highland-kilt

Isn't that just a classical response to this issue, trying to reassure yourself that spending almost £10.000 with CTC ATP scam was not a money down the drain project!

:ugh:

I think the points I raise are valid points, why all the secrecy, why not provide full disclosure of how many of their ATP pilots get permanent contract?

A friend of mine chose to go to EJ is now on $4000 a month with Lion Air, was hard in the start, and he wants to leave at one stage, but at least they provide more than a pool with no facts of how they actually are doing!

It does say a little about how desperate pilots are, to accept such scam of no promises, and also giving away £10.000 to CTC as a part of enhancing their career!

In ANY other buisness CTC would have been under scrutiny to disclose all valid information, such that the candidates can make their OWN calculated risk assessment before they part with their money.

Som can continue stick their head in the sand and believe in fairy tales, but I have seen NONE come on these forums and say they are happy after CTC ATP, still the sheep continue flocking towards the edge!

Save your money for FIC or a TR with a job!
Instead of listening to CTC ATP empty promises!

Unless they can provide proper transparency, than I can only say they are operating similar as rogue traders, preying on newbies dream of flying a jet!

I think you'd need to tone down your rhetoric, if you want anyone to perceive you as anything but a failed applicant, truckflyer. But your choice, naturally.

Most people who gain employment don't frequent these threads anymore and it is only by chance that I had a look as well. I am in no way up to date with the ATP scheme, but I went through it some 6 years ago and back then we were all placed with an airline almost immediately - within a week, in my case. Everyone on my course, the course before and the course after were placed with airlines. Mainly easyJet. I am a skipper in orange land now, so it can lead to employment. Up to date info, I can not provide.

Yes but that time was different, now they get placed in hold after cadets etc., so you have no priority!

However the success stories of the "modern" ATP are far and few in-between!.

All I am asking for is transparency, why do they want to hide the "real" figures? That's what makes you wonder.

Strong rhetoric is required to make people take a minute and think, because in aviation we get blinded by the potential of flying one of those orange jets! And reason goes out the window.

My status failed or success full candidate is irrelevant, I would NOT have taken up the course regardless, mainly because of their hollow promises!

I am questioning their business practices, tell me what other business would anybody pay £10.000 to be added to a recruitment agency?????

I am aware of a number of people who have completed this course and been offered placements with airlines.

My understanding is that successful graduates of this programme are considered for placements when there insufficient "wings cadets" to meet customer placement demand.

Over the last few years there has been generally weak demand from airlines even for the primary cadet pool. It is only recently that demand has exceeded the supply from this primary source and there has been uptake again from the supplementary pool.

I believe they make this clear on their website.

If the programme carries too much uncertainty and risk for you, then that is fine. However it certainly isn't a "scam" I suspect you are looking for guarantees that just don't exist. Demand (which is constantly variable) isn't in the gift of the FTO, it is set by the cadet requirements of the customer airlines.

As you say, spend your money elsewhere if you are unhappy with the product or any perception of the opportunities it might or might not afford. They are a business, and so are their partners. The dynamic requirements of the latter set the numbers as regards placements.

I am absolutely sure you can find a MCC/JOC course cheaper. This airline placement pool is geared primarily towards the candidates who have completed a 16 month £82,000 full time course with the FTO. The supplemental short course offers a chance for any placements that exceed the output of the full time ATPL course. It is quite right that it should.

When "Bealzebub" speaks, all the rest goes silent!

I know you as very valued poster here on PPRUNE, but in this instance you are not accepting to see the reality.

Now some would also say that Timeshare, is not a scam, however those who embark on such adventures soon discover that not all is what they have been told, or not been told!

Withholding information, is equally as scandalous as telling a lie!

The phrase, "We CTC are so great, and we all love this job, "to lure you here, and make you dream!
That you actually have more than below average chance to get a job within the next 3 - 4 years! is told, by them saying we promise you NOTHING"
Ha ha, expect when we got your money, we will charge top money for fixed base sim, let me guess, how many EZY pilots, have this as extra job? Training CTC ATP candidates?

Analyze who needs these kind projects, Sim centres, pilots who instruct, they are not going to give you an objective view, if they have interest in this.

All you need to do, is pass our "advanced selection process, that reminds you of a Commodore 64 computer game", for you who can recall what they looked like!

