CTC Wings ATP Scheme (Merged)
 

I know, I know, I know this subject has previously been done to death but.....

I am through to phase 2 of the ATP scheme at CTC and was wondering if any of you kind fellows could let me know what to expect? Any help would be welcome, especially with regard to the 'technical questions'!

Thanks in advance :O

CTC Phase 2 Selection Day

When you arrive, you all go into a room and give a brief introduction of yourselves (where you're from, aviation background, etc). You are then taken up to a room with computers which you sit at and do the computer tests. They start with a hand-eye co-ordination test with a joystick and rudder pedals. Nothing you can really prepare for on this.

The next part of the computer test is mathematics I think - just basic stuff. Then there's a test where you are given a display of an RMI and a Attitude Indicator and from a selection of 4 over head views of an aircraft and a VOR you have to decide which one relates to the instrument displays and also say if the aircraft is climbing or descending.

There's a section on multi-tasking where you have to input autopilot changes to altitude, heading, and airspeed using the keyboard keys and at the same time cancel a red warning which can appear in one of 9 boxes (3x3) and you cancel using the relevant number on the 1 to 9 numerical keypad on the computer keyboard.

There were some other small things in the computer test that I can't remember but nothing difficult from what I can remember.

They then give you 2 small written tests. The first one is again basic mathematics but applied to flying. Questions like "you want to be at 1000' 5 miles from the beacon. You are currently at 8000' and 20 miles from the beacon and your airspeed is 150kts. What descent rate do you need?" So basically, a few distance/speed/time questions. Know the 1/60 rule also because I think there's a question on that.

The other written test is general aviation things like what does MDA stand for, what does DER (Departure End of Runway) stand for, how long does it take a jet engine to spool up (6-8 seconds). That's all I can remember from it.

Then you have lunch and after that you all go into a room and discuss about 2 topics. It's just to see how you interact in a group. As I said, my topics were "Has autopilot made the pilot a lazy person?" and "Should cannabis be legalised?"

And that's it.

CTC Phase 3 Selection Day

This day consists of 2 parts. The team work part and the interview. In the team work section you are given a scenario such as being stranded on an island with a group of people. You have a list of items that are available but you can only choose a certain amount and you have to decide as a group which ones to take and which to leave. Again, this is just to show how you work within a group - completing the exercise is a bonus but don't worry if you don't. If you worked well as a team, that's all that counts. You also get to build something like a crane or a bridge out of blocks and again it's a team work excersise.

The interview then is after lunch and lasts about 20 minutes to half and hour. It's basically getting to know you, you're background, you're interests, and they give you some moral scenarios. Like I said, one was "you're with an experienced captain, you're approaching the final approach fix and the RVR is below limits but the captain elects to continue, what do you do?" The other one I got was "you're on a nightstop and you notice that one of the cabin crew is high on drugs - what do you do?" There's many answers to both questions.


Best of luck!

All good stuff.

Just remember however with the trick question about the Final Fix and the hell bent on landing captain....that if you are passed a RVR below 1000 feet IT IS ADVISORY ONLY to the best of my knowledge. So, if your fix was at 800 feet on your chart for instance (if possible) , you may be able to continue.

However, I am not sure if the fix or the 1000 feet bit is overruling.

You get what I am trying to say..... try and know your rules, be firm but not totally inflexible and "anal".

Good luck.

p.s. I have a word document of CTC questions. It is old, but the questions keep coming up. I used it before I passed and got a 757 job! It is the only thing that saved me at the time, as I am not only slow, average, ugly but am also very dense!

They've changed the selection as of late to throw out the computer-based assessments. It now goes:

PHASE TWO

Group discussions of various subjects, some controversial (Legalisation of Marijuana - Is the war in Iraq Just - etc.). They're looking for how you interact with others with different opinions, not what your opinions are.

Written exams (numeracy and technical knowledge papers).

PHASE THREE

Group exercises (bridge building; wrecked off an island scenario). Again they're looking at how you deal with team working.

Personal interview - about 45 minutes. Mixed reports on this - some report how relaxed the interview was, some say it was too relaxed and they gave away a bit too much, I personally felt I got a real grilling. Be prepared for this, with an interview coach if you can - I thought I was, but I wasn't and fluffed it.

