Eyesight regulations CONDEMMED!

[VS773ER]

Hi Everyone,

Now for some expert advice. Last weekend I attended the seminar at Cabair with an interest to gaining my CPL. I have had training flights for my PPL license and am hoping to gain that early next year as soon as funds allow. After the seminar one of the tutors made me aware of the eyesight regs - and on Monday my fears where confirmed by my optician!

The truth is, like everyone on this page, I desperatley want to fly for a living!

My prob is that my eyesight is too bad for the CAA and JAA regulations. I have an astigmatism and appaarently that just isnt allowed under any circumstances. Before I pay £400 for a Class one med, i'd love any info you guys/gals could give me on other ways - other countries, with more leaniant regs on eyesight. Or indeed any oother routes to becomming a reward making pilot without the same strict regs.

I am somewhat niave as i've only recently adopted the urge to actually climb this mountain and have my heart set on it!

I could bore anyone with my prescription if need be! But any ionfo would be great.

Regards
Dan

[redsnail]

Who told you that astigmatism wasn't allowed? I have astigmatism and I hold a JAA Class 1 medical. I am also cross eyed and mildly short sighted. I have to wear specs to fly. The main thing is can your astigmatism be corrected with spectacles?

If you are really concerned, speak to the CAA medical branch directly. They're the ones that say yay or nay, no one else. I believe if you think you may miss out, you can do the eye test first and they won't charge you the full fee for the medical.

You could print out the JAA requirements and see if they match up, or ask the optician to test specifically for the items.

Australia's eye standards are much more reasonable. Just ask any one who's colour blind.

Second thoughts, just speak to the CAA's medical branch. Tell them your script and they should be able to advise you.

[VS773ER]

I was told by my optician (non CAA registered!) Young guy, but he made it clear after I showed him the JAA Specifications.

I'm lead by anyone with more knowledge than me.

Thanks for your help - i'll dig out the CAA's medical number, I take it the Gatwick med centre is the correct place.

Thanks.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Do exactly as Redsnail suggest's,get in contact witht he CAA medical branch directly.Send them in you opticians report.

My own personal story is one of eyesight problems too.My figures from memory was LEFT -3.75 RIGHT -5.25 dioptres.In effect after speaking to a AME he said it was my right eye failing the initial class 1 limits.However upon reading through the CAA eyeight requirements they do state
"if your eyesight is within the renewal/revalidation standards get in touch!"

Therefore I duely got in contact and after some lengthy correspondence back and forth between me and the CAA they have given me a medical deviation for the distance vision.And as such next week I have my Initial Class 1 medical and assumming everything else with me is fine then I'd be issued with a Class1 with deviation.This would entitle me to have the medical,do my training and upon completion of my training the deviation would be lifted.I myself have an astigmatism so maybe you should look into this.If its too bad I know my eyesight was perfectly well and good for the FAA licence and was my back-up plan.



Hope all goes well

Regards

[Half a Mexican]

Hi VS773ER,

Astigmatism is allowed as long as it does not exceed 2.00 dioptres.
The following link gives the visual standards required for a JAR Class 1 initial examination:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

Cheers
HaM

[VS773ER]

I've just got the telephone with aviation house,

The lady did state there is a 'deviation' rule applying for people with astigmatism's and other problems.

I have to get my optician and file a report which is my last ditch effort (pardon the pun!).

Thanks for all your help - if anyone can shed any light on the FAA's rules, that'll help me plan route 'B'!

Regards
Dan

[EGAC_Ramper]

First bit of advice with regards to the opticians report that annoyed me.Is that initially they asked me for 1 report.So duely sent it inn then recieved a phone call 3 weeks later saying they needed 3 opticians reports.So if you do send them reports send them 3 years reports straight away and save yourself some time and agony for the reply!!

As for the FAA ceck out their website and once again print of their requirements and get them checked out with regards to your eyesight prescription.


Regards

[VS773ER]

THANKS

EGAC_Ramper

Thanks loads. Managed to gain all the reports I needed from the last 4 years. My Astigmantism is -5.50 in my left so am pushing my luck but its worth the last bit of effort1

Thanks again.
Dan

[EGAC_Ramper]

Good Luck!! Was in your shoes so know what it is like.

Keep me posted on how things go for you!!