Smashing... forget the amateur selection procedure they use, at least use something like Swiss/Lufthansa, to split the men from the .......XX...!!!

However let's get back to the main issue, so lack of transparency, this is CTC, "we want YOUR money!", but we are promising you NOTHING!

By CTC saying this to your face, does this mean they are being honest? Or are they just circumventing the truth?
Give us previous years exact stats, why not?
When Rio Ferdinand failed to provide a doping/drugs test, as stipulated, he got banned, guilty or no guilty, the onus was that avoiding the issue is similar to a lie, failing to disclose certain questions, that are blatantly obvious, that could be verified independently!

We will NOT tell you how many other successful ATP candidates we have had, a percentage of those who paid vs those who actually got a job!

Now, if CTC was so successful, they would be putting those results up in GOLD frames, this is common business logic, who wouldn't?

For me, if somebody is on PURPOSE withholding information, that is crucial for selected the candidates, to have in hand BEFORE they decide what to do, so they can consider the PRO's and CON's of what they are going spend £10.000 on, well ANY other business, that would do the same would be a fraudulent scam, what other comparison do you have, where they would make people invest large amounts of money, and not even be able to provide them the "historical/ stats results" of the past!

If you fail to see this concept, failure to disclose such information could in some legal circles be consider as fraud!

Now if CTC ATP have 50 in the pool, to be considered a serious operation, they should disclose the true numbers of how many of them have gained permanent employment directly trough CTC.

What CTC does, is behind mirages and smokescreens, is it a business secret to tell how many of your students have gained employment, or is it BAD publicity if the numbers are very low?

Failing to disclose, indicates they have something to hide! Beazelbub, you disappoint me on this point!

Here is exactly what CTC / ATP are doing:

They are making pilots pay large amounts for a course that most already have done - MCC.
They are acting as a recruitment agency for various companies around the world, but disclosing who they have recruited, seems to be a real issue for them, why?

Raise questions, instead of looking for answers from "so called experts" here.

I did the Wings ATP selection in 2009 and was offered a place on the MCC course but it was quite easy to see through the 'sales puff' and realise that I would be spending £7000 without any immediate chance of a job.

At the very same time I was offered a place on an FR type rating course. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, or whatever the saying, and I took the FR offer. Two thousand Boeing hours later and I do not regret my decision, especially when I hear of friends who took the ATP route and spent over a year waiting, only then to get a 6 month flexi crew offer.

Having re-read your post above, I marvel at the irony!

The reality is that they are selling you a product at a specific price point. If you don't like the product or the price, then that is fine, don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you to.

Your rather rambling rant seems to be tethered to an idea that there is a promise of a permanent job attached to this course, the numbers of which they fail to disclose, thus making the whole product a "scam"?

This FTO has a number of customer airlines who from time to time and as it absolutely suits their needs, take cadets into their own specific programmes from this training source. The numbers and the opportunity events are limited and variable.

The FTO makes it clear that airline placement opportunities are generally offered to whatever "wings cadet" candidates are available at that time. Those candidates are selected from a pool (if there is one) of such candidates. These candidates can only guess (as can the FTO) how big that "pool" will be at the point of graduation. Despite projections, optimism, best guesses, and determination, it is impossible to know what the recruitment market will be at any point in the future. Nevertheless that is the reality of the marketplace.

This "add on" course (which is the final part of the wings cadets basic/intermediate training) is also available as a stand alone course to people like yourself. Successful graduates are offered the possibility of also being placed in a "pool" for airline placements. However this pool is secondary to the "wings cadet" pool, and is only ever likely to be drawn on when there are insufficient numbers of candidates in the primary pool. That is the reality!

Over the last few years the pool of primary candidates (wings cadets) has reflected the downturn of the customer airlines recruitment requirements. The waiting time in that primary pool has reached a level of one year or so at times. The candidates don't want that. The FTO doesn't want that. You can be sure the customer airlines don't want it either, but again that is the reality!

Had it not been for one large customer (easyjet,) that pool would by now resemble an ocean. Terms and conditions offered to those graduates have been discussed ad nauseum so I won't recap them. However that customer took advantage of the true state of the marketplace, and without them, there would have been almost no movement at all. That is the reality!