Best of luck!

stage2
 

got through to stage 2. and am one of the few that will be there who have no flying experience. going to struggle in the general aviation written test. Am in the middle of university exams at the moment but would really appreciate anyones advice of how best to revise for it. thankyou.

swede:

i think you're confusing the CTC ATP scheme with the CTC-McAlpine Cadet scheme. Theres no general aviation written test on the cadet scheme, and there's another extensive thread on this scheme which you've probably already found which tells you whats involved with that particular selection

mistake!
 

FREDA, thankyou very much for pointing out my elementary mistake. Must not have been awake I feel! safe to say im on the wrong thread here!

Thanks everyone for your help, all good stuff!

CTC ATP Scheme (Merged)
 

I am in the process of applying for CTC's ATP Scheme. I am a newly qualified fATPL but I am yet to complete an MCC course. At the moment money is quite tight so I am reluctant to do one as from what I understand part 1 of the AQC course is basically an MCC in its own right.

What I would like to know is will this put me at a disadvantage during the selection process. I would particularly like to hear from CTC Cadets who were accepted onto the course without an MCC course under their belt, if such people exist.

Cheers,

TSP3

I can guarantee you this:

If you have anything about you that CTc do not like, they will not take you!

Give them no areas for excuses. Do an MCC and do it somewhere good....

The whole thing about CTC is they like a track record and an audit trail. If you have bits missing you have no hope at all with them. Believe me, been there got the shirt etc....

i would suggest you are lucky then, when i got in it was mandatory.

However things have changed since i dare say.

I also made it into the ATP pool and hadn't done an MCC previously although most others on my course had. It is an excellent course - hard work but thoroughly enjoyable. Even if you don't make it onto the ATP scheme, I reckon just doing the AQC course will make a massive difference to your performance on your first simulator assessment for a job.

If you decide to do AQC, I wouldn't advice doing an MCC somewhere else first - unnecessary expense.

However, if you make it to AQC (final selection stage for ATP Scheme) I would advise you to read up on CRM and multi-crew procedures before starting any of the selection stages. More importantly, use the money you saved not doing an MCC first to get some cheap jet simulator experience and practice handflying skills. Take a friend who has done MCC along with you to act as PNF and concentrate on getting your scan rate as fast as possible. That's what will give you the spare capacity that you'll need to pass. Good luck.

The CTC ATP scheme (yes I have used the search function...)
 

...but haven't found anything (am I just a worthless searcher?). Got a couple of questions here. Could anyone who has attended this scheme tell us something about it. I hear that you are put in a pilot pool upon completion of training. Are you all employed today? Are the tests the same as for the wings scheme?

Thanks!
/Olof

I'm also interested in finding out some more information regarding this scheme. I've tried using the search engine, even when I just type in CTC it returns with no results. Any ideas?

I've sifted through a few threads, but if anyone could outline the basic pro's and con's of this course it would be appreciated.

After seeing my friend get a job at 250hrs on the A320/A321 and hearing about other people I have befriended getting placed in holding pools, I've decided its about time I started to pull my finger out and try to get my future career on track (some way or another.) :}

I may have the money now to contemplate applying for the CTC ATP course, but this is last chance saloon financially. I won't have any more funds to plough into flying for a long time :ugh:

cheers

JAS

Unfortunately, the search engine ignores search terms with three letters or less,so 'CTC ATP' will generate no results. You'll have to go back manually, but rest assured it's been covered many times.

Scroggs

I've read about it before so I was very surprised when I didn't find anything. I'm not quite sure how to find the threads manually though :\

/Olof

Look a little down the page. Not far, maybe 10 or 12 lines. There you will find this thread. There. Not difficult, was it?

Finding threads manually means looking through the pages. Go to the bottom of the page. There you will find 'Page 1/2/3/4/ Next' or something like that. It's advanced stuff, I know, but you'll soon get the hang of it.

Next week: how to use Google!

