No :(
No :(
Naturally :E
(Not really)
Now you've got it! Luck that came from doing what most people do. Knocking on doors, staying the distance and taking whatever work came my way. I set my sights lower, planned accordingly and worked through as an instructor and a GA pilot. I had 2500 hours, all piston time, before I got near a jet and it was GREAT flying. I harbour not a single iota of bitterness about having to do it that way because I chose it and got what I expected and before you say "It can't be done here, that way, any more" I cry "B0llocks!". Only three days ago I wandered into my local flying club and was asked to role play the part of a student for a guy wanting to become an instructor there. They get applicants every week. Is he going to live on Pot Noodle for two years? Almost certainly, but at least his parents will keep their house.

I fly with people from a similar background which at the very least makes our flightdeck and down-route conversations....... nay, our lives FAR more interesting than would be the case between two modular, wunderkinden*.

Captain OATS: "So. Which batch of drones were you in?"
F/O OATS: (Five minutes later) "361B"
Captain OATS: (Five minutes later) "Oh"

GA Captain: "Ever been to (obscure place on the fringes of civilisation)?"
GA F/O: "Once. We woke up in the morning all in one room festooned with local fertility beads, stark-naked, surrounded by sleeping gibbons".
GA Captain: "Gibbons, eh?"
GA F/O: "Yup"
GA Captain: "With us it was orangutans"

Sorry but I just don't understand those who borrow a sackful of money all hinged upon well, another sackful of money, to go and work in a sanitised, hum-drum environment at a company where the CEO and management positively hate them. Where's the soul? Where's the fun? The vibe? The reason to get up in the morning? And don't tell me it's the thrill of doing London-Edinburgh back to back because that's just being in denial.

Look, folks. I'm not trying to rub your noses in it or come across as the salty old dog of the sea (ok,air) and if I'm coming across as curt it's because:

1. I've been ranting against SSTR for years.

2. The buggers who started and perpetuate it are ruining the industry.

3. Their 'f*ck you' attitude toward those they're spoiling it for grates with me. People who now look for work are paying to fly and all because someone, somewhere paid to jump the queue. It'll never affect me because you're right, I'm past that stage. But I still get angry when I the havoc it wreaks and that's why I continue to argue against it.

I'll also go out of my way to help anyone who wants to follow the slower, 'proper' route and I'm not the only one. GA/Bizjet people tend to help others out a LOT more than you find in the airline world.


PS. irishpilot 'tain't "elocution", just plain old spelling ;)



*From personal experience. I've interviewed several dozen most of whom, I'm sorry to say, would drive me to distraction five minutes into the cruise.

Flintstone, I think you're an interesting guy and I'm jealous of your career in many more ways than you realise. Your stance vis-a-vis SSTR is honourable and perfectly understandable. Unfortunately the world isn't honourable or correct. It's dog eat dog right now and no amount of luck or sentimentality can change that. I was speaking to a very good friend this afternoon (flies the 767 in the UK) and he pointed out that I am damn lucky to be getting a job in the current climate. No experience pilots I have met have said any different even though all know Ryanair's faults.

However Flintstone, my main point is that I think you make an unfair assumption about the type of people who join Ryanair. Of the half dozen I know, none are the 'Wunderkind' type you describe. I'm certainly not and I'd say you've misjudged the average Ryanair intake. The Ryanair pilots I know are generally from diverse backgrounds and have worked hard to be in the position they're in.

As for me, I'm a 30-something with a previous, interesting career, a desire to start a family as soon as is feasible (i.e. another 2 years on a low income isn't a go-er), an extended family spread around the continents and a youth spent abroad, plenty of hilarious and unusual stories to tell a bored Captain on the flightdeck. If you ever get lucky enough to share a cockpit with me you'll have a good time, honest :}:ok:.

Your comments might be better placed on the CTC, Cabair or OAA threads, not that some very nice people don't qualify out of those places!

Airlines such as FR react to market forces. They're a business. FR are very very good at what they do.

Timing/luck can make a big difference. I joined FR 2yrs ago as a DEC and had never sat in a 73 before. FR paid for the lot, bonded me for 5 yrs and I'm not on a reduced salary. I'm also employed by FR and not Broookfield.

Pure luck/timing. Demand was exceeding supply.