By the end of last year (2011) the FTO had worked to secure new customers, and more established customers also came back into the frame. In fact this happened to sufficient degree that wings cadets were finishing their instrument ratings and the next day starting their 3 week AQC courses. From these courses they were then walking seamlessly straight into airline placements. Many of these placements were on significantly better terms than "flexicrew" although that programme continues to also offer those opportunities. That is the reality!

Where the cadet pool couldn't satisfy demand, candidates were drawn from the secondary pool, and some were offered placements with the same airlines and on the same terms. Those cadets (from both source pools) are now likely (in the cases of which I am aware) to be offered permanent contracts at the end of their six month placement periods this Autumn, subject to performance. That is the reality!

Airline recruitment tends to take place so that training occurs in the quieter Winter months. Not always, but usually. For this reason it is inevitable that "holding pools" grow in the Spring/Summer period, and shrink in the Autumn/Winter. This assumes that there are significant periods of such recruitment. That is the reality!

So you want specific numbers? Well I am aware of around 10% of this years intake coming from the non-primary pool in one company. Customer airlines (of which we are but one) would tend to regard specific information as a confidential arrangement between ourselves and the supplier. There is a lot of such confidential information when it comes to airlines or any other business. Whether this FTO chooses to disclose specific numbers as it relates to their customers is a matter for them. However I can be sure that there is movement flow in that respect.

If you are unhappy, then assume the figure you seek is "zero" and ask yourself if you are still happy to buy the product on that premise? If the answer is no, then that is the end of the matter. If the figure you seek is more than "zero", then you you should regard the opportunity as a "bonus." In fact the number is significantly more than "zero" but I do not know what it is, and nor do I have the right to know. Likewise, nor does anybody else as it isn't what they are selling.

So in summary, what reality is it that you think I am not accepting? I would suggest to you, that you are looking for "guarantees" that simpy do not exist. There is a very high degree of risk in this business, not only in this specific topic, but in the whole industry. In seeking to minimize your exposure to such risk, you will of course want to research your odds. Nevertheless you are not going to eliminate the risk, and you are going to come up against the frustrations of not getting confidential or proprietory information that you might feel "entitled" to. That doesn't mean something is a "scam," and you ranting that it is, is both erroneous and shows a weak understanding of both the current industry and the marketplace.

Are there any other "realities" you think I don't have a basic grasp of?

Sorry, but you are walking in circles!

I recently helped 3 guys get job offer, which providing they don't screw up their training, they will have a job.

With this onus, I could put out an advertisement to perform assessment of potential candidates, same way as CTC, however of course not having the name as CTC have, I would probably come under more scrutiny.
However it would be fine of me doing this, I would not need to give any guarantees about anything, just a load of maybes, who knows, up turns, down turns.

So I could than charge each candidate £2000 to do an assessment, sim session with them, and put them in my own personal holding pool, in case I might get them a job offer within the next 24 months!

You find this ethically correct?

Here of course you have CTC vs Truckflyer!
Even if I just get one of those say 50 guys, who each paid me £2000, a job, I am in business like CTC, I have improved their odds!

I like this business idea, not bad!

"10% of this years intake coming from the non-primary pool in one company."
Ok and this means? If your company recruited 100 pilots this year, 10 of them would have come from ATP pool, correct?

"If the figure you seek is more than "zero", then you you should regard the opportunity as a "bonus." "
Are you serious!

Is that what a person should base his decision on, on such hollow promises, to part with £10.000 on, that it is more than ZERO chance to get a job?

If I was an interviewer, I would start to get worried, under pressure, because not having a job, having spent £50.000 - £100.000 on training already, and this is the choice you think is smart, son?? Sorry, I have to bin your application, because by accepting "our offer of NOTHING" - it shows a serious lack of judgement! - sorry, maybe this is what CTC are looking for?

"Your rather rambling rant seems to be tethered to an idea that there is a promise of a permanent job attached to this course"

Where have I said this? I have said CTC so elegantly says, WE PROMISE YOU NOTHING!
And I have repeated exactly this. So base on being promised nothing, they still convince people to spend £10.000 for ACQ course, which basic is a MCC/JOC course, which Oxford used to sell for £3950 in full motion sim!

Your accuracy and interpretation of what you think I have written is not the best!

Let me remind you the full facts, first you pay for your own assessment.
You pay for the ACQ course and accommodation.
Than you pay for your own Type Rating.
And you get offered a 6 months Flex contract!

And you telling me that is better than ZERO?