Scroggs

Well the fact that you have just above 11742% more posts than me should give you an edge when it comes to technical knowledge about this forum. Looking forward to your google class next week! :E

/Olof

I am really surprised by this kind of training.

the market is filled with unemployed pilots, and these companies still try to suck more money where they can , like if we did'nt have enough problems to find a job.

I have talked with an airline HR manager a few days ago, and he told me they have kicked out 4 pilots.
I am not surprised by this, probably they have hired a few guys from this CTC school to lower paycheques.

I don't think CTC is that bad A320rider... They have a good reputation both among pilots and airlines. From what I've heard they've placed many good young cadets with major airlines. If you apply via the ATP scheme you are not required to fund your type rating if you are successful...

/Olof

Ignore him, Olof. We keep him around for light amusement and to take our frustrations out on. A bit like a mangy mutt, really. He serves a purpose, but I haven't yet worked out exactly what it is. Haven't got round to banning him; anyway, he's part of the furniture now. Just don't feed him. ;)

Scroggs

A 320 you are an absolutely bell end!

You know nothing about the CTC scheme - NOTHING!!

Those who pay to go on the ATP pay a fee of around £6.5 k. For this money they get an MCC and and advanced handling course totaling around 36 hours on an EFIS Jet simulator.

Those who are successful will go on to do a type rating where they will be bonded for the duration of the type rating only.

Pay attention cheese head, because this is the bit you fail to grasp.

Whilst on the type rating a student receives £500 a month in allowances. They then get an attachment for 6 months where they receive at least £1000 a month in allowances ALL FROM CTC.

Do the maths £6.5K - 2X£500 - 6x £1000 = +£500 free type rating, 500 hours and more than likely a JOB.

The system is in the process of changing and benefits the student even more. Pilots are not made redundant just so a CTC (work experience) can take their place.
Now bug*er off this valuable forum for adults.

Sorry Mods - I've had enough of this kn*bber

Which is particularly unhelpful for a board serving an industry where TLAs are so often used, non? Is there a reason an übermod hasn't sorted it?

Also, and i'm sorry to go off topic, is it possible to search for thread containing one term AND another rather than OR? I'm probably overlooking something but I couldn't work out how to do that.

Woof, I said don't feed him. :hmm:

Chocks, dunno about fixing it. Beyond my admittedly stratospheric Pprune pay scale. As for Boolean searches, try the advanced search tab (click search first; you'll find it). Enter the terms as you suggest; I'm pretty sure it works.

Scroggs

I have the application form for the ATP scheme,from my understanding it costs around 7000 pounds to do the MCC and Advanced Skills course.
How many stages do i have to go through until i get accepted for the ATP course?what are the stages,any information from someone who has gone through?

Woof
 

Is the ATP scheme the same as the AQC course.
Reason for asking don't CTC give you half the initial outlay back on successful completion of the course?
Fair enough you are on CTC cadet wages for 6 months, but you still get flight pay.

Friend of mine went through that scheme recently, spent at least a weekend in the hold pool after passing everything, said pilot is now at Monarch.
Having been taken on a full time contract.

Lets start the campaign now, "Don't feed the A320rider":p

sorry scroggs
 

I'm probably going to annoy scroggs now. I don't mean to but you were quite sarcy!...in your reply up above, the link you provided was for the wings scheme which is not the ATP as the ATP is for folk who are already a bit down the line as far as licenses go. Not sure exaclty how far. Its caused a bit of confusion in the CTC threads already. Sorry, I'm tired and feeling pernicity.

As far as A320 goes I'd like to signup for the don't feed him campaign. Was going to try and explain why but anyone who's read a few of his posts will already know

In Belgium we have a saying that goes; "In the world of the blind; the one-eyed guy is king..."

I have to admit that there is some kind of reality in what A320 rider states. A week ago, I got my Flight International and saw the ATP publicity. One big page - orange and with EasyJet logo. I got realy excited and next step, you go to the website and there's nothing about EasyJet - "maybe, maybe, maybe you can get there...bla, bla" Imagine the money they make out of these stage selections? Just make the bill.
Doesn't anybody feel that it might be just a little wrong policy?

You can blame me for being too optimist but I have the feeling that the market is turning around. Imagine paying all that money and meeting some buddies in about a year from now that were begged to join...

Thanks for the info woof.
But do you know what happens after those 6 months?
I heard that that the bond is the sort where the airline takes out a loan and then repays that loan with deductions from your salary.
If that is correct then you are in effect still paying for your rating aren't you?
It would still be a better deal than paying up front for your rating without a job garantee, but I am just trying to figure out the total cost of it all.

P.S. wouldn't it be a good idea to make this the standard thread about the ctc wings ATP scheme instead of mixing the wings ATP and the wings cadet scheme in that other tread (it's quite confusing exactly what people are talking about sometimes)

It is my interpretation from the contract they offer states that an individual is bonded for the duration of the training. As this training is conducted by CTC and even if you include the 6 months attachment, it means that the bond lasts for no more than 8 months. During the 6 months, one is only on allowances(which are from CTC directly ((probably the airline indirectly)) and so the cynical could say that one is paying back the type rating then, but it would not amount to £25K

As for the bond being transferred post 6 months attachment - well I would be surprised about that.

To answer the question about what happens next..... That is an individual thing between the pilot and company. Most get taken on full time, some however do not.

Sorry Scroggs!

Hey, no problem. If you'd rather have separate threads for the ATP and Wings programmes, that's fine by me. I was under the impression from the first thread that the two had been combined, but if not they can stay separate. I shall retitle the threads when I've done a bit of research.

Scroggs

Edit - I've merged the thread with an earlier one about CTC ATP - which I found by Googling it!

From CTC's website:
That suggests to me that the ATP and Wings schemes have been merged, as I thought, and that I was right to lump them together.

Scroggs

If that is true then it certainly is no bad deal, The airline is sure that they get someone they can use after paying for their type rating, CTC gets some revenue from the student (they pay back most of it in the end) and keep their type rating business running and the student gets a type rating and most likely a (decent) job in exchange for 8 months no pay.

The catch is off course with the bond during training. If you fail to get the rating or mess up during line training, are you required to pay back the costs made? I'm also wondering what the pass rate is, given the rather strict selections.
I would imagine that an airline that pays for your type rating will always bond you for 2 to 3 years, but in this case it would probably be the kind of bond you don't have to repay every month, just the one that stops you from leaving.

Anyone who has gone through the scheme care to enlighten us?

The ATP scheme does indeed join the cadet scheme at the advanced handling course, but the selection procedure seems different. I'm not sure if the terms and conditions after placement are different (that's what I'm trying to find out)
Thanks for bringing back the old thread anyway,
saves us learning how to search;)

The selection for the Wings and ATP are different as you would expect.

Could any one tell me how long the wait is from sending the application to getting a date for stage 2 on the ATP programme.

Cheers

The way I read woof's post is that he's explaining, for the benefit of others as well as A320, where A320 is wrong (which is in pretty much every respect!).

The downside to the ATP scheme is that you could end up walking away empty handed. Not many people like to mention that. Sure, if you make it through, it's a great deal. But what if they kick you out? I've read occasional posts in these forums from people who didn't make it and are, with good reason very miffed. I've met a few of them in person.

7k is a lot of money for an MCC course. The jet handling course is pretty much worthless unless you are able to stump up 20k more for Ryanair. Mention it on your CV or at interview with another airline and it may send the alarm bells ringing. I am kind of interested in the course myself. First I'd like to know what the failure rate is though. I've had dealings with CTC in the past and don't trust them. I don't think that I'm alone. I'll give it a few months of looking for work on the open market and then perhaps I'll give them a shot.

A few facts from an application form:

Course cost without accommodation £5,463.75
Course cost with accommodation £6,691.62

80% successful at Phase 1 (Application form)
50% successful at Phase 2 and 3
90% successful at Phae 4 (AQC)

Now given the fact a few of you have stated you have the application form - and are still asking questions - I should ask - are you really reading the material they are providing?
Good Luck to all!

1 week from sending off the application to getting offer of stage two!

And I agree with BigGrecian, does nobody read what CTC send them?

YYZ:8

From what i have read in the application form Stage 2 and 3 consist of some interviews and knowledge tests.I am just interested in knowing more details,what kind of knowledge tests?Anyone who has gone through could provide us with some more info?