Was chuckling to myself reading all the bickering. Personally, I'm going to sell my vital organs to fund my training. :ouch:

So why is it then '99%' of the people I know with an fATPL who have funded their training by various means and have trained in various ways, would not pay Ryanair for a TR? They have not done the selection and nor would they. They instead are working in every industry but aviation, flying an SEP hour a month, waiting for the tide to change. What makes it all so different for an 18-22 year old that has a charge over his/her parents? Why is patience all of a sudden no longer a virtue? Why is money no longer an object? Because it isn't yours and you haven't had to earn it?

This doesn't apply to the likes of MikeHotel who is 30 something and has paid his/her way - what you do with your money and how much risk you take on your own is up to you. But Having your parents take a risk for your training and then basically blackmailing, actively or passively, with the whole 'it's the only job available forever' line is despicable. Can you not wait in line for your turn? You knowingly joined a big queue. You need to earn respect and responsibilty - not have someone buy it for you.

Good idea, but not much demand I am afraid. Brains are in short supply, so they might command a fair premium. Hearts are also popular as they like to take these and break them into many pieces. The rest of the organs are of little value as they simply help themselves to these as you sleep. Livers are sometimes useful on PPRuNe as they can be squeezed to extract the bile. Similarly kidneys and bladders to extract other fluids. Remember to leave a small hole so you can vent your spleen!

Beak theres the two options, go for Ryanair, or sit and wait as you say.neither is wrong..so whats your problem?If one is does apply for Ryanair it does not mean they get it for start.
also you say the "parents" are taking a futher risk, i bet you the guy that gets into Ryanair has his loan paid before the guy that doesnt.the bank/parents/friends/family will be much happier then!
Neither option is wrong. .
This is an industry where you should at least try appear professional... coming on calling people parasites if they dont agree with you is nothing short of ignorance and snobby.Have some respect for yourself, and others.
Bet Beak is not as vocal when in the guy in the left hand seat makes a statement he disagrees with.:=

I've been busy so haven't commented much on this one.

I've been recommending the RYR deal for over a year now as its basically the only deal in town.

Having issued that statement, and knowing several nice people who are engaged upon the scheme - its a pile of ****.

You're paying 50% above list price for a type rating. You're going to be O Leary's bitch for 6 months and then you're going to be shot in the head or told to sign up to Brookfield. Which is kind of the same thing.


It will start your career. It will get you experience. It will make you Boeing rated. It will open up options. It will allow you to finance the loan repayments.

I know. I know it makes sense. I don't blame you. Read my second line again.


But for those not yet committed to this path TAKE NOTE. The best offer out there is to pay an exorbitant fee to get a trial period with a pilot-hating airline which will force you to become a contractor with close to Zero employment rights over when, where or if you work. Is that £70,000 still burning a hole?

Probably.



WWW :sad:

i think www summed it up with above post,it is in my opinion also a dreadful deal.

and before someone tells me its the only way forward thats a load of crap too.i started out post 9/11 jobs were like hens teeth, i managed to get a jet job without having to pay for tr.yes it did involve luck i will agree, but more importantly i think it involved patience and initiative, not marching into ryr hq with the cheque book in one hand and a tub of vaseline in the other

if its your own money then fair enough, but if its mammy and daddy remortgaging the house then serious questions needed to be asked.

the only thing ryr promise is the fact you will be down about 50k by the time they are finished with you.now i would imagine they will be slow to ever take someones cash and then say sorry no places for you as the tr scheme will die when word gets out.but how can giving yourself on a plate to mol be a good idea.

live the dream!

Thats a pertinent point.

This thread has got bogged down with debt and how you pay for your FR TR.

In answer to those who moaned earlier about the moderation of this thread I say that the answer to the thread topic is either The Bank, or, your Parents. And that's it.

Thread over.


Oh, and the bank ain't lending..



The real topic worthy of discussion is what's life like as a Brooky for Ryan?

I genuinely. Honestly. Really. Think about it. Definitely. Think it would be like being a prostitute. A whore. MOL is the pimp. Brookfield the House. You the prostitute.


