777-200 Asiana Crash a SFO
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Ho appreso anche io poco fa...
meno male che sono sopravvissuti tutti!
io sono in italia da 3 gg.
Speriamo di sapere presto la causa di quanto accaduto!
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Nella sezione internazionale si sono già venute a creare due scuole di pensiero: chi vede analogie col BA38 (nonostante sia già stato fatto notare che Asiana monta i PW e che le condizioni meteorologiche erano ben diverse) e chi invece dà più credito all'errore umano, con particolare riferimento ad una non adeguata attitudine dei piloti coreani al volo manuale (nonostante non si sappia ancora di eventuali anomalie tecniche).
A essere sincero, senza avanzare ipotesi, di analogie ne vedo più col 737 a Bali, con la differenza che in questo caso le condizioni meteo sembrerebbero decisamente migliori.
Aviation Herald ha aggiunto che:
"Emergency services reported all occupants have been accounted for and are alive. Emergency services repeated ALL occupants have been accounted for in response to media reports that two people have been killed and said, these reports are untrue. A number of people were taken to hospitals with injuries of varying degrees.
The General hospital in San Francisco reported they received 10 passengers from the flight OZ-214, 8 adults and 2 children, all in critical condition."
A essere sincero, senza avanzare ipotesi, di analogie ne vedo più col 737 a Bali, con la differenza che in questo caso le condizioni meteo sembrerebbero decisamente migliori.
Aviation Herald ha aggiunto che:
"Emergency services reported all occupants have been accounted for and are alive. Emergency services repeated ALL occupants have been accounted for in response to media reports that two people have been killed and said, these reports are untrue. A number of people were taken to hospitals with injuries of varying degrees.
The General hospital in San Francisco reported they received 10 passengers from the flight OZ-214, 8 adults and 2 children, all in critical condition."
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Le comunicazioni radio tra la torre e Air Asiana prima del crash
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Purtroppo ci sono state due vittime: due ragazzine cinesi. Inoltre ci sono 10 feriti critici di cui due bambini e 38 feriti gravi stando ad AvHerald.
Accident: Asiana B772 at San Francisco on Jul 6th 2013, touched down short of the runway, broke up and burst into flames
Accident: Asiana B772 at San Francisco on Jul 6th 2013, touched down short of the runway, broke up and burst into flames
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Conoscete Alan Carter, il comandante del volo Virgin Atlantic 19 da Heathrow a SFO? Mi riferisco a quel video documentario di ITTV.
Bene, questo è il suo stato di qualche ora fa dal suo profilo Facebook:
Bene, questo è il suo stato di qualche ora fa dal suo profilo Facebook:
It has been said that some pilots with 10,000 hours only have a 1,000 hours......but ten times! I hope that makes sense.
Also, one Asian carrier I worked with tried to integrate cabin-crew and pilots on their CRM courses....or as they called it 'Error Management Courses'. I noticed that there were no pursers on the course, when I queried this I was told that pursers don't need CRM....such was their power in the company!
One of my colleagues for the same Asian carrier told me a story about one of his simulator check rides....and I quote!
"When conducting an ILS approach he wasn't happy that he was completely stabilised so elected to make a go-around and come back for another approach, this time fully stabilised and landed......When queried by his 'local' simulator instructor as to why, he was met with the following statement.......'Do you know the difference between a local pilot and a foreign (ie ex-pat) pilot......? Foreign pilot afraid to die!!!!!!
Culture can be a difficult thing to understand sometimes.......
Also, one Asian carrier I worked with tried to integrate cabin-crew and pilots on their CRM courses....or as they called it 'Error Management Courses'. I noticed that there were no pursers on the course, when I queried this I was told that pursers don't need CRM....such was their power in the company!
One of my colleagues for the same Asian carrier told me a story about one of his simulator check rides....and I quote!
"When conducting an ILS approach he wasn't happy that he was completely stabilised so elected to make a go-around and come back for another approach, this time fully stabilised and landed......When queried by his 'local' simulator instructor as to why, he was met with the following statement.......'Do you know the difference between a local pilot and a foreign (ie ex-pat) pilot......? Foreign pilot afraid to die!!!!!!
Culture can be a difficult thing to understand sometimes.......
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Purtroppo non mi stupisce affatto che un vettore koreano, con due piloti koreani, sia arrivato unstable su un LOC (GS out) approach e abbiano stallato sulla testata pista. Come descritto nel link postato da Jack330 è principalmente un problema di cultura, molte delle compagnie asiatiche credono che il miglior pilota sia quello che sa il manuale a memoria anche se con zero skills! Per la maggior parte degli asiatici volare un visual con un widebody è qualcosa di pericoloso, quindi anche se autorizzato per un visual si vola un ILS Cat I con l'autopilot inserito fino alla minima! Sarà perchè nel loro paese chi sbaglia paga? Piccoli errori a volte possono portare al licenziamento o addirittura al carcere!
A parte questo, c'è da notare anche un altro fattore. Ho conosciuto FO con 8000 ore di volo, delle quali la metá passate a dormire nel bunk ed il resto volando con l'autopilot, poi vengono promossi Cpt e si ritrovano a volare a mano... a SFO
Blame the pilots? No, just the truth about their culture!
