apart from all that, if you're still hooked on flying, for goodness sake get yourself up into the air and your hands on the controls in some shape or form.

[Spiderman29]

Mmm, it's not that I don't have an interest in how it works, I just don't care to get too involved with it. I find the machines themselves fascinating, but I'd rather leave the technical problems I find insanely frustrating to someone else.
It's a multitude of reasons really. Firstly and obviously, it's the flying - can't imagine anything more amazing ( bar being an astronaut, but like that's ever gonna happen haha ). Second it's the teamwork - being part of a cohesive unit and a uniform, I really like that. I like to have close friends, rather than a bunch of mates you just do stuff with but are not that close to - no better place for that than the military.
I would like to have all my interests under one roof - so at an air force base, I can do my job, but I can also join the badminton club, and the skydiving club, and the gliding club, and so forth. It's all part of my life. I want to live one big life, rather than a work and a home life, if you catch my drift. It's all one.
Wanting to be something amazing also does factor in the equation I have to admit - when I'm old and grey, I want to look back and be able to say, I really made something of myself there, and I did something few others could, I was the best.
It's the whole thing, the flying, the uniform, the friends, I see it as my destiny. I know that sounds ridiculous given my circumstances, but I've had years to think and I can't imagine myself in any other position. Being paid to fly aircraft so awesome, and so expensive, that most people aren't allowed to even get in one, every day of my life - can there be anything cooler?
As it happens I like things in my life to have a purpose, so although it is not all fun and games and a stressful job at times as I am aware, rather than pointlessly flying around for the sake of it, I would be constantly improving, working towards a milestone, a goal, I would like that.
I am quite aware of the killing aspect yes, I have had more than enough time to ponder it. It's not something I relish - I have had the occasional bad dream about it actually - but at the end of the day, I would only be replacing someone else doing the exact same job so ultimately, any objections would be selfish, based on my conscience alone ( philosophical I know, but psychology IS an interest of mine ). I would have less ethical problems being a fighter pilot, IE. air-to-air, as every person in those aircraft knows what they are getting into, and they all know it's part of the job, so ultimately anyone who gets killed in combat in a fast jet aircraft brought it upon themselves (cruel as that sounds, I feel that it is true to an extent). If by some miracle it ever did happen, I'd press to get myself put in an air-to-air role. In the Falklands for example, it was tragic, it really was, but every Argentinian pilot who got killed knew that was a risk of the job. In a surreal way, it's like a big boys game. Though I must stress that I do think war is so insane that it gives you a headache trying to comprehend it, and it is the most vile of human acts, at the end of the day, I will never be able to stop war, and by participating in it at the pawn level, I am not doing any harm to society as a whole. You see where I'm coming from?
Flying is just too damn expensive for a college student to do for fun. I used to be in the air cadets a few years back before the **** hit the fan, so I did have some great experiences Went in a bulldog a couple of times, a Vigilant a couple of times and a Chinook from Odiham...I remember that vividly. We played Ludo in the waiting room, hehe. I got the best seat in the heli, facing the hatch, I remember thinking how cool it was when we turned and I was directly facing the ground, but instead of falling out I was pushed into my seat physics for ya. Sadly I left slightly too early to go in a Tutor
Those were good times though, definitely.
I'm going to get a motorbike, my parents are really good to me actually, they will fund that for me (running costs aside), I really can't complain about them, they rock. It's the second best thing to flying, awesome fun but the line has to be drawn at flying. The bike has a practical use, so the expense has a justification...but the pleasure flying will have to wait until I'm earning. I sent a lengthy email to the UAS attached to the university I intend to go to, but they never replied, bah. They probably laughed reading it.
At some point I do want to be part of a skydiving group/team, or get into aerobatic flying somehow, although I don't know how I would go about that.

Originally Posted by Maximum

But remember - it's often easier to focus all your energies on something you know in your heart of hearts that you're not going to do, than to start right now getting on with the rest of your life.

Edit: pfft, no quote tags

'tis true. That's my problem. I just cannot get on with my life, I can't let it go, it's damn near impossible.