He tells you when and where you can work. What you will do. And if he doesn't like it you are thrown to the debt wolves. If you swallow his rules then joining a union is fruitless. Threats work. You can be sworn at in meetings. You will bring your own empty bottle to work. You may fill it once you have cleared security. You will walk to the aircraft. Across the the dark, streaming with rain, apron. Even though there is a bus taking EVERY OTHER crew to their aeroplane. You are not worthy. You are Ryanair crew. You earn more. Your salary is higher. Your tax status is better. Your career prospects are greater.


Lies. Falsehood. Dellusion.


Don't spenf £70k to put yourself in a position to pay £33k to MOL in order to accept this crap ersosion of the profession to which you aspire. Just Don't.


WWW

Well, quite. If you need to ask the question then you can't afford it and you shouldn't be doing it.

It would be in a world of real answers but you will get the usual pie-in-the-sky answers we are so used to from this lot. And they will really try and show that they are being rational by saying 'it isn't perfect' like they are leveling with us. No :mad: it isn't perfect. That's a euphamism for it's absolute crap working for them.

I am going to apply to have it put in the JAA ATPL HPL syllabus, Ryanair Denial. It's going to prove dangerous.

If you want a more realistic view, have a look in the Terms section up top. Don't ask a load of 20 year olds who were bought a 737 job for Christmas or you'll get fluffy :mad: out.

You boys and girls had better make hay while the sunshines because, as MOL boastfully admits - his airline loves a recession. The recession wont last forever. You have given him a mile and he is about to take a Parsec.

Has anyone managed to get a actual loan for this recently? Looking into providers now. I know there is a bank in spain that are loaning to OAA students, but waiting to hear back from them.

ta

Be careful with BBVA, there is a reason why they are so willing to lend to to a load of lemming, desperate pilot trainees.

its should be asked also why are so many airlines now charging for type rating.is it because 'mummy and daddys' offspring dont have any patience.its much easier to fire 50k of someone elses cash at the problem than have to serve an apprenticeship - instruct, light twin flying etc.try working in other parts of the world,use ones intiative,do the much less glamorous part of the process that worked for so many others before (including me thankfully!)

so much credit available,so much greed,so little patience,look what it has done to the industry.

sadly the whore comparison is very accurate me thinks

Loan
 

I totally agree, its way way outside of my budget, which has already gone beyond its initial limitations! NO more money for me, at least until an airline promises me a job with terms and conditions - then i will pay for the TR, if thats the way the world is heading.

I was wondering as I already have a loan, and have been exploring the refinancing of it. Just wondered who else do that kind of thing so i can investigate. BBVA are not my first choice, a bank that isnt even based in the UK already poses prblems for me in my mind.

Cheers for the responses so far..

Dear wannabes

Just a quick heads up in support of the "parents" side of this argument. There seems to be a pervading assumption that a generation of parents will find themselves living in a trailer or cardboard box, having naively been pursuaded by the fruit of their loins that they should remortgage the family home beyond any ability to repay such a debt, in support of said childs worthy ambitions.

Whilst it is true that we leap with joy at the prospect of supporting the decisions our progeny make, that aren't likely to involve a a visit from the local constabulary, we have over the last 18 years or more learned a thing or two when it comes to children and financial acumen. Now don't misunderstand me, we know what a haemorrhage you have been on our wallets for the best part of two decades. From those shopping carts full of nappies and premium priced tiny jars of baby food, through clothes that lasted 25 minutes and toys that lasted even less. School fees that would have supported the foreign debt repayments of a small nation. Driving lessons, cars, university, holidays, allowances etc. There has never been a despot in history that has manged to tax our income in quite the way you have.

Despite all of this we have still managed to hang on to the family home. Yes we have moved from time to time, and we have refinanced to provide us with the illusion of moving closer to the utopia of our eventual retirement. We have deluded ourselves that you will grow up and leave home to start a life of your own one day. Then the mortgage will be paid off, we can go on that world cruise, and all will be right with the world. Of course we know that is a dream that reality will likely shatter, but our real experience of life has provided us with a hardened sense of self preservation.

So, whilst we are always excited in encouraging you in your dreams and beliefs, particularly those that might actually one day result in you not being an endless drain on our resources, we are also not stupid. Long ago we learned to write off any realistic prospect of ever seeing the return of money we "loaned" you, although we live in hope. Likewise, whatever we may have told you, we were not going to make ourselves destitute on the altar of your dreams, however realistic, wild or fanciful.

