Type rating of choice - hypothetically
Terrier
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The whole issue of self sponsored types would disappear if people were not too keen to rush in.
However, I guess that seeing as most unemployed guys are low hours/ low experience levels (as ever) and are willing to pay for a job, then the practice will proliferate.
However, let's all ask ourselves this simple question :
If no-one applied to pay for ratings jobs, then how long would it take for the airlines to start training again? About 6 months to 9 months I think.
Any comments?
chokdee
As for snobbery about the exclusive remark, it is not a bad choice of words at all. how many guys applied when you joined CTC? How many got a place on the course?
It is relatively exclusive as a scheme, because only limited numbers of places are ever available.
So, I am happy with my remarks.
However, I guess that seeing as most unemployed guys are low hours/ low experience levels (as ever) and are willing to pay for a job, then the practice will proliferate.
However, let's all ask ourselves this simple question :
If no-one applied to pay for ratings jobs, then how long would it take for the airlines to start training again? About 6 months to 9 months I think.
Any comments?
chokdee
As for snobbery about the exclusive remark, it is not a bad choice of words at all. how many guys applied when you joined CTC? How many got a place on the course?
It is relatively exclusive as a scheme, because only limited numbers of places are ever available.
So, I am happy with my remarks.
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Tailscratch,
May I congratulate you and your exclusive band of brothers for being so accomplished alround individuals. The airlines , I'm sure, are lucky to have you as employee's..
It's a big bad world out there and us desparado's are going to do everything possible to join your elite, sorry, exclusive bunch...
It's a dog eat dog world...
Who needs a house to live in....I've always liked camping...
And I've got a new tent in the garage....
Your not scared of the competition are you..
Mick
May I congratulate you and your exclusive band of brothers for being so accomplished alround individuals. The airlines , I'm sure, are lucky to have you as employee's..
It's a big bad world out there and us desparado's are going to do everything possible to join your elite, sorry, exclusive bunch...
It's a dog eat dog world...
Who needs a house to live in....I've always liked camping...
And I've got a new tent in the garage....
Your not scared of the competition are you..
Mick
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bruce88,
As a fellow wannabe/desparado I understand your position but do you think your stance further undermines decent pilot terms and conditions?
As for the rating, either an A320 or B737 efis/ng!
As a fellow wannabe/desparado I understand your position but do you think your stance further undermines decent pilot terms and conditions?
As for the rating, either an A320 or B737 efis/ng!
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Tailscrape, you speak wisely as always, I've never met an airline pilot yet (and I've worked with thousands) who would recommend paying for a type rating.
The CTC scheme is indeed an exclusive club, paying £6000 for an MCC and advanced handling course is a world away from these idiots who are prepared to pay £16000 for an ATR rating.
bruce88, just out of interest where would you draw the line ? Why stop at one type rating ? How little would you work for? bearing in mind that you describe yourself as a desperado? Myself, a CPL/IR with MCC is enough, I will not pay one penny more, and neither will my colleagues. One of which is off to Sweden tomorrow to begin his type rating (after waiting patiently for 18 months for a break) and one of which is starting his 737 rating in 2 weeks (paid by his new employer).
If wannabes didn't pay for type ratings then airlines would have to, that is a fact. Now if people are really prepared to pay £16000 for a rating on an ATR, then go ahead and do it. I will happily bring you your loadsheet, and every time you walk through that front hold to get to the cockpit you'll know you've made the wrong choice.
The CTC scheme is indeed an exclusive club, paying £6000 for an MCC and advanced handling course is a world away from these idiots who are prepared to pay £16000 for an ATR rating.
bruce88, just out of interest where would you draw the line ? Why stop at one type rating ? How little would you work for? bearing in mind that you describe yourself as a desperado? Myself, a CPL/IR with MCC is enough, I will not pay one penny more, and neither will my colleagues. One of which is off to Sweden tomorrow to begin his type rating (after waiting patiently for 18 months for a break) and one of which is starting his 737 rating in 2 weeks (paid by his new employer).
If wannabes didn't pay for type ratings then airlines would have to, that is a fact. Now if people are really prepared to pay £16000 for a rating on an ATR, then go ahead and do it. I will happily bring you your loadsheet, and every time you walk through that front hold to get to the cockpit you'll know you've made the wrong choice.
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"I will happily bring you your loadsheet, and every time you walk through that front hold to get to the cockpit you'll know you've made the wrong choice"
How would that person have made the wrong choice if he is sat on the flightdeck as a pilot, sounds like the right choice to me.
How would that person have made the wrong choice if he is sat on the flightdeck as a pilot, sounds like the right choice to me.
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My views in the subject !!!!!
Foghorn ,
Haven`t you heard : " NEVER PAY FOR YOUR TYPE RATING " .
I completly agree with some of you guys , but for the others , they are talking complete NON SENSE !!!!!!!
Come on people , even if you have the money never pay for your type rating . Cos you might do a type rating on a 737 or a 320 , but that doesn`t mean you gona get a job . For most major airline like Air France ... , if you come to them with a type rating they will not look at you in a different way . For them you are an unexperience pilot . You don`t have the hours to back it up . If you had 2000 hours then it would be different . But with low hours , they`ll take you only if you fit their requirements . One day an Air France captain told me : " you might be the best pilot in the world , but if you are not tailored to be an air france pilot ( meaning that they like everything about you ) you will not get in !!!! It doesn`t matter wether you have a 737 or 320 type rating .
If you really wana do something that you have so much money to play with, then do a CRM or MCC or LOFT or JOC course , but even though if you don`t have any specific airline you wana work for it won`t do much . Cos the SOP`s are different for every airline !!!
Nowadays when you walk out of any major flight schools in europe , you`ll have a frozen ATPL and 200 hours with an MCC course . And you should ask yourself : " why don`t the flight schools offer a type rating course or force you to do a 737 type rating before you leave ? " there`s a good reason for that !!!
Cos with the amount of experience and flying hours you have when you come out of there it won`t make any difference and it won`t make you more employable !!! ( it will only cost you more )
And the last thing i wana say is that some of you were talking about flying the 737 would be better than flying a 320 to start with !!!! Come on people , you can`t argue that !!! It`s non sense . You are not gona choose which machine you gona fly !!! The airline might ask you that in the interview but at the end of the day , it`s the airline that`s gona decide which aircraft you gona fly !!!!! i can tell you FOGHORN that they are both great aircraft to fly . But don`t think , cos you have a 737 TR you`ll be fying this A/C . If i can give you an advice , it would be : " get used and familiar to the glass cockpit " , cos the way the airline industry is going , you will be flying on modern aircraft and the only place you might fly Classics would be to fly for a cargo company or some african airline but even though they are putting the 747 Classics and 727 to retirement . So i`d suggest you to concentrate on getting a job and polishing your CV and interview squills and forget about the TR . Remember we are not living in an Hypothetical world ; what we are living in is real !!!
And i`d like to finish with this sentence :
"""BEGGERS CAN`T BE CHOOSERS !!!!!! """"
P.S : And all the best to all of you !!!! I know it`s not easy to get this first job , but once you get it , then you are on your way to success . But remember : "Success is not a destination , it`s a journey !!!! " 
Haven`t you heard : " NEVER PAY FOR YOUR TYPE RATING " .
I completly agree with some of you guys , but for the others , they are talking complete NON SENSE !!!!!!!
Come on people , even if you have the money never pay for your type rating . Cos you might do a type rating on a 737 or a 320 , but that doesn`t mean you gona get a job . For most major airline like Air France ... , if you come to them with a type rating they will not look at you in a different way . For them you are an unexperience pilot . You don`t have the hours to back it up . If you had 2000 hours then it would be different . But with low hours , they`ll take you only if you fit their requirements . One day an Air France captain told me : " you might be the best pilot in the world , but if you are not tailored to be an air france pilot ( meaning that they like everything about you ) you will not get in !!!! It doesn`t matter wether you have a 737 or 320 type rating .
If you really wana do something that you have so much money to play with, then do a CRM or MCC or LOFT or JOC course , but even though if you don`t have any specific airline you wana work for it won`t do much . Cos the SOP`s are different for every airline !!!
Nowadays when you walk out of any major flight schools in europe , you`ll have a frozen ATPL and 200 hours with an MCC course . And you should ask yourself : " why don`t the flight schools offer a type rating course or force you to do a 737 type rating before you leave ? " there`s a good reason for that !!!
Cos with the amount of experience and flying hours you have when you come out of there it won`t make any difference and it won`t make you more employable !!! ( it will only cost you more )
And the last thing i wana say is that some of you were talking about flying the 737 would be better than flying a 320 to start with !!!! Come on people , you can`t argue that !!! It`s non sense . You are not gona choose which machine you gona fly !!! The airline might ask you that in the interview but at the end of the day , it`s the airline that`s gona decide which aircraft you gona fly !!!!! i can tell you FOGHORN that they are both great aircraft to fly . But don`t think , cos you have a 737 TR you`ll be fying this A/C . If i can give you an advice , it would be : " get used and familiar to the glass cockpit " , cos the way the airline industry is going , you will be flying on modern aircraft and the only place you might fly Classics would be to fly for a cargo company or some african airline but even though they are putting the 747 Classics and 727 to retirement . So i`d suggest you to concentrate on getting a job and polishing your CV and interview squills and forget about the TR . Remember we are not living in an Hypothetical world ; what we are living in is real !!!
And i`d like to finish with this sentence :
"""BEGGERS CAN`T BE CHOOSERS !!!!!! """"
P.S : And all the best to all of you !!!! I know it`s not easy to get this first job , but once you get it , then you are on your way to success . But remember : "Success is not a destination , it`s a journey !!!! "
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I'd offer to pay for a type rating....
There are so many people out there looking for a job with low hours....
As you say ..beggars can't be choosers..
If paying for a type rating gets you the job, you have no choice but to do it....someone else will, if you don't..
It's alright having principles about pilot pay and conditions, but if your on the bottom of the pile you can not afford to argue the toss with an employer, who holds all the cards....
He really couldn't give a toss if you took the job or not...
" Next Please , and close the door behind you"
I agree that buying a type rating , with low hours and without any offer of a job at the end of it, is a waste of money..
You'd be better off paying for a whole bunch of multi time...and maybe going on holiday to Hawaii for a few weeks...
Mick
As you say ..beggars can't be choosers..
If paying for a type rating gets you the job, you have no choice but to do it....someone else will, if you don't..
It's alright having principles about pilot pay and conditions, but if your on the bottom of the pile you can not afford to argue the toss with an employer, who holds all the cards....
He really couldn't give a toss if you took the job or not...
" Next Please , and close the door behind you"
I agree that buying a type rating , with low hours and without any offer of a job at the end of it, is a waste of money..
You'd be better off paying for a whole bunch of multi time...and maybe going on holiday to Hawaii for a few weeks...
Mick
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Bruce 88 ,
I agree , what you are saying make sence , but i suggest you only do it if you have the job waiting for you afterwards and only then you should think about getting a TR .
But even though , if they ask you to pay for your TR , what are they gona ask you next ??? To pay for another type rating ??? So you gona buy your way up !!!!
I`m sorry but this is not the way to go !!! For the airline if they see that you have to buy yourself a TR to get the job , then i guaranty you , that you won`t be working with this airline for a long time . They`ll get rid of you whenever they can . And this comes from a true storie . Check the book " Checklist for success " , it`s a book giving you tips for getting the interview .
Take care ,
cheers .
I agree , what you are saying make sence , but i suggest you only do it if you have the job waiting for you afterwards and only then you should think about getting a TR .
But even though , if they ask you to pay for your TR , what are they gona ask you next ??? To pay for another type rating ??? So you gona buy your way up !!!!
I`m sorry but this is not the way to go !!! For the airline if they see that you have to buy yourself a TR to get the job , then i guaranty you , that you won`t be working with this airline for a long time . They`ll get rid of you whenever they can . And this comes from a true storie . Check the book " Checklist for success " , it`s a book giving you tips for getting the interview .
Take care ,
cheers .
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Money canbuy you a job!!!!!
Haha haha haha hahahahaha,
What a load of tosh. Money can't buy you everything is the type of thing people say when they have money.
Rubbish money can buy you almost everything that you ever wanted and for all those who believe that money can't buy you love and happiness well more fools you.
More to the point why aren't you working to invent the longer lasting light bulb or the cure for cancer.
Anyway my point is from the low hours persepctive. I would do just about anything (legal) to get that 1st job if I were you. If that means paying for the rating well, pay for it.
Yes all you airline pilots out there who say, 'But it makes the industry harder to get into for others.' Yes life is hard, those who want to get on will find the money whatever it takes. Do you think barristers and doctors find it easy paying for thier career progression. Yes they reap the rewards but they also earnt them.
Those who are good enough, who can find the money will make it. There arent exactly airlines going out of business from lack of pilts now are there.
So for all you poeple out there sitting on thier principles with 3000+ hrs. Stop looking down at the things we do to get to be you. You are the industry and I don't see you out on strike due to the poor terms and conditions offered to newbies. I only see you sending chastising threads.
Let's get amongst it gentlemen. I'll pay 20k for a 737-NG rating
What a load of tosh. Money can't buy you everything is the type of thing people say when they have money.
Rubbish money can buy you almost everything that you ever wanted and for all those who believe that money can't buy you love and happiness well more fools you.
More to the point why aren't you working to invent the longer lasting light bulb or the cure for cancer.
Anyway my point is from the low hours persepctive. I would do just about anything (legal) to get that 1st job if I were you. If that means paying for the rating well, pay for it.
Yes all you airline pilots out there who say, 'But it makes the industry harder to get into for others.' Yes life is hard, those who want to get on will find the money whatever it takes. Do you think barristers and doctors find it easy paying for thier career progression. Yes they reap the rewards but they also earnt them.
Those who are good enough, who can find the money will make it. There arent exactly airlines going out of business from lack of pilts now are there.
So for all you poeple out there sitting on thier principles with 3000+ hrs. Stop looking down at the things we do to get to be you. You are the industry and I don't see you out on strike due to the poor terms and conditions offered to newbies. I only see you sending chastising threads.
Let's get amongst it gentlemen. I'll pay 20k for a 737-NG rating
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Non Sense !!!!!
Vortex Thing ,
dude , you are so full of crap . If that`s your perspective of life , then i`m sorry to brake it to you , but you won`t go very far !!! If you think , because you have money you gona success in life , then my friend you are very far from the reality . You might get a very high job within your airline , but if you bought your way up ; I`m sorry but i wouldn`t be proud of this !!!! I wouldn`t call that success ...
And fiske thanx dude , I agree with you 100 % ....
dude , you are so full of crap . If that`s your perspective of life , then i`m sorry to brake it to you , but you won`t go very far !!! If you think , because you have money you gona success in life , then my friend you are very far from the reality . You might get a very high job within your airline , but if you bought your way up ; I`m sorry but i wouldn`t be proud of this !!!! I wouldn`t call that success ...
And fiske thanx dude , I agree with you 100 % ....
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It really is bad enough for students to have to fund the full cost of massive training fees, which would/ will financially cripple them for many years to come, other than those with parents/ legacies behind them.
BUT- it is scandalous and absolutely immoral for these employers to counter-charge a potential employee for type rating, to the extent where the employee is working for next to nothing for his first year of "remuneration", if it could be called that.
Can you think of another industry where you are charged to be employed?
Surely, it is this sort of abuse that unions, such as BALPA, are supposed to be in existence to counter? Or, as is likely, do the M. O'Ls of the industry just give them two fingers?
BUT- it is scandalous and absolutely immoral for these employers to counter-charge a potential employee for type rating, to the extent where the employee is working for next to nothing for his first year of "remuneration", if it could be called that.
Can you think of another industry where you are charged to be employed?
Surely, it is this sort of abuse that unions, such as BALPA, are supposed to be in existence to counter? Or, as is likely, do the M. O'Ls of the industry just give them two fingers?
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The other thing to consider before handing over 20k is whether or not one would successfully pass the Type Rating. If it were easy for low-hours pilots to convert straight to a 737/A230, airlines wouldn't need companies like CTC to mitigate their training risk. For anyone seriously thinking about doing it, I'd suggest getting a couple of hours on a Level D simulator with an independent TRI to get an honest view on your chances of making the grade.
Foggy - as I see you like stats...:-) From the CAA website under Economic section show a/c utilisation by type for the last quarter. The stats say there are 133 Airbus A319/320/321s in service and 140 B737s (all types). Note these figures are for UK airlines (not Ryanair) so it looks like there's more 737s out there.
I'm a bit confused about how UK airlines supplied and sold more seat Kilometers with A319-21 than they did with B737s when there are more B737s in use? Anyone know how/why? Longer range trips perhaps? Man, I've gotta get a life!
Airbus A319/A320/A321
RSK ASK No. Hrs used Hrs avail
2400033 2933207 133 92531.8 264744
B737 - all types
RSK ASK No. Hrs used Hrs avail
2004282 2533630 140 100054.23 290424
*RSK = Revenue Seat Km (Demand in 000s)
*ASK = Available Seat KM (Supply in 000s)
Foggy - as I see you like stats...:-) From the CAA website under Economic section show a/c utilisation by type for the last quarter. The stats say there are 133 Airbus A319/320/321s in service and 140 B737s (all types). Note these figures are for UK airlines (not Ryanair) so it looks like there's more 737s out there.
I'm a bit confused about how UK airlines supplied and sold more seat Kilometers with A319-21 than they did with B737s when there are more B737s in use? Anyone know how/why? Longer range trips perhaps? Man, I've gotta get a life!
Airbus A319/A320/A321
RSK ASK No. Hrs used Hrs avail
2400033 2933207 133 92531.8 264744
B737 - all types
RSK ASK No. Hrs used Hrs avail
2004282 2533630 140 100054.23 290424
*RSK = Revenue Seat Km (Demand in 000s)
*ASK = Available Seat KM (Supply in 000s)
Last edited by buttline; 13th Aug 2003 at 09:18.
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What England is a meritocracy now
Soooooo nice to be understood,
First things first. Fiskey I didn't say that it would get me a job I just implied that it would move me up the pile. It is more likely that having demonstratred that I am not a training risk that I can convince an employer such.
Even if they are going to make me do the whole course again. At least they know that I am highly unlikely to fail and thus cost them money which is what the skill set part of the application dealt with. Obviously if I am a tosser then they are not going to give me job however good I am so the argument becomes nugatory.
Aircrew001 you are either naive or down south they have a meritocracy.
Do you really believe that you can be talentless and succeed. I don't.
That is not for a moment what I suggested. My implication was meant to be that money opens doors to allow people to see your ability. NOT give you ability that you don't inately posses and if I had the money I'd use it.
DO you think that every scholar at Oxbridge is ther due to thier amazing mind. 80-90% are but then there are those who mummy and daddy sent to the correct school, with the correct links and then just to tip the balance donated a new library to a college and lo and behold their BBC offspring just pass the entrance. Aided even more if they were a gifted rower, rugger ******, hockey player, etc.
I am not saying that it is fair, I dont believe it is.
If I had my choice every airline would interview every pilot with fATPL and put them through a rigourous selection and only those who came top of the list got the job. Unfortunately no one cares about my inate ability or background cos to find out they would have to wade through 5000 CVs from people so we have to resort to methods that get us noticed.
If that means adding more secured loans on my house then I'll do it. If I have to walk naked down the high street, I'll do it. If they want me to move to anywhere in the world, I'll do it. If you want me to be Saddam Husseins personal pilot and alienate everything and everyone I know then I'll do it. If you want me to chop one off I'll do it. Because I really do mean that I am willing to pay the price to succeed.
Don't mistake that with buying success. I only want to buy a shagging chance. Success comes once the foot is in the door for those who are able enough. I can make success, however I have to get someone to interview me first!!
Hope we're clear now because if you don't agree with this then it's you who are full of it or so far up the chain that you have lost sight of your roots.
VT. Bring it on
First things first. Fiskey I didn't say that it would get me a job I just implied that it would move me up the pile. It is more likely that having demonstratred that I am not a training risk that I can convince an employer such.
Even if they are going to make me do the whole course again. At least they know that I am highly unlikely to fail and thus cost them money which is what the skill set part of the application dealt with. Obviously if I am a tosser then they are not going to give me job however good I am so the argument becomes nugatory.
Aircrew001 you are either naive or down south they have a meritocracy.
Do you really believe that you can be talentless and succeed. I don't.
That is not for a moment what I suggested. My implication was meant to be that money opens doors to allow people to see your ability. NOT give you ability that you don't inately posses and if I had the money I'd use it.
DO you think that every scholar at Oxbridge is ther due to thier amazing mind. 80-90% are but then there are those who mummy and daddy sent to the correct school, with the correct links and then just to tip the balance donated a new library to a college and lo and behold their BBC offspring just pass the entrance. Aided even more if they were a gifted rower, rugger ******, hockey player, etc.
I am not saying that it is fair, I dont believe it is.
If I had my choice every airline would interview every pilot with fATPL and put them through a rigourous selection and only those who came top of the list got the job. Unfortunately no one cares about my inate ability or background cos to find out they would have to wade through 5000 CVs from people so we have to resort to methods that get us noticed.
If that means adding more secured loans on my house then I'll do it. If I have to walk naked down the high street, I'll do it. If they want me to move to anywhere in the world, I'll do it. If you want me to be Saddam Husseins personal pilot and alienate everything and everyone I know then I'll do it. If you want me to chop one off I'll do it. Because I really do mean that I am willing to pay the price to succeed.
Don't mistake that with buying success. I only want to buy a shagging chance. Success comes once the foot is in the door for those who are able enough. I can make success, however I have to get someone to interview me first!!
Hope we're clear now because if you don't agree with this then it's you who are full of it or so far up the chain that you have lost sight of your roots.
VT. Bring it on
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 13th Aug 2003 at 18:46.
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Slightly different angle to the 737 / A320 type rating.
Spoke to someone at BAC Express recently and they said they were now fully crewed. They did not anticipate running any more SSTRings for at least six months.
The uptake of these SSTRs must have been fairly swift and the demand high.
Also rumours about replacing Sheds with ATRs are apparently just that, no plans afoot......!
Spoke to someone at BAC Express recently and they said they were now fully crewed. They did not anticipate running any more SSTRings for at least six months.
The uptake of these SSTRs must have been fairly swift and the demand high.
Also rumours about replacing Sheds with ATRs are apparently just that, no plans afoot......!
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Ahem
Oh Flyergirl,
Yes to become a lawyer you pay for CPE if you don't have a law degree, 12k. OR you have paid to go thru uni doing law about the same amount.
Next LPC another 10k now if you are lucky with a good 2:1 and a chambers takes you on you may be given a pupilship to become a trainee barrister which you could remain for a few years before you are called to the bar. You have to pay to use the chambers facilites and make next to nothing for about the first 5-6 years from the I want to be a barrister stage to standing on your own feet. Or you could become and articles clerk and then go on to become a solicitor another two years on rubbish wages b4 being given a certificate to practice.
So unless you read accountacy, optometry, nursing, education, medicine or similar you are going to need postgrad training for most professional jobs. Many peolpe self fund MBAs or postgrad diplomas. Hell if you want to work in networks who pays for your MCSE, CCNA or CISCO, etc courses. Chances are not the employer. A graduate from uni with an accountacnt degree earns 11-16 k for 3-4 years prior to finishing ACA, ACCA or CIMA. having had to pay on the numerous debts brought on by uni.
We just pay 30-50k get it sorted and then apply?
Is it wrong, yes of course it is, does anyone care, well only those of us at the bottom of the pile unfortunately. But hey, who said life was fair
Yes to become a lawyer you pay for CPE if you don't have a law degree, 12k. OR you have paid to go thru uni doing law about the same amount.
Next LPC another 10k now if you are lucky with a good 2:1 and a chambers takes you on you may be given a pupilship to become a trainee barrister which you could remain for a few years before you are called to the bar. You have to pay to use the chambers facilites and make next to nothing for about the first 5-6 years from the I want to be a barrister stage to standing on your own feet. Or you could become and articles clerk and then go on to become a solicitor another two years on rubbish wages b4 being given a certificate to practice.
So unless you read accountacy, optometry, nursing, education, medicine or similar you are going to need postgrad training for most professional jobs. Many peolpe self fund MBAs or postgrad diplomas. Hell if you want to work in networks who pays for your MCSE, CCNA or CISCO, etc courses. Chances are not the employer. A graduate from uni with an accountacnt degree earns 11-16 k for 3-4 years prior to finishing ACA, ACCA or CIMA. having had to pay on the numerous debts brought on by uni.
We just pay 30-50k get it sorted and then apply?
Is it wrong, yes of course it is, does anyone care, well only those of us at the bottom of the pile unfortunately. But hey, who said life was fair