[R T Jones]

I do aggree with Maximum on that quote, it is easy because you really do know it wont happen, its almost like a dream. I dont want to totaly blow you out but being an airline pilot and being an raf pilot is a tottaly differnt ball game. You have to be able to perform at the edge of the human envelope. you have gotta be the best of the best. It is obvious you have had alot to deal with in your life and alot of time to think about it. But i would seriously consider moving on with your life. The longer you mull around with this flying thing the worse it will be. who knows if i could actully carry out my own advice but i think it is the right advice. just out of curosity, what exatuly brings on your fits. If you know that is, of course feel free not to answer as that is quite a personal question

[Spiderman29]

I sort of know, but I try to not know, like, think it might, if you see what I'm saying. I'm probably even less likely to become an airline pilot, as you are responsible for many more lives...which is okay by me, as it's not a job I'd want to do. Saying that, the pilot with no legs...
A history of seizures isn't going to hinder me more flying a Eurofighter than it would a 747 though, it's just there, in the background. If they're gone, they're gone, they're gone, it's just a document. Incidentally nothing brings (brought) them on, noone ever knew the cause and there was never a reason - they just happened.

[R T Jones]

i obviously have no idea how you cope with this but i know i would find it awful. I am still young and there is plenty of time for bad luck to work its thing on me. So i just gotta do my best and hope i get that bit of luck, like many have said avaiation is not jus about how good u r. its about luck as well

[Spiderman29]

Yeah it's damn hard alright.
How old are you? It's not likely to, the majority of people are still in good health (well, within our society anyway). Think positive.
That's what I try to do anyway, as long as I'm active I'm okay. It's when I've got nothing to do I muse over it and then it gets bad.
The same could be said for not getting your hopes up though but who knows? You have to have pretty bad luck to get what I have, I'm sure you'll be just fine.

[R T Jones]

i am a defniate beliver in not tempting fate, as it has a nasty way to byte you in the ass if u dangle it over a pack of wolves. im 16 btw.

[2close]

Incidentally nothing brings (brought) them on, noone ever knew the cause and there was never a reason - they just happened.

This would go against you more than knowing the cause.

If the cause is known, the potential exists to do something about it.

If the cause is not known then there is nothing to say that the trigger, which may be a very seldom experienced factor, could occur at any time, including racing along at 600 Kts 200' AGL.

I wouldn't be too happy riding shotgun for someone with a history of seizures, the cause of which had not been identified and controlled. Similarly, I wouldn't be at all happy knowing that the aircraft whizzing along in 'my' Class G airspace or even flying in the vicinity of my house is being flown by someone in those circumstances.

As I stated earlier (and I have been following this thread with interest), you need to get the cause established beyond any doubt whatsoever and clearly and throughly documented. If the CAA Medical Branch then state you meet the criteria for Cl.1 Medical issue, then go to the RAF - you may need to go through the hoops again with the RAF's designated specialists but if the original investigations have been done thoroughly and properly there is no reason why the results wouldn't be the same second time around. Personally, I would write my cheque for £ 422 out to the CAA, have the Cl.1 Medical and find out exactly what the Status Quo is and what needs to be investigated further.

I'm not saying that you have to accept my advice or even that my advice is correct, that's your choice, but if you do not accept that your only realistic course of action is to get off your butt and do something constructive (and that is not meant as a dig at you )then you had better get around to accepting that you are going nowhere with your dream and start attending your local AEC plumbing classes.

HTH and Best of Luck (But please GET ON WITH IT!)

2close

[R T Jones]

I actully hadnt thought of that, of course if the causes are not known it is much more dangerous for your self and others. I would definatly follow 2close's advce and get the causes found out.

[Spiderman29]

Mm, you're 16, you're on the road to clean sailing. Just get your A-levels, with good grades, and do as much research on the process and requirements and such as you can.

Thing is about the cause; I have what's called "idiopathic" epilepsy - there is no known cause. The medical knowledge just doesn't exist to detemine that yet, it's the same for most people with epilepsy, a mystery. The seizures appear to be completely random - although this medication has stopped them from happening, and hopefully I will come off it and they will remain gone. As far as I recall, the last EEG I had was completely normal. It never used to be.