Just to cap it off, I might remind you that you have just spent the last 5 years or so, assaulting and insulting us with your hormonally induced attitude, temper tantrums, irrationality, unreasonableness, uncooperative behaviour, laziness, unsanitary and slovenly behaviour, all wrapped up in a package of hatred and ire directed squarely at us for having the audacity to bring you forth into this world in the first place.

Now it would be easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, that this change in your behaviour and newfound desire to become a respectable member of society would be a worthy investment on our part, if we were to sacfrifice ourselves to this new and expensive religion. However nature provided that antidote to us during your recent teenage years. So whilst there may be other childrens parents that can afford such things, most of us can't. Because we still love you, and labour in our illusions that you might leave home one day, we will of course continue to support you and help in any way that we reasonably can. Those that worry that we have somehow lost all sense of reason and self presevation, should set their minds at rest. It might sometimes appear that way, but we haven't!

Love,

Mummy and Daddy.

Er, no, that's what the thread was supposed to be about...it's just that you and TheBeak would prefer to slag off Ryanair instead. Oh, and it's nice to see that you've put your favourite Pimping record back on the turntable WWW. I honestly hadn't realised that pilots at other Airlines get to choose their Base, the times they work, and choose their own SOPs. Why is it that all the pilots I know outside Ryanair spend as much of their time moaning about their own jobs as you do about Ryanair?

Like you, WWW, I know some very nice people working for Ryanair on Brookfield contracts. They're realistic about Ryanair, their decision to pay for their Type Rating, their pay and terms, their tax status, the walk across the 20 metres of tarmac, and all the other stuff. But they would rather be working for Ryanair than sitting on the dole.

Seeing as it's fashionable to keep repeating the same arguments on this thread, I shall do the same. There are many people out there who did not mortgage their parents houses yet can afford to fund a Ryanair TR, who have worked damn hard to be in the position to start a career in the airlines, who would love to have the time to be patient and wait for the recession to end, but for whom Ryanair represents a sensible (if unpalatable) option due to their personal circumstances. It is a myth that all Ryanair FOs are 21 years of age...

I have yet to meet a professional pilot who has criticised my decision to join Ryanair and I would trust the opinions of those with whom I have spoken about my decision well above the views of disgruntled pilots on an anonymous forum whose opinions are based on third-hand rumour and their own prejudices.

What an amazing thread.

Some turkeys will vote for Christmas after all.

I saw this coming 7 years ago, and it still amazes me that there are people dumb enough to swallow the bolloxolgy about having to pay for a type rating.

There are obviously free type ratings out there - however none of the chumps who are coughing up 33k (amazing - just amazing!) for a 737 type rating can see it.

The management are getting the free type ratings - in fact they are getting an even better deal! Not only do they get to laugh at you, they make a profit on you as well. Sadly none of those having hysterics about it can see this :ugh:

7 years ago I lobbied BALPA to nip this crap in the bud before the cancer spread throughout the industry, but as usual BALPA didn't see it happening at BA so all was well. IPA went one better and asked members to write in a tell them where the best SSTR was.

Pilots can be their own worst enemies at times. :{

i dont think its a case of people not being able to see there are free ratings available its just its easier to fire 35k of someone elses money at mol and say do your worst to me, than have to search for a proper job,being patient enough to serve an apprentice, show some initiative etc

its all a case of refusing to look at the bigger picture.

just look at the state of this career now because of the bank of mummy and daddy

blackred1443, G-AWZK...

You clearly aren't low hour pilots who have searched for jobs in the last year. :confused:

Surely the only people having hysterics are people like you!

im not a low houred pilot now,i've not researched the job market now you are correct

post 9/11 i was a low houred pilot,i didnt have the money to pay for a tr.jobs market was similiar, ryr was the main recruiter, charging for tr

i still managed to get a job on a jet, without paying up front for it.it was salary deduction.yes it did involve a chunk of luck but also i would like to think down to me using my loaf.it forces you to show some initiative and be inventive in how i went my job search.where there is a will there is a way!these pay to fly schemes at ezy,ryr etc are destroying the industry.its needs to stop

i respect you may not share my view,but fail to see the hysteria in my opinion?

