Reasons to fail a type rating course

[Kerropi]

What are the common reasons to fail a type rating course for example B737/Airbus.. i myself have a single engine rating I have no idea what a type rating course consist of...?? except being able to fly the airplane..... Is it really that difficult???

[carbonfibre]

good question

OK

Im not sure if this is going to be correct because im not at that stage yet!! however i will try to answer your question and if any airline people would like to chip in feel free

I would imagine like any test in aviation you could fail due to:

1. Not knowing the aircraft systems, including:

Airframe, engines, performance, envelope parameters

2. Not being able to fly the aircraft in a satisfactory manner:

Take off, alttitude control, manouvering, landing, performance flying ie, engine out etc

3. General poor performance against a set standard, a database built up of standard pilots

4. Crew coperation if included as part of an MCC or not

5. Inability to maintain situational awareness, due to unfamiliarity, brain power etc, keeping up with the aircraft / sim in general

6. Ability of planning, route, maintenance of route flying

7. General attributes, like turning up on time

Im only guessing at these but would imagine all are as important as another.

I think only a person who has failed or has failed someone can tell you the real reasons

Hope this helps

[fusible plug]

An interesting thread. So you are looking to fail a type rating then? How about some positive thinking?

[carbonfibre]

Interesting

Fusible plug,

I agree, although it happens im sure you wouldnt want to be offered a job flying one of those and then fail.

Maybe someone whoi has had the mis- fortune can comment??

[crackerjack]

A positive attitude and a good working relationship with your sim buddy will see you through.

Don't try to 'score points' off your mate, any half decent trainer will see through this and unless you are very, very good, it'll end in tears. Two against one is much better odds against the enemy!!!

[Pilot Pete]

carbonfibre made a very good attempt at listing possible failure areas for a type rating course, especially as he hasn't done one yet. Some valid comments are;

1. The type rating is split into 3 parts. Firstly the the groundschool to pass the ARB exam. This is where you learn the aircraft systems inside out to pass the exam paper. Pretty much like an ATPL subject. This can be very difficult depending on the method of instruction (or lack off) and your 'classroom' ability. When I did my it was all PC based and you sat in a room for a week or two with the headphones on and had to listen to this American drawl through literally hundreds of 'slides' for each system. I hated it. The second part, assuming you pass the technical paper is the sim course. You will be paired up with a training partner and will spend several weeks in a sim and hotel room (especially if it's your first jet type and you have low hours). Sim sessions are usually 4 hours at a time with 2hrs each PF and PNF. If you have the right attitude you will be very reclusive during these long hard weeks and will be beavering away in your hotel room and on the cardboard bomber learning all the SOP's and calls, scans and drills. Each session is another subject and preparation is everything. There is little time for going back over stuff unless you are ahead of the game (which makes it a catch 22!) and it culminates in your skills test which is reasonably straight forward (couple of approaches, precision and NP, engine out and two engine work and a few selected failures and drills). The final part, if you pass the sim is the base training where you go and do a few circuits in the real machine, have a whale of a time and leave the seat with a huge smile.

2. So, with all that in mind there is plenty of lattitude for cocking up and failing. The only point from carbonfibre that I would disagree with is point 7. That's more line training which comes after successful completion of the type rating course, remember you can't start line training (with fee paying passengers on board) until you have the type rating.

I would say the biggest reason for failing is attitude (and I don't mean being inverted!) When I did my first type rating there were six of us and two failed during the sim. They had both struggled in the classroom and were not up to the (very long) sim course. I say attitude because one spent all day and night on his laptop (probably reading Pprune!) and the other had a glorious sun tan within two weeks due to spending all his time round the pool.

Be under no illusions your first type rating is very tough. You are being pushed to reach the required standard in the minimum time deemed necessary. BUT, do remember that everyone is on your side (despite crackerjacks quip!) they want you to pass - the company are investing a small fortune in you and the trainers have professional pride. If you put the work and effort in they will do the same and unless you really are hopeless and obviously out of your depth (which shows a shortcoming in their selection process) they will do everything possible to get you through. I also think attitude sums up most of the other reasons for failing. Think about; unpunctuality, not prepared, bad CRM, lack of knowledge of SOPs and drills etc etc. With the right attitude and the dedication to hit the books every day for several hours and the discipline not to go down to the bar for the 'whole' evening with the hotshots (you know, the ones who do no work but just breeze through without breaking sweat!) you will give yourself the best possible chance of success. The right attitude will get you through.

PP

[camelsnail]

I feel I am opening a can of worms!

Someone mentioned words to the effect of:-

"You are looking for a reason to fail?--how about some positive attitude".

In other walks of life (so far in non flying related activities) too much positivism can be bad--it can brush over "real" things that need redressing. False positivism is the biggest load of rubbish out if it is false. Healthy diplomatic sceptism is cool, is it not?

Surely cynacism is healthy. It points to potential issues--and we learn from it?

Or is this a cultural divide in opinion according to where we are from?

[witchdoctor]

Pilot Pete

Thanks for a post that I reckon is one of the most useful I have read for a long time. Hopefully I'm not the only fATPL holder waiting for a job who is now somewhat more enlightened as to what to expect should we be fortunate enough to get the offer of employment.

Cheers.

PS - Anyone else concerned to have spent so much and still know so little? Just me then.

[carbonfibre]

Point 7

Pilot Pete,

Thanks for that insight, very interesting. I made point 7 as a point of tardiness rather than flying the plane out on time, i.e. turning up to class ontime, sim rides on time etc, again down to general attitude.

I made the remarks i did as a matter of experience, as i have flown during my PPL days with people who had a lot more flying experience, but, and a big but, hesitate to fly with them again as i see the things in them that i would not like to see in a professional pilot, or any pilot from that point.

Most people learn from mistakes , evaluate the situation and at least make an effort to avoid a similar situation again, this is not the case with some.

I am glad to see that they were near(er) the mark anyway.

Thanks for a great response happy flying

[v1rotate]

Before I got my current job, the biggest thing I flew was a Cessna C206 dropping skydivers. Here is my experience doing a type rating on a Turbo Prop.

The Ground school was 2 weeks followed by the examination. I could go into the details of the groundschool but I'm sure the main question in this thread is to do with the fllying/sim section of the type rating.

We (Myself and another collegue, me with 410 hours total and he had about 600 ish) had two weeks of the sim with a session every day of 4 hours (2 hours in each seat). After the first session of which it was getting used to "flying the aircraft", we came out with a feeling that it was impossible!!! Our instrument flying was terrible and speed control, altitude control was not brilliant either. The next session proved much better as we rehersed all the things we were meant to do in our hotel rooms etc. I was very much a confidence building excercise. It was only after the 3-4th session of the sim that we really got the hang of flying the sim but then came the emergencies. Each session got progressively more difficult in terms of emergencies etc

The thing that I do to prepare myself is i do alot of visualisation so that always helps. Just towards the end of the training, we worried about how we would do in the test/check. Everything was fine up to then but maybe you go into a self doubt period, i don't know. Come the day of the check, all went well and we passed.

The only thing I can think of for not passing the check is that of Self Confidence. Another would be other factors like the state of your personal life, problem in the family etc. You really don't need that sort of stuff distracting you when you are trying to do the sim.

[Pilot Pete]

Carbon,

My apologies, on re-reading I agree with point 7! Don't know what went wrong there, I meant point 6!! Flight planning and routes come with line training. In the sim you will be given bags of fuel (or keep getting it topped up by the instructor) and will usually put a route into the 'box' but invariably will end up at some 'field' practicing various approaches etc. or 'frozen' in position(so that you don't get too far from a field) whilst carrying out drills etc. Again, you will keep getting re-positioned as the instructor tries to get the maximum from the time allotted. It can become confusing, being positioned back on finals for the eighth time! If in doubt as to what the next approach is, even if you've been told, just say, they know how high pressure it can get. As with any stage, just do a quick recap with your partner before you are 'unfrozen' again, there's nothing worse than moving off when not fully sure of what you are going to do, or not having the aircraft correctly configured (which happens regularly) ready for the next bit.

Hope this clears up my thought process.

PP

[carbonfibre]

Got ya now

PIlot Pete

OK got that , fully understand , thanks for that.

8 times on the approach, keep circling the beams into surrender, that should do the trick or it will kill your brain off

Hard work but sounds a lot of fun, hope i get that chance one day to find out, great insight though

Thanks for your thoughts

[I. M. Esperto]

I'm ATP rated on the B-707,720,727,747,767, and L-1011.

I never busted a rating, but I was with 2 that that did.

The first was a B-727 @MKC. Student, Bob, an experienced B-707 Captain, made a FD approach to minimums, and the Inspector removed the shield. Bob saw he was not exactly perfect, so he decided to go around, then changed his mind, closed the throttles, and attempted to salvage it. That's a no-no, gentlemen.

Re-checked after a few sims, and did OK. Died of a coronary at age 39. Go figure.

Next was an oral that went bad with a buddy of mine. At JFK, FAA Inspector. I went first in the B-747 sim., and the inspector wrote me off.

Bill took the seat, and was doing fine. Bill BTW is a big Red Haired Scottsman from Prestwick, with an Irish temper. I saw the inspector sign him off, but he didn't tell Bill.

He said "One more thing Captain, what is this switch for ?" He pointed to the guarded switch on the overhead panel that operates the emergency gear extension.

Bill answered in his finest burr, that it was for the extension of the LG if the main system failed. "Right. Now how does it work? Bill told him it was a pneumatic system, operated by air pressure. (I could see him getting red in the face.).

"Correct. Does air pressure blow the gear down, or what?"

Bill looked him right in the eye and said "You cut the safety wire, lift the guard, and throw the switch."

"Yes, true, but what makes the gear go down?" said the inspector.

Bills reply was a classic. I wish I had a recorder.

"Ya throw the fookin switch, and the fookin gear goes down and fookin well locks, every fookin time!"

The inspector tore up the sign off, and Bill had to do it another time.

[FlyingForFun]

For another account of a type rating, try reading this AvWeb article

FFF
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[DiverDriver]

Thanks I.M.E & TCS I haven’t laughed so much in ages. DD

[jasonjdr]

Some great insights into the type ratings.

Interesting read about getting the rating in the US. I am baffled, and would appreciate any comments, as to why the type rating is £10,000 cheaper Is this just another case of rip-off Europe!?

[Wave Drag Jones]

Not wishing to attract serious US bad feeling but from what I have heard the quality in the states can IN SOME CASES be quite poor.

I know a guy who did a type rating over there and said he kept waiting for the instructors to say "actually just kidding, this is your real instructor" It was that bad. By the end of the course he felt he knew next to nothing about the aircraft and had to learn as he went.

disclaimer: this was a mass training session for a cargo company needing a lot of pilots trained quickly and he felt they were rushed through.

Even if the quality is perhaps not that good it is still a very large price difference.

WDJ