[scroggs]

While it may be that you have been the subject of an over-enthusiastic interpretation of the rules, your last post suggests that you are actually well outside the allowable limits for astigmatism.

I don't want to rub salt in the wound, but surely you do understand that eyesight is one of the most important physical attributes of a pilot? The limits these days are very generous, thanks to the technology available in corrective spectacles - even laser surgery is allowable with certain constraints - but limits there must be. Being a pilot is not a 'right', it is something you must qualify for so that your employers, passengers and YOU can be sure you are up to the job when the chips are down. Of necessity, some of the required qualifications are beyond your capability to influence.

Scroggs

[Lionel Hutz]

The FAA regs are straight forward.

You need 20/20 vision in each eye.

Glasses and contact lenses are allowed, with one exception Varifocal contact lenses or wearing one contact lens with an asymetric correction for reading are prohibited.

They dont care how thick your lenses are or how much astigmatism you have.

If you get an FAA First Class medical then you can convert it to a CAA medical if you meet the renewal standards for a CAA medical.



Incidentally there is no such thing as an initial FAA medical, each medical exam is to the same standards.

Waivers are easy to come by for most static defects, ie Monocularity, Colour vision etc.

[VS773ER]

Understood.

I far from feel that i'm am owed the opportunity. And consider safety first, for me, passengers and employers.

As the statistics say its safer to be aboad a plane that in a car... surely that must mean the eyesight regulations for a driving license should be more regulated than that of a commercial airline pilot?

When the 'chips' are down a pilot with corrected/aided vision is no more inadequate than a pilot with grade A vision. (As long as he/she has a spare pair of specs!)

Fatigue in the eyes of a able visioned person is just as dangerous and more common - medically proven.

[Bird Strike]

The trouble is that the fatigued eyes of the non-perfectly visioned people are worse than the fatigued eyes of an able-visioned person.

Unfortunately your astigmatism is substantially above the Class 2 limit (3 dioptres) too
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

Disappointments do happen, and I do sympathise with you, but I have to say that criticising the medical standards without presenting solid arguments won't get you anywhere. Put your energy into something constructive like gaining an NPPL which I believe you would be able to if you are medically fit enough to drive a car. (But don't quote me on this, I'm not in the UK and don't know much about it.)

[VS773ER]

Hmmmmm

You'll find no criticising going on here. Thank you for taking time out of your no doubt, busy schedule to reply to the post, you and 'sproggs' will find that advice was my only request.

I'm sure some of you might find in necessary to quosh any attemp to allow people into the industry that don't meet the 'calibre' of old - but the reality is I too wouldn't consider this line of work if I knew I was a risk to ANYONE. Bad eyesight doesn't mean I have bad JUDGEMENT.

Thanks for the info. But please, no one is on a pedastal here... PPL... CPL... Whatever.

[Bird Strike]

Nobody said that you had a poor judgement. No-one said you would be unsafe to fly. What some have said is that the regulations are regulations, and we have to fall within the given medical standards whether we like it or not, if we want to fly.

Scroggs and I were just saying that your astigmatism is unfortunately too far above the limit, from what you said in an earlier post. I do not see why you should attempt to offend him by calling him "sproggs", which I assume was deliberate. If not, I withdraw this criticism and apologise.

You wrote "As the statistics say its safer to be aboad a plane that in a car... surely that must mean the eyesight regulations for a driving license should be more regulated than that of a commercial airline pilot?". I interpreted this and "Fatigue in the eyes of a able visioned person is just as dangerous and more common - medically proven." as a criticism of, or a complaint regarding, the imposition of eyesight standards upon pilots.

I am certainly not trying to quosh any attempt to allow people into the industry that don't meet the 'calibre' of old (in fact I am quite against some of the medical standards imposed upon pilots). I do not believe Scroggs was, either. There is no elitist mentality going on here, if that is what you are implying.

My post was merely an attempt to pass on the information regarding the Class 2 medical standards (private level), possibility of NPPL and also to say that your comments regarding the eyesight regulations are not really valid and that the energy would be better spent pursuing something more realistically achievable, such as an NPPL.

I know that it is disappointing to find that there is a major obstacle when you have set your heart on something, but it is better to find out earlier on than when you have gone further down the road.

By all means send whatever documents you have into CAA and see what they say. Nobody is telling you not to. But basically the gist is don't get your hopes up for obtaining Class 1 if your astigmatism is so far above the limit, and if you just want to fly an airliner and do not want to fly for pleasure, you would probably like to put your flying training on hold until you hear back from them. If you love flying for the sake of flying, then there is NPPL as well as microlight flying, gliding etc that you can do without having meet the Class 2 standards, and you would probably like to look into them.

FYI the renewal limit for astigmatism for Class 1 is 3 dioptres.
For Class 2, it says the astigmatism may go beyond 3 dioptres (CAA's site only says MAY so that is quite vague as to how far they permit). If you get an FAA PPL for instance, they will use the report from your last foreign medical and assess it and will issue you a Class 2 if it is satisfactory. Not sure if they will apply the initial or renewal standards for that. Check with CAA about this. But remember Class 2 is only for flying as a PPL and so it might not meet your requirement.

[AIRWAY]

Sometimes the truth is hard to accept...

[MercenaryAli]

Poorly sighted person(s)

In much the same way that if I were having a triple heart bypass operation I should rather like to be operated on by a surgeon with first class eyesight and preferably many years of surgical experience when I go as a passenger in a civil aircraft I should like to think that the pilot can see well and is well trained!
Sadly we live in a rather strange world where people just cannot seem to accept that there really are limiations and there have to be standards WITHOUT exception! Sorry my friend if you cannot see - try another profession. I am told Law is a good alternative.

[redsnail]

Ok, firstly, speak to the CAA, find out exactly what they say. If you must, go and see them before writing off the JAR ATPL (at this point in time).
It is worth spending the money.

Let's assume they say the worst, not good enough for initial Class 1 ATPL. Ask if it's good enough for a renewal or would they consider reviewing your case IF you had eg 1,000 hours flying experience with no problems. If they say yes, now you can formulate a plan.

If they agree to consider you with X amount of hours, tootle off to the States and work over there for a year or so. It'll be good for you any way and you'll get some good flying experience.

Unfortunately, if the CAA say no to all of the above, see if you can fly for fun and go find a well paid job and laugh at us having to work Xmas day and in really ugly weather.

Good luck.

[Bird Strike]

MercenaryAli, no need to be that harsh, he may be perfectly well be able to see, just that his sight without correction is said to be outside the CAA's limit, and they are fairly strict with this stuff.

[crazypilot]

I am sort of in the same boat as you I believe, although not entirely sure who is in the better position.

My last eye test (in April) showed that my prescription is around -5.25 and also -1.75 astigmatism. The CAA add these two figures together so I am technically over the -5 limitation for Class 1 initial (since I am -7 total). However, I have held a PPL since I was 18 (4 years ago) and got a Class 2 at the time. I've always wanted to be a commercial pilot, but figured that I couldn't be one (back when I was 18 as the limit in those days was -3 dioptres TOTAL) and so have now taken a different career path (still in the airline industry though). I'm now sticking to the management side of the industry and flying for fun...at Cranfield incidently - may have even saw you in the Library if you were up for the CABAIR briiefing) Just for curiosity, I recently got in contact with the CAA and this is what they said:

"In reply to your e mail requesting information on achieving JAA class 1 medical certification. You may be able to achieve a JAA class 1 with a deviation if your eye sight is within the renewal standards. However before we can confirm this you need to submit an up to date spectacle prescription and one from 3 years ago. The deviation route for pilots who hold a PPL(A) licence involves attending Aviation House for a JAA class 1 eye first initial examination. If the applicant is successful then they will receive a JAA class 1 medical certificate with a deviation. This permits the pilot to undertake professional flying training and on successful completion of the course the deviation will be lifted."

So this is what you have to do. I think I will give it a miss now.

The reason why....if you were at the CABAIR do last week, I take it you are not that old (early-mid 20s perhaps too??). You have to remember that in being a commercial pilot, your health and fitness is constantly monitored and the renewal limit for Class 1 is -8 dioptres for myopia (-3 for astigmatism). Suppose you were to go over this (and indeed your eyesight probably will get worse) --- I'm just saying you need to consider this, you may find that you get through this time only to find that a few years later on they take it away from you and then you'll be in a worse state.

My advice --- check it out with the CAA, if they can give you a Class 1, great, but also look at it in the long-run.

CP

---Modified to make sense----