We're at cross-purposes, the quote regarding hysterics was from G-AWZK's post.

The experienced pilots with whom I have spoken regard this job market as worse than 9/11. I should add that I have a couple of very good friends who qualified about then, both of whom went into instructing and/or flying air taxi, one of whom got lucky after 3 years and has now been flying jets for 5 years, but sadly the other found himself to old to get into the airlines and missed out.

There are a lot of personal factors which determine whether one can afford to persevere with the job market or take the Ryanair 'deal'. Personally, I know I've made the correct decision.

When I was struggling to find flying work post CPL IR I did a plumbing course as it is a pretty lucrative, if not very glamorous, profession. Its not that hard being a plumber but it is pretty well paid.

The reason...

I thought this was brilliant! At the end of the course they tell you "this is the minimum hourly rate that the profession as a whole will charge. PLEASE don't charge below that amount to undercut the competition or else other plumbers will be forced to compete and the earning potential of everyone will be reduced". So as a result of this, the earning potential of plumbers still remains pretty high!

Now we, as supposedly intelligent pilots, will just clamber over one another to get jobs to the detriment of all else. It's not great it really isn't. However given the tough times and desperation, it is understandable and MOL and all airlines really will take advantage of you. As long as you know who you are. This is the only reason I can see to be part of a union no matter which one. There is no other benefit other than strength in numbers. But again this requires some selfless thought and an ability or desire to see the big picture cause being a part of a union is not free.

I always hope that when things pick up again and the number of jobs available increase and people have more options than Ryan they will move and seek employment elsewhere where they will be respected thus hindering Ryan's expansion. Ryan's "pay for your type rating" deal will be less attractive as people have other options so Ryan's ability to train new pilots quickly enough is reduced. Maybe then they will have to re think their offering and the tables will turn in favor of the pilot community once again.

Unfortunately the reality is, this won't happen. If Ryan is your first job you won't know any better plus people don't like change so when you are doing OK why move.

The result.....

We will never return to where we were before. Its just a fact. No point in discussing it anymore. Things change. At the end of the day it is survival of the fittest which includes us as pilots and airlines as entities. Money talks, end of.

Couldn't agree more bigjarv. The die is cast. Like it or not.

If I were 10 years younger I might not choose Ryanair but that's because I would have more options and more time to enter the industry in a manner that matches my morals. But right now I have to think about Ryanair on a purely personal level or I everything I have sacrificed for this new career will weigh more heavily on my mind than concerns about allegations that I have contributed to the downfall of industry-wide terms and conditions.

The reality for me is this: By Spring 2011 I will be in 'profit' notwithstanding paying for the FR Type Rating; by Jan 2002 I will unfreeze my ATPL; I could potentially be up for command in Spring 2014. All this assumes I prove to be a good commercial pilot, have the potential to sit on the lefthand side of the cockpit, and don't get booted by Ryanair or choose to move to greener pastures.

Terms and conditions are decaying in all industries. Pilots are no exception.

while i agree t and c are deteriorating in most industries other than banking :mad:.they do seem to be deteriorating at an alarming rate for pilot.while im sure mikehotel you do believe you made the correct decision for you in the short term, in terms of the rest of your overall career how can it be a good decision.you say a command beckons potentially in 2014, what type of a command will that be,what will the t and c be like.right now you are in a role where you have very little rights.they have wiped out 50k of your cash and what have you got in return.ryr can call you tomorrow and say sorry no work for you for six months.god forbid you get ill long term tomorrow where does that leave you,ryr dont care do they?

what kind of a job is that?what kind of a career is this?this race to the bottom will end in disaster for all.its more than a little disturbing.

i dont think the dye is cast,if people stop signing up for these crap pay to fly deals t an c will improve.simples

But the reality is people won't stop paying for these crap deals. Not for the foreseeable future at least. How are you or anyone else going to stop them? It's all very well bitching and moaning about it but it is going to happen so unless you can think of a way to stop them there really is nothing else to discuss!