The only thing that we have found to influence it is when I have a temperature/fever - made it more likely. Also, in one particularly curious incident, I'm scared ****less of blood tests like I think I said earlier, I was in an epilepsy hospital (nice place actually) and had to have a blood test done at 7:30am, before I'd had my medication. I felt like I was going to faint, but instead of fainting I had a seizure. Never had anything like that before, it was really weird - and that was the last seizure I ever had.

I used to have it really seriously, anywhere from a seizure every day to every week, and they would usually knock me out for the count for 3 days - terrible migraine, bedbound, etc. It was terrible. I now live an entirely normal life, bar the fact that I have to take tablets every day and I can't drink alcohol cos the meds affect my liver and it gives me horrible stomachache - but I hate the stuff anyway so I don't care. So it looks promising I have to say.

The class 1 medical involves eyesight right? I can't have that go on record if I have any chance at all, which is the only problem. I was figuring it might be a wiser idea to wait until I'm 21, in which case I will have been off the medication for a while, and can have laser surgery. Then I can go and get the medical. What do you think?

[R T Jones]

Well as someone has mentioned before you cannot join the RAF if you have had laser surgerey. How strong are your glasses anyway? 20/20 is perfect what are your eyes at? I also wear glasses already , but they are to stop my eyes straining when looking at small font. For example if i used the computer for an hour my eyes would begin to ach. I can still read things at a distance, but if they are small my eyes strain. So the glasses remove the strain, i assume this isnt a problem, of course if it is someone please tell me now!

[Blinkz]

Spiderman,
I know how you feel. For as long as I know I've wanted to be a pilot, however at the age of 16 I was shot down by the RAF because to be a pilot you need to have perfect colourvision and nearly perfect vision. I am both short-sighted and slightly colourblind. Obviously I was devestated. However I just put it aside as much as I could, concetrated on A levels and went to uni.

With my love of flying still very much alive, but with acceptance that I would never make a career of it I joined the uni gliding club and had lots of fun flying around. A year and a half ago one of the airline pilots who also glides told me that the civillian medical requirements were quite abit less then the RAF and that I might have a look.

A year and a half later I am now the proud owner of a class 1 medical. However it really wasn't an easy ride. I failed the colourvision tests at Gatwick. I took a different test in Germany and passed this. I then managed to get the CAA to accept a german medical. My dream can now finally start. When I failed the first colour test at Gatwick I just cannot describe how bad I felt. I had spent 6 years burying my desire to be a career pilot to have them re-kindled and to burn even brighter just to have them wiped out again. I sat outside the CAA building for 2 and half hours just not knowing what to do.

I have heard about people who learn the ishara plates to try and get a medical, this I just find absoloutly disgusting. I more then most people know how hard it is to not have a medical. This however NEVER justifies lying.

I really do feel for you. It is one of the most painful feelings to have all your hopes in the world to be destroyed. However there are REASONs for the rules that govern flying and most of them are there for a very good reason. 2close explains this well. It is not just your life that you are risking, it is the hundreds that you could potentially carry on your plane and the many hundreds on the ground that could be killed if you had a problem while on the flight deck.

Yes I know the rules are far from perfect, and alot of them seem stupidly strict/pointless but they are there to protect people in the best way they can.

In your case I think it is very safe to say that you have absolutly NO chance of joining the RAF as aircrew. For this I am very sorry and feel for you. At present I also think it is exremely unlikely that you will gain a class 1 medical either. All you can do is talk to the CAA and try and do the best you can. That is all any of us can do. Try your best and do everything you can do achieve your goal, but never forget that rules are usually there for a reason, and by all means question them but don't break them because you *think* you know better.

I wish you all the best and hope that one day you will achieve your dream.

[R T Jones]

hey Blitz, did you take the lantern test at Gatwick? and which colours do u have difficulty making out? I sometimes find the green and white lights look similar but not the same. Be intrested to know how many differnt tests they have at Gatwick

[Blinkz]

RT, try and keep the colourvision questions to the colourvision thread. this thread is for something different. I've answered your question there.