A parte questo, c'è da notare anche un altro fattore. Ho conosciuto FO con 8000 ore di volo, delle quali la metá passate a dormire nel bunk ed il resto volando con l'autopilot, poi vengono promossi Cpt e si ritrovano a volare a mano... a SFO
Blame the pilots? No, just the truth about their culture!
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Email by former UAL CKA with 5 yrs training experience in Korea
L'esperienza quinquennale di un pilota americano in pensione come istruttore in Corea presso la KAL e l'Asiana. Molto interessante per spiegare l'incidente di SFO.
Oggetto: Email by former UAL CKA with 5 yrs training experience in Korea
May want to read this if you are going to the Orient and thinking of booking on Korean Air Lines or Asiana
After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the 400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, its a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.
One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.
We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.
This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Brown was.
Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested Radar Vectors to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then Cleared for the approach and he could have selected Exit Hold and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to Extend the FAF and he couldnt understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was Hold at XYZ. Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).
This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!
The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.
The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
Finally, Ill get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.
Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250 after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.
So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.
(signed)
Oggetto: Email by former UAL CKA with 5 yrs training experience in Korea
May want to read this if you are going to the Orient and thinking of booking on Korean Air Lines or Asiana
After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the 400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, its a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.
One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.
We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.
This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Brown was.
Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested Radar Vectors to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then Cleared for the approach and he could have selected Exit Hold and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to Extend the FAF and he couldnt understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was Hold at XYZ. Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).
This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!
The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.
The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!
Finally, Ill get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.
Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250 after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.
So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.
(signed)
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Tutto il mondo e' paese.
Io da ex (nel senso che ora sono "semplice pilota") istruttore di volo, con esperienza USA, sebbene limitandomi agli aerei a pistoni, ho notato questi comportamenti in veramente troppi aspiranti, e poi piloti. E non certo solo asiatici.
Non sto a dirvi i teatrini in occasione dei check.
La storia dei database esaminatori la conosco fin troppo bene.
Senza stare a far "politica" poi, la storia del troppo autopilota associata anche ad una non perfetta (potrei dire anche non sufficiente) conoscenza del sistema e' di nuovo una storia fin troppo diffusa.
Per questo spesso me ne esco con una battuta, che poi tanto battuta so che non e', del tipo: "Quando volo con certe compagnie mi tocca sempre buttare un occhio in cabina, perche' se vedo chi so io, mi tocca scendere".
Quanto hai ragione caro il mio signor Cpt UAL.
Non sto a dirvi i teatrini in occasione dei check.
La storia dei database esaminatori la conosco fin troppo bene.
Senza stare a far "politica" poi, la storia del troppo autopilota associata anche ad una non perfetta (potrei dire anche non sufficiente) conoscenza del sistema e' di nuovo una storia fin troppo diffusa.
Per questo spesso me ne esco con una battuta, che poi tanto battuta so che non e', del tipo: "Quando volo con certe compagnie mi tocca sempre buttare un occhio in cabina, perche' se vedo chi so io, mi tocca scendere".
Quanto hai ragione caro il mio signor Cpt UAL.
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Ginopino, l'email che hai postato ha anche una data? Da come mi pare di capire dal testo è successiva all'incidente in questione.
Ora dico, visto che certe situazioni sono palesi e straconosciute, i paesi aeronauticamente più avanzati hanno il diritto e anche il dovere di mettere certe compagnie nelle "black list", blasonate che siano, punto e basta. Così la smettono e si danno una svegliata, altrimenti che continuassero a solcare i loro cieli.
FB
Ora dico, visto che certe situazioni sono palesi e straconosciute, i paesi aeronauticamente più avanzati hanno il diritto e anche il dovere di mettere certe compagnie nelle "black list", blasonate che siano, punto e basta. Così la smettono e si danno una svegliata, altrimenti che continuassero a solcare i loro cieli.
FB
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Purtroppo la percentuali di expats da assumere obbligatoriamente non sono abbastanza...
Ma questo problema affligge anche le compagnie cinesi, giapponesi e tutti gli altri paesi asiatici?
Ma questo problema affligge anche le compagnie cinesi, giapponesi e tutti gli altri paesi asiatici?
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Ma il tizio in questione fa sempre l'arrogante e il maleducato e si permette di offendere gli altri dicendo che lui è un figo della madonna e un genio perchè ha trovato lavoro (come non si sa) e poi si scopre che in quella compagnia fanno delle cagate così lampanti???
Sempre detto che non bisogna mai tirarsela, soprattutto quando non ci sono ragioni per farlo...
Sempre detto che non bisogna mai tirarsela, soprattutto quando non ci sono ragioni per farlo...
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Nn penserete mica che in Europa sia diverso !!!
Anche in Italia ci sono comandanti conminuti di volo !!
Ora vediamo che effetto farà questo incidente hai burocrati
……… tutto resterà come è adesso
Anche in Italia ci sono comandanti conminuti di volo !!
Ora vediamo che effetto farà questo incidente hai burocrati
……… tutto resterà come è adesso
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Ma il tizio in questione fa sempre l'arrogante e il maleducato e si permette di offendere gli altri dicendo che lui è un figo della madonna e un genio perchè ha trovato lavoro (come non si sa) e poi si scopre che in quella compagnia fanno delle cagate così lampanti???
Sempre detto che non bisogna mai tirarsela, soprattutto quando non ci sono ragioni per farlo...
Sempre detto che non bisogna mai tirarsela, soprattutto quando non ci sono ragioni per farlo...