Incidentally I think it is terrible that people are paying for their own type ratings. I think it is terribly short sighted on so many levels. I'm just glad I got into the industry when I did and didn't have to pay. I couldn't cope with another financial noose around my neck. There are too many other ones outside aviation that are also worthwhile. Gosh! Imagine that... a life outside aviation!

blackred, your points are mainly fair and I wouldn't disagree that the race to the bottom has started. I would love to say that I agree that it's reversible, but sadly I doubt it.

Nobody, Ryanair included, sees Brookfield as a career. It's the start of a career. I will see how it goes. If I enjoy it, I'll stay. I know Captains at FR who thoroughly enjoy their careers. I know FOs who are very content with their lot with Brookfield.

Once the recession ends and pilots have other options Ryanair may find themselves forced to change their attitude to SSTR. We'll see.

bigjarv - there is, and it's often more lucrative. I didn't change careers in order to make more money.

Let's get it into perspective; the financial 'noose' isn't that bad. Unpleasant but bearable.

mike hotel i do think it is reversible, if people stop paying for their own tr then airlines are forced to change.cheap labour is no longer available.my main concern is i have 35 years left in this game.i dread to think what its going to be like in 10 years time.while i can appreciate you had your reasons to choose to do the sstr, i think this cancer is ruining this career.ryr leads the race to the bottom and ezy and the rest follow in an effort to compete, terms get eroded.

i realise your probably earning quite a nice sum now at ryr but the lack of security offered for me is quite frankly terrifying,how can this be a career.

in my opinion is all it takes to stop this is people taking a stand and refusing sstr.ryr and ezy etc still need pilots, let them pay for it.just my opinion,i think im correct but it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong!:ok:

and also this is where the bank of mummy and daddy becomes a problem as generally those who can afford these crap terms are people who have the benefit of affluent parents

I completely agree that they should pay for it! Other than becoming defiantly unemployed - and subsequently divorced - I don't see what I can do about it. :(

Aside from posting sensible warnings, there's little more you can do for those willing to make huge and risky withdrawals from the Bank of Mummy and Daddy. If your point is instead that it's unfair that some have access to such funds while others haven't, I don't disagree but fairness doesn't play much part in life...I'm afraid.

mike hotel for me its not really a case of whether i think its morally right or wrong for daddy to pay for his 20 year olds tr,the bit that winds me up is when it directly impacts on my terms and i feel that this is now starting to happen.

i think if someone funds their tr out of their own pocket for me thats easier swallow in a way because they are making their own way in life, but when i see some rich kids generous parents directly buggering up my career, ya that sticks in my throat a bit.This career is becoming a battle of whose daddy has the deepest pockets.its no longer a sim/interview to find the most suitable candidate, its now about the funds the candidate can get his hands on.quite sad i think.but again just my opinion i could be talking b"£$%^!

Mate, I agree, which is probably why I keep posting on this thread, trying to explain my decision-making, so that people don't make assumptions about my behaviour and reasoning. There are always many sides to any debate.

IMHO nobody should secure positions like piloting, which requires skill and involves responsibility for other people's lives, unless they do so on merit. Money should not be a factor - at all. I don't care whether the person at the pointy end is rich, poor, multi-coloured, multi-limbed or speaks fluent Klingon, provided they do the job well and keep me safe!

In that respect, I guess I only care how people get hold of the money to pay for a Ryanair TR in as much as they don't gamble with other people's money.

As an aside, I should add that I've yet to see actual evidence that FR recruit pilots who aren't up to scratch but that may be because they get so many applications that they can afford to employ only pilots with excellent potential:p. Will things change once they face competition from other employers and potential Ryanair FOs vote with their feet, heading for airlines with better T&Cs? I don't know.

i would have been really upset if FR just recruited people based on bank balance but i genuinely feel that beside the ability to pay for TR, they also assess the individual for suitability.

true there are a lot of young pilots being recruited and yes, they are being helped by their parents but could they also be decent pilots who are up to the job?

mind you, jet2 are starting to recruit again and if you are low hour, you could register with them.

You've made the right choice for your circumstance and I've recommended people to follow your path on these forums. Its the only game in town and it is better than most of the alternatives.

Its still another rung on the ladder down to **** creek that the profession is clambering. But thats not your fault. MOL has discovered that he can charge people for the chance to fly his aircraft from the RHS. Such a discovery is lucrative for him and other managers will copy him.


:(


WWW

MikeHotel, it is quite clear that you have paid for your TR yourself, you have a more rational and reasoned response. I understand why you paid for your TR. Someone such as yourself doing what you did isn't ruining the industry. Nor, for what it's worth to him or her, is the route Torque tonight has taken. But for 18-22 year olds (+ 5 years even) to be coming straight out of their FTO and deliberately applying immediately to Ryanair because they can't be bothered to wait, they can't be bothered to earn and they know that they can get the money easily to fund their training with a few tugs on the old heart strings is just deplorable and is definately ruinous to our industry. And I hate to break it to anyone, but it is what most who join Ryanair do. That's why the effect has been so large - it is undeniable. Just look at Oxfords placement figures into the company. Just look at the level of intelligence from some of the earlier posters on this thread. They are an embarrassment to you and your company MikeHotel, hence the reason you don't wish to be tarred with the same brush.

All of this aside, it is good to see a healthy, reasoned, calm and mannerly debate going on.

I maintain, Ryanair shouldn't be the answer that most FTO leavers come to and certainly not within 2 years of leaving.

Patience is a virtue. Don't force situations.

And to quote the Joker:

'If you're good at something, never do it for free'

couldnt agree more with the beaks comments.mikehotel has presented his argument in a controlled and intelligent way.while i dont agree with all of what he said it does make a pleasant change to some of the 'spoiled brat' reactions some have posted.

it is that category/age groups impatience that i do believe is causing alot of the issues we now face as pilots.it does amuse me though when they class themselves as ryr employees,because there in lies the whole argument.they are actually employed by no one,certainly not ryr, they are contractors and with all the uncertainty that it entails.the penny hasnt quite dropped yet but with time it will.

i do hope it works out for mike hotel,its clear he has paid his way and is under no illusion about where he stands.

such is life i guess

Much as I still feel this thread was hijacked and the debate over Ryanair should have taken place elsewhere, it's no bad thing to discuss what TheBeak and WWW and others identify as a huge change in the aviation industry. If anything, at least readers of this thread who are considering a career with Ryanair will realise it's a difficult and personal decision which needs careful thought.

There are precious few options out there other than Pikey's show, but do not suffer from delusion: RyanAir is the cancer of aviation. You can not make a deal with the devil and cherry pick the bits you like, i.e. expect people to sit in silence while discussing some aspects of the contract.

Some bear a larger share of the responsibility for this than others, but as has been said before by Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

I think MH152 has hit a very large nail on the head.

"identify as a huge change in the aviation industry"

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity (re: selection day) to pay for their own type rating. For RYR there is no risk in the process, but more importantly, they can cut their costs massively.

I suspect this is a small but significant part of how they keep their running costs down, and therefore their ticket prices competative.

Contracted staff only get paid when they fly therefore no wastge on annual salsries etc. Their cost cutting knows no bounds with escape instructions on seat backs, online checking, encouraging no baggage, the only cabin crew (to my knowledge) who pay for the priviledge of their training and so on.

With type rating costs being a significant if not huge cost of staffing an airline, and the ever present blinded desire of some to pay whatever it costs to get a RHS of a jet as their first job, lets not kid ourselves that other airlines are not considering similar exploits. Business managers have a primary role to keep a business working, their priority is not to maintain your terms and conditions.

Indeed there are companies who sell a worse product than RYR, selling a type rating with line training, where you pay to fly and don't have a job, contractor or otherwise at the end.

Much as I hate the way the industry is heading, I am one of those looking at RYR as a potential route because of 2 fundamental reasons. Firstly the jobs market is not flooded with lots of employers, it would appear that for a low hours pilot RYR is the only option currently. Secondly, I am middle aged, with a family, house and mortgage and thus flying instruction is so poorly paid that if there were a job, it wouldn't support my family. Don't get me wrong, I have saved and earnt every penny to pay for my training, but I can't pay my bills on £15000 per year.

As to how to pay, there are several options:

1. Bank loan - good luck in a credit crunch, and if you've already got a £70k loan, I suspect it's not going to be viable.
2. Bank of mum and dad - only for the fortunate few, and a risk to offset someone elses property on your gamble.
3. The national lottery.
4. Saving/investments - the sensible if time consuming option.

Just my thoughts,
Obs

Mere pocket money for FR.