Of course, there is risk involved with training, I understand this, but the customer paying for all this, deserves to KNOW, before he pays the money, we are not talking about pocket change here, we are talking about serious money, enough to ruin a persons life for many years to come.

Confidential information about pilots being recruited? What nonsense, they do not need to require what company etc. just the number they have provided, which can be verified independently!
How many from the ATP pool have they provided for? How many did no get offers, this is probably the more interesting figure.

To go and spend £20.000 - £30.000, to work for 6 months on a flexi contract is not acceptable, only an idiot would do that, if he knew all the facts in advance!

I would like to see the stats just based on the ATP pool over the last 5 years, how many never got anything, however many got a temporary job, and how many got a permanent job.
Is this to much to ask for?

I thought pilots were supposed to be smart guys, it seems they are being dumbed down!

Of course let's add, without such CTC schemes, a lot of pilots would loose their extra jobs instructing, wouldn't they?
So how can we know if pilots commenting here don't have their own invested interest in that these courses get steady supply of "pilots!"
Not accusing you Bealzebub personally, but there is no objective information here!

I would like to know why a course that should cost around £3000, is priced at over £8000? Nothing so far anybody has said has convinced me that this is the holy grail! Rather the opposite, better things to spend your money on!

truckflyer,

As hard as I try, I cannot really address your points as they are so rambling and unfocused. My best advice to you, would be to say yes, you are right. In your case you would be better advised to spend your money somewhere else. That way at least you can assuage your obvious angst, and save yourself money into the bargain.

Good luck!

It is not my angst, it is a word of warning for those who might let themselves get seduced by a fancy façade, and not sufficient substance!

There is a serious lack of success stories, this forum is one place they could have come given feedback, but not many as I can see!

Easiest way to reply, is to attack and undermine another's persona, thanks, cheap tricks!

Lord above, talk about a dog with a bone :suspect:

Yes, I have recently helped 3 guys get a job, I haven't got a bone, I could not care less, but I do feel advice should come from more than one point of view!

It seems to be a commodity that not all appreciate !

CTC can refute all I say as rubbish, simply by presenting hard solid facts!

I understand FTO's want to prey on entuastic people with more money than brains, why do I get attacked for presenting my point view!

having my own business experience, if I had seen similar concepts related to other business, would showed up as red alert!
What have they got to hide!

If you are prepared to sit 24 months, after spent £10.000, and maybe get a 6 month flexi contract, after spending another £20.000 on your TR! All I can say is :ugh::ugh::ugh:

My apologies for taking you seriously.

It took a while for the penny to drop, but I have just realized you are the reincarnation of Tigermagicjohn and similar guises. You used to write similar nonsense about a whole host of FTO's in that guise.

I assume the dilemma from Hell resolved itself? ;)

?????? :confused: Don't get your reference.....

However yes, the dilemma is slowly resolving itself, against most odds!

Just a heads up guys and girls.

As we all know, application process has been closed for all applicants including CTC Takeoff guys. However, very recently Takeoff students have now been accepted for assessments.

This might be a sign for things moving a little forward.

Hello all,

Doing my AQC and TR with CTC over the next few months, and was wondering what the best ATPL Theory subjects would be to revise. It's around 8 years since I did my theory exams, so it's all a bit rusty, and I'd like to concentrate on the more important ones.

Suggestions?

I would advise:

Principles of Flight
Meteology
Performance
Powerplant
Systems
Instrumentations

That would help you alot I think!

Unlikely. Unless CTC can sign an agreement with Flydubai/Fastjet to supply them with cadets, it's going to be a long long long wait.

I don't think it is looking too promising. I was talking to a guy at the airfield the other day who said he was in the pool and has been told to go find a job on his own as CTC have nothing for him and see nothing for the foreseeable future, they said they would be a reference for him though...he wasn't best pleased.

I considered the program early last year so I'm glad I didn't go for it now.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years though with CTC as it appears they are pumping out way more cadets than they can place with no new airlines on the horizon.

Time will tell I guess.

It does not bring me joy that pilots who spent their hard - earned money with CTC and with nothing in return!

However I do wish companies like CTC good riddance, as they have over several years cornered the market for jobs, assisted in making TC's for pilots lower, by making ALL recruitment go trough them for certain companies!

Sure the usual suspects will attack me, the TRI / TRE's who make LOADS of money freelancing for such companies as CTC!
:ugh: