BritishGuy - Ryanair do not seem to favour recruiting experienced F/O's.

For what it is worth the command upgrades (I'm led to believe) are around the '3000 hour on type' mark.

Not only do they not favour it, they don't entertain it. There is no chance.

Judging by that categoric clarification from our good friend The Beak, are we to read into it then that Ryanair have NEVER taken on an experienced F/O before and will NEVER do so again?

Not having a pop old chap, just forewarning the impressionable of our community to the dangers of taking everything on face value. Especially on pprune. Especially posted by you :ok: (without those 'cold hard facts' that you never seem willing to divulge of course)

However, in somewhat less emphatic terms than Monsieur Beak I would agree that now is a ghastly time to be an experienced F/O wishing to apply to RYR

The reason this thread has developed in the way it has is quite clear - the industry has a problem. The likes of Bealzebub and other experienced folk who have seen it all before many times over, are standing as the voice of warning that the core of this problem lies in the recruitment policy of FR, the concept of today's "low hour" pilot, what he/she will accept as a basic remuneration package, and that the "first rung" of the employment ladder is now considered to be nothing less than a medium size jet.

I have been contributer to this growing issue by joining the CTC cadet scheme and gaining entry to the industry on one of these much vaunted (and hugely expensive) fast track schemes. I joined easyjet in late 2005 and benefitted from a hiring boom during WWW's "Golden age for wannabeism", ending up with a well paid permanent job, and B737 and A320 ratings. All for £60k! What a bargain.

Hooray for me, and I was every bit as pleased for myself as some of the contributers on this thread who are overjoyed at the prospect of flying that nice Irish registered Boeing. I didn't think there was anything wrong with working for free for six months while CTC paid me pocket money and experienced Co-pilots from other airlines sat in hold pools while us freebies jumped the queue. I'd passed all my exams and tests so why shoudn't I fly a big jet with 200hrs, I'd struck lucky and I was obviously a damn good pilot!

Of course the reality was something completely different. I wasn't some young hotshot, I was a brand new, thoroughly naieve CPL with a willingness to work 6 months without leave or pay, and as such for easyjet, a cheap way to fill what was at one time in aviation history an expensive RHS.

Four years of airline flying has given me a bit of perspective, and the legacy of the CTC scheme that I thought to be the only show in town during my wannabe years has become apparent. Prospective pilots' flock to CTC's gates, seduced by the prospect of pots' of money and the glory of flying a jet at 200hrs. All the while CTC use the lucky 300 or so who passed through the scheme during a boom period that probably isn't going to return, each landing a permanent and well paid job, as adverts that you can't go wrong. The truth? Long term it isn't sustainable, unless each year the pilots graduating from its ranks accept lower and lower terms and conditions.

Which brings us back to FR and the rot that has firmly set in at the bottom of the industry. A general acceptance that flying for free, or even paying to fly is an acceptable means of securing a "job" with the likes of FR and easyjet, justifiable on the basis that others (me) have done it before you. That contract work is the norm and you will get paid when you fly and oh, by the way, if we don't need you, swivel. You're a temp after all. Pilots with a decent level of experience in other areas of aviation or at other airlines cannot even get their CV read because they would have the nerve to expect a permanent contract with some job security. All the talk of leaving FR after a few thousand hours and joining an airline with better working practices and conditions is flawed - by this point no other airline will look at you because you are an expense, they want experienced captains or brand new co-pilots who will pay for everything and expect very little in return, remember? Ryanair, ezy are making money from the RHS, why shouldn't they?

So there are those who would say that T&Cs are heading south in every industry, just accept the :mad: on offer at Ryanair, get involved, and ignore the bitter and innane ramblings of people like The Beak.

I would suggest that as a generation of airline pilots, we are going to reap what we have sown. And it won't be pleasant.

I continue to read this thread with an increasing sense of disbelief and incredulity.

I cannot for the life of me understand why pilots - people whom I would assume are equipped with a brain - are so wiling to contribute to their own financial demise as a working group. Considering that pilots must work as closely knit team it seems a little ironic that many are willing to assist in the general downfall of pilots T's & C's.

Why should the most skilled and safety critical groups in an airline have to subsidise a profitable business? It makes no sense at all.

There will of course be those that feel they must justify their decisions, however poor those choices may be.

I can only conclude that Ryanair are cynically exploiting the vulnerable, and based on many of the posts here, the woefully naeive.

I think the things you should be asking the pharmacist for are called tampons.:)

I've stood back for a few days/weeks and read all the posts from everyone.

But my over whelming thought is that I'm not surprised that "The Beak" is unemployed in the aviation industry (or at least that's what I can make from this forum, it's a little confusing as there is no consistency), your attitude stinks. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I really can't see your point anymore. What was it again? As your goal posts seem to have shifted. Yet you tell other people to "get over it" when you throw some form of abuse towards them but when it's coming back your way it's a different story. Surely the mod's should just delete this thread as all it's good for is giving "The Beak" abuse and giving him a thread to whinge about. If you spent as much time and thought into finding a job or making money, you might be flying a B737 or even be able to afford the TR for RYR!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really, really, really hope I never fly with you.


And for the record, I can't remember who mentioned this point, but I know that a few (10) people have had B757 and A320 rating for free with no bond and no pay cut. I understand it's rare, but it does happen.

Well was it days or weeks? Only you know.

My opinion is one that I am giving with the best of intentions. I am not out to wind people up. I am not out to belittle. I am not out to gain attention. I do find it all rather funny though, achieveing some of the cantankerous, ill thought out responses that I am - but that's just a nice byproduct for me.:E

You can get a job without paying for the TR or the selection - FACT. Perhaps not right now, but the right people can and will. The wrong people wont. The impatient wont. And the people who take the easy option wont. If you wont let timing a.k.a. luck doesn't favour you then you wont. If you are a quitter then you wont.

We must accept that there are horses for courses. The purpose of this thread, or any other is not to tear strips off each other but to display our views and perhaps point out something that sits particuarly well with (i.e. helps make the decision for) someone who is a 'horse' that shares our same 'course' or is wondering which 'horse' they are.

Honestly though, no wonder this industry has descended into the **** it has. And no wonder the UK is in the **** it is.

Beak, you're an attention whore. Kindly :mad: off and spread your bitter mucus up somebody else's garden path.

And anybody else who pays this prat any more attention is no better.

having read the posts and listened to both sides of the arguement, i have not heard what i consider a single valid reason why one would choose the ryr scheme.not one.the main one being its better than the dole queue,is it though?i dont think it is because you have just spent 35k for the right seat, and in 12 months time someone else will spend 35k to replace you.i wonder what will happen to your terms

this leads me onto g-awzk post above and a comment he made about pilots begin intelligent and his surprise at them paying to fly.why would you pay for a type rating and thereby contribute to that airline being able to offer cheap flights to the costa del chav brigade.do doctors pay for their jobs so the can offer patients cheaper health care?

therein for me lies the problem for me.people who have paid for the tr at ryr recently,why would such crap terms attract you?because of the prospect of it leading to something better.well we have already established it wont,this is clearly destroying and downgrading our profession.i now earn not alot more than a tube drive as a pilot with large uk jet operator, no disrespect to tube drivers but it took me along time to qualify.why, because there is a shed load of cheap labour,who are not only cheap but will also pay to sit in my seat.

i think the real reason why people are attract to pay to fly is very shallow indeed,the reason people accept these terms is due to two things.firstly immaturity 18-25 and their mates think its 'cool' and the second is a complete lack of perspective on the bigger picture.

we have established why they can afford it,mummy and daddy are delighted because their little jonny is a pilot,never mind the fact they are a 100k down paying for it, and he has a job where he has zero benefits

its interesting hearing those who say they are now working for ryr,this is the central issue,you do not work for ryanair.you are temporary agency staff.thats all.temporary agency staff....35k for this.you invest 70k in getting a licence and then 35k to destroy the career you chose to enter.great

so all i have is one question, what do you think the career of a pilot will be like in 5 years time due to pay to fly?infact it it could be a new thread!

p.s.by the way im not just slagging off ryr,this is across the board,very few airline dont not indulge in this disgusting exploitation of the naive.

Ei-flyer, thanks for your valid contribution. That kind of post needs deleting. Absolutely pointless, wanton aggression.

Dick Byrne you aren't qualified to comment. You can not judge something until it has happened. Your family members careers are happening by the sounds of it, and have not happened.

I can offer an opinion and an educated guess as to what may happen and my guess is that it wont be pretty for you guys and girls at Ryanair.

Blackred again offers a long, explained response as opposed to the short, sharp, ignorant, rude, vitriolic, spoilt, nose out of joint, chip on the shoulder responses offered by the pay to fly brigade. You are all so weak you are last week.

I know you are but what am I?:ok:

According to Ei Flyer you are no better. Welcome to the club.

I am really surprised that you would say that. I think you'll find if you compare the number of posters rather than the number of posts you'll find the majority sit somewhere more towards my side.

Do some of you people ever stop squabbling, name calling, and back biting, long enough to actually listen, concern yourself with the issues in the topic, or even the issues generally? It is like listening to teenagers bickering.

Who cares what you pay for, how much your folks help out, or how nasty the new captains of industry are percieved to be? You are an adult (in some cases,) and the onus is now on you to be intelligent enough to do your own research to satisy your own requirements.

The idea that you pay a "vanity publishing" company a sizeable sum of money to print a box full of books in order than you can call yourself an author is fine. However that doesn't mean that those books are any better than they would have been had you not paid, nor does it mean you are now a commercial author. However that doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make the vanity publishing company a bad organisation, and who cares where you get the money from, other than you and the person who might lend it to you!

The problem is the belief that this type of industry will provide a realistic living for you. There seems to be a large section of people who believe that if they pay to buy their way in, something will then happen that changes the new reality into the old reality? At best it is the idea that you can run to stay ahead of the incoming tide. At worst it is a perception that the rules of the game will all be changed to simply embrace you at a convenient point in time.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what you decide. If you want to pay for a "job" do it. If you are seduced by marketing, then that is great news for the marketeers. If you believe reality will morph to suit your own circumstances, then so be it. The whole point of offering any advice or observation, is that you have another tool and perspective to better enable you to plan and adapt. Use it or ignore it as you wish. However some of this childish banter is truly pointless and completely at odds with the qualities that anybody will ever consider for a position in this section of this industry. I mean left unchecked you would have pilots flying past their destination as they were too involved in heated discussions to prioritise their responsibilities.

In summary, do whatever you please, it is your life. However open your eyes before you step out into the unknown. Most importantly, you are now over 18, grow up.

dear dick byrne

whats a sciolist?i presume you mean socialist?i fail to see how please explain?or are you employing im from sciolo!?

i dont know alot about ryr, but i do know a certain amount as i briefly enquired about working for them once.you said a family members earns 3 - 5k per month for the last 18 months.so they paid 35k to join, lets use 4k as an average 4 times 18 equals 72.so when you take out the 35k they paid for the job we are left with 37k over 18 months which roughly means they are being paid 24k a year gross approx.to me this is not something to be particularly proud of,maybe im wrong?thats assuming that no interest on the 35k of course.then pay loss of licence insurance,uniform,recurrent sim,pension, health insurance,union subs...or no wait your not alowed join one of those,saved money there!.pay for your own food at work,teabags,lets not forget a little tax too,maybe some income protection insurance as going sick isnt an option at ryr,no sick pay.great deal isnt it.why do ryr do this because if this individual doesnt accept someone else will,see what i mean now about the whole cheap labour and lots to replace you.not really bull**** is it.this person isnt being replaced as such....why beacuse he accepts appauling terms.

the keep your head down reference please expand.i think you mean act like the model prisoner and dont rock the boat.are you a pilot,do you have much direct experience of the industry.why should a highly trained professional have to keep his head down in such a safety dependent industry....what ryrs approach to crew going fatigued.ummmm let me think oh ya,you dont get paid.or when your ill and dont feel up to work but you need the days pay you cant go sick why....you dont get paid.is this the head down stuff you refer to.this head down crap is just that.dangerous scarmongering nonsense.there had being lots of serious accidents and lives lost due to f/os keeping their heads down,or crews unwilling to rock the boat, try klm 747 in the canaries for a start.

but thanks for giving us a financial insight and proving my point on the degradation of terms and conditions.

I hear what you are saying about it being ones choice but it is important that people realise that it is ruinous to our long term careers and incredibly risky to their parents. You may be able to afford a Ferrari F430 spyder a year with your salary (if it weren't for all your 'appendicies') but the vast majority can not, the vast majority can not afford £1500 a month extra after tax should it all go wrong and the vast majority can not afford to lose £170K by the end of all the terms of all the debts. It is about risk management. It is about not taking advantage of our loved ones. I would do anything for my family. My family would do anything for me - even if it was to put £100K of flight training debt and £45K of TR debt and my living expenses throughout the process onto their home. The difference is I wouldn't take it. I am not an impatient, spoilt, self centred little turd. I have patience (to a certain extent). Let me make this clear, I am not saying this sitting in something akin to a cardboard box, I am not poor and my parents could very much afford to do this weak 'process' for me too. I would never in a billion years allow them to though. It is wrong, rude and dreadful. And you as a father and an airline pilot should use your respected opinion to strongly discourage it. I am not meaning to sound like one of the New Labour social controlling brigade who wont let you smoke inside, wont let you eat this and drink that, but this is just wrong. It shouldn't be a decision people are granted to make. It isn't an investment in anyones future other than the short term future of the airline. Some people just wont see the wood for the trees.

Blackred, from the bottom:

If you could be bothered to scroll down to the bottom of every single page, you would see the definition set out for you. In my previous reply I highlighted the point about people opening their eyes, I rest that aspect of the case.

Perhaps the real question should be, what is a capital letter? How does the construction of a sentence make your message better understood and readable? How is punctuation properly employed? I am not trying to become the grammar police, but in a topic where you are arguing about professionalism and communication, it is self defeating when your message reads as if it were written by a badly educated school boy.

This isn't intended to be simply a "dig" at you, but in order to make the point that, communication, observation, attitude, maturity, thoughtfulness, adaptability, flexibility, skill and care, are all vital ingredients for success in this industry at this level. Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly.

Beak, if you go back and read my reply at post number 149, it save me having to repeat most of it. I am not encouraging anybody to be financially reckless, indeed far from it. However I have no particular problem with anybody who chooses that course of action. As long as they are adults, they are responsible for that aspect of their lives. There is advice and information on offer, if people decide to ignore it that is a matter for themselves.

Well perhaps you'd pass that judgement on Irishpilot too, who says your instead of you're, who says of instead of 've and who says a airline pilot instead of an airline pilot just to name a few.

bealzebub

while i appreciate my grammar and spelling is not what it should be i think questions my intelligence or professionalism based on this is a little short sighted.also complaining about other peoples name calling and squabbling being immature but yet comparing my level of eduaction to that of an badly educated schoolboy is a bit rich.
by the way your post number 181 paragragh 4 you spelt unforunately incorrectly....not having a dig or anything!i can give you more examples if you wish.

as you put it so brilliantly yourself
Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly:ok:

my apologise dick byrne.....for my ignorance on the sciolist matter, i was up early this morning. learn something new everyday.
mr bealzebub you seem to make alot of sense with what you posted so far but dont lose the run of yourself....people is glass house and all that:=

as regards my professionalism, dont worry i havent had any compaints so far other than you perfect self pops

Until it starts affecting other people.

this is just the point.the effect on others.i fail to see how someone is an independent adult if they are relying on mummy and daddys money to pay their way.why are these people unable to make it on their own?why do my terms have to be reduce because of these people

As I have said before, I am not and I know of many other people who are not relying on their parents money! I have been honest with what I am doing and would be greatful if you didn't tar everyone with the same brush! It's never facts just what you personaly believe. I have looked for jobs over and over again, I have applied to just about every company under the sun. For me however RYR was at the top of my list, you can ask my class mates, when asked who do you want to work for it was RYR! The beak is one of the holding pools you are in British airways by any chance? I would believe that someone in that hold pool may be the delusional one? Just my opinion based on no facts! SoundS familiar doesn't it!
My point is I have decided to join RYR after weighing up all the pros and cons based on my personal position in my life at this moment in time, so who the he'll are any of you to tell me otherwise! You are worried about your future and how us SSTR folk may be spoiling it for you, but note you don't give a rats arse what's going to happen to us who haven't flown for two years with numerous IR renewals. Where would that money be coming from....... Their mum and dad, so why's the difference between them spending the money now or over the course of two years keeping up hours and ratings?

so in effect dick you know roughly about as much as me then. As what you receive from your family i get through close friends working there.second hand info.correct?

thanks for answering one of my questions but how about the rest then?what is 24k per annum which no benefits worth aspiring too

seeing as im an uneducated school boy who talks rubbish.educate me.which parts of my post were rubbish so far.

i respect you have an opinion on ryr, but so do i.im interested in how you view my response to your post

How will you feel when they drop you after the summer when your temp contract expires?
23K for 6 months work and earn approx 1K per month on a 'Pay as You Fly' basis. May as well pay them for the line training and first 500 hours too while you are bending over the desk boy.
Then while your card is out, swipe for the HOTAC, Positioning, CAA fees, Medical, Uniform, Water, Crew Food, Headset, Surgey for a Collapsed Sphincter, Car Parking, Security Checks and Pass.
Oh ! I think you do already for most.
Great deal!

tommyg no one denies you are entitled to your opinion.im merely curious as to how you arrived at your opinion

how did you weigh up the pros and cons and decide that ryr was a good idea.

as regards mum and dad paying for someones ir renewals?they didnt pay for mine so why would that even enter your thought process.this is part of the argument,by involving your parents finances the industry is being destroyed

im not just worried about you spoiling it for me,your spoiling it for yourself too.we are all pilots.we will suffer together as a consequence of these decisions.that means you also.you tell me now where you aspire to be in 5 years time?ryr again

when you were training why did you want to fly for ryr.so out of ba and their varied fleet,aer lingus,emirates with the a380 etc. you wanted to fly for ryr,who charge for the tr,offer no security whatsoever, have a ceo who is open about his dislike for pilots and their profession,no lol,pension,sick pay,holiday pay i could go on.why did you want to fly for ryr

as for calling people in ba hold pool dellusional.how do you reach this conclusion.ba have some serious aircraft orders in, and while its not in the best shape now 18 months time it could be very different.should get beak in then, he would have a free tr, paid from day one, a salary scale thats tops out at £150k,pension,lol,sick pay,great staff travel i could go on.how is this dellusional?

When? In the longest standing recession in history and in the months that airlines have never recruited during? Oh fair enough then, you have tried.


Yes I think that is what you're referring to Blackred.

To quote Bealzebub, who has apparently 'got it in one' despite the numerous (not one) posts he/she has made on the subject which have oscillated about a fairly reasonable median (and have added great value I might add):

How did I get to my decision? Well I was bloody realistic! Right hand seat if an emirates a380 after 200 hours! Not too shabby! From looking at all the companies who were hiring even 2 years ago, RYR was close to the top, heard any complaint? No! Yes the terms now have changed however they still are alot better than what I am doing now! I have no sick pay I don't get food or water and I am stood up to my thighs in pig crap all day repairing plastic tears! This is why for me who has saved up the majority of the money Ryr is better as it is what I want to do with same terms as what I have been used to most of my life as a student working part time! This is probably why we won't see eye to eye, you have had a taste of the lush grass of sick pay and not paying for everything but for the likes if me I haven't! As I said I pay for everything now including my fricking uniform etc!
The ba thing was me just showing that I too can spurt useless crap! But seriously some if those guys gave been in the hold pool for over a year and won't see any sign of action for a while, let's be honest!
Who is going to pay for someoneS IR renewal, they can't afford the money it takes to keep current plus the fees on a bar mans wage, that's including the first one being in the sim. Just think about in two years time when they have to do it in a plane! Two years wihout flying a Seneca say, you will need a few refreshers plus the test, it all mounts up and unless you were a professional before you started flying you will struggle to find work, just as I did! If they are then living at home with their parents they are then relying on them but just it a different way.

Curious
 

I'm curious - given the number of recruits from Ryr year on year, I don't actually recall a glut of guys coming back on here after 12 months to say they have been let go.

Is this a general myth or does it happen in large volume but the disaffected keep their heads down after the event?

sorry wires crossed on the emirates thing you said

'For me however RYR was at the top of my list, you can ask my class mates, when asked who do you want to work for it was RYR'

i thought you meant your life long dream was to be a ryr pilot for the rest of your days,crossed wired.

as regards the degraded terms, just because you have never had sick pay doesnt make it bad.if you trained to be a pilot so you can have a 'career'...then dont let someone degrade your dreams t&c.thats what ryr do.the issue i have that by paying ryr for tr you help support a company that wants to destroy this career...thats all.in five years time i bet you would like a nice job that offers security..will ryr do this?doubt it

as regards your thighs and the pig crap.hope its not a physical relationship!!is this a hobby??!:ok:

as for the ba thing who knows what will happen.

Yes wires crossed! Not a problem! Ofcourse I would love to fly for some big company, however at the moment that's not possible and won't be for a while. One day in the next decade or so!
Take care,
Honestly thankyou for the constructive critisism, it's alltaken on board.
Happy landings.

Good man Tommy, well done for taking differing opinions to your own constructively, it is absolutely essential in this game.

Well with the clocks going back an hour and only having 'the dole' to support me I can't afford to have the lights on and use the internet. And at the moment I am having to respond to you so, as a result, I am in a dark place.:uhoh:

Believe me, I am a pretty happy person, so don't feel sad.:)

Thank you Dick, for the record I am not on the dole, I have been, but I am not now and haven't been for a fair while now. I don't wish it on any professinally qualified person. Thanks for your well wishing, I do appreciate it and I offer the very best to you too. I would be over joyed to captain a Ryanair aircraft, provided I don't have to pay at any point to do so and provided, unless there are no other options, they offer me a permanant contract. Why wouldn't I? They have a huge route structure, a lovely aircraft and a wide and varied work force that would be an interest every day to meet. But that doesn't detract from the extremely high risk situation people are putting themselves into to get a rolling one month contract, for hour by hour pay, no perks, no respect and all because they can't be bothered to wait and because most can get the money very easily from their dearest loved ones. Comparing the trainees from a year or two ago to people embarking on the TR now are two very different things. The two will have very different luck I believe. As I have maintained all along, the economy and the airline industry have huge amounts of inertia and I honestly believe there are a few nasty latent effects heading the way of the low houred FR brookies. No one wishes it. These 'effects' may be modest and tame at first (over a 6-12 month span) for example a basing in Serbia but it will end out with you guys and girls being offered 20 hours a month. Nothing is limitless. If they keep on going, something will give. The bigger they get, the harder they fall.

I speak for everyone when I say i dont think any Ryanair pilot wants to see you near a Ryanair cockpit.I can only imagine how ignorant you would be to the cadet in the right hand seat.That news story last week of the aircraft with the two pilot pilots fighting springs to mind....:}

The beak is a fraud like thousands of other people who post here.

If you want to join Ryanair, then do so. It is your life and you only get one chance.

I have not heard of any cadets being binned after 23 months.

Do not believe half the rubbish you read here about any job.

Beaky - please find something more constructive to do in your considerable free time rather than whip up an argument here.

tommyG
 

Are Ryanair not a big company? I thought they were the biggest international airline in the worl IIRC!

When I say big airline I mean one that does a vast amount of differing length routes, eg medium and long haul, you have to think about the future and an upgrade in the Boeing family would be ideal! So hopefully RYR will go long haul like planned then there will be no need to move airlines in 15 years or so! Who knows I may even change my mind and prefer short haul, but until I try it I really can't say! Who knows what the world may bring? Do you yourself have any ideas, suggestions or advice?
Thankyou in advance,
Tommy

If the Ryanair deal wasn't £33k and if it led to a full time contract I'd be heartily instead of resignedly recommending people apply for it.

But that is a massive, ten storey, backlit, neon edged IF.


If I put my MOL hat on for a moment my plan would be this.

* Lets start selling a SSTR/line flying product, lets say charge twice the normal cost to allow for a suitable margin.

* If they have a pulse, a license, a cheque for £33k and can pass a basic sim assessment - that'll do.

* We need some fresh blood to occupy the RHS anyway as we're expanding. If we stop then these people can be just switched off as they're just Brookfield contractors.

* If the SSTR/line flying product proves really popular and really profitable then we'll take shedloads and just shove people onto Brookfield contracts and give them such little work they either starve or leave to pack boxes in a factory, or jump off a bridge, or whatever.



So you can see the risk either too many people willing to hand over £33k, or, a slowdown, halt or retraction in the size of the fleet and you've paid your money in order to be a Brooky being offered 2 sectors a month.

That would hurt.



WWW

Thanks so much Eagerbeaver and Irishpilot.

As always a good post by WWW.