CTC McAlpine/easyJet/JMC Sponsorship Selection

[busz]

Hey guys, finally doing something about this flying sponsorship lark. I have stage 2 on the 12th of May. Im very nervous but i hopefully will be ok on the day. just wondering if anyone else will be making the trek then.

Regards

Alex

[ballyboley]

Stage 2

Im going to Stage 2 on 18th May - anyone else going that day?

Just wonding about a few things from those who have gone before -

What does everyone wear on the day?
What is involved with the numeracy tests and how could one best prepare for these?
Any other tips would be welcome!

Many thanks,

[Spankee]

Hello,

I wore a comfortable pair of slacks with brown brogues and a pastel coloured oxford style shirt. There was one guy who wore a bright purple suit and another who refused to take his huge overcoat off - these two didn't make stage 3, quelle surprise.

The numeracy test involves some mathematical problems, which were fairly undemanding. One could prepare in two ways. Firstly, BBCi will teach those who have forgotten GCSE maths about long division. Secondly, Mother (or suitable guardian/friend) could fire maths problems at the hopeful candidate for one hour per day in the weeks preceding the test.

As far as any other tips go, just be yourself (unless this could be a hindrance) and read back on this thread.

Follow the above and you may be visiting Airfix Road sooner than you think

[Jeremy D]

Sorry for the late reply Mattd,

But you know, time is very hard to find. I am really busy at work lately as well and having some problems with my internet connection.

Anyway, I don't really know why they cancelled the 5ht May & 12th May session. Mary Brown just told me that they were cancelled due to UNFORSEEN circumstances.

At least they managed to tell me in time before I bought my flight ticket. I would have prefered to do the 2nd stage on the 5th however. Well, at least the weather might be a bit warmer by the 18th in England.


Busz, have they notified you that the 12th May session was cancelled or is it still on for some people?

Ballybolen..... nice to meet you!!


I am looking forward to meeting you all in person on the 18th.


Hey guys, have you already arranged for accomodation? Where are you planning on staying?

I think I would be presenting myself with dark trousers, a nice shirt and a pair of shoes. I think it would be enough as long as it looks smart. Do you think a tie is recommended?

I am quite concerned about this selection process since I dont even have one flying hour logged to my name. I had started doing my PPL about 4 years ago but could not afford the flying time. It is so expensive in my area.



With regards to the tests In suppose that its the time limit that makes it so hard. Good judgment of time (especially since the previous stage 2 tryers said that you cannot scroll back to check your answer once you pass it) and a calm focused mind that remains concentrated (even though you start realisinig that you are running out of time) are two critical factors in my opinion.


Does anyone know what are the time limits of the tests, approximately? and till what time does it take to call it a day?


Thanks


Take care guys

Jeremy

[Mattd]

Hey Jeremy,

I've rebooked and got the 18th May as well, hope to see you then!

As for clothing I won't be let out of the house in anything other than a suit and tie!

Matt

[ballyboley]

Thanks for replyin guys.


Im going to get the train from SOU to Christchurch (travellin from Belfast so it's costing me a fortune!)

CTC can provide you witha list of good B&B's in the area.

I would agree that a smart shirt, trousers and shoes would be best.

So does anyone have any more tips on the actual stage 2 selection - what sort of numeracy tests are involved etc?

I am looking forward to meeting you people on the 18th!


David

[Biggles_WannaB]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to wish you all the very best of luck for the 18th!

I went through stages 2 & 3 quite a few months back. From what I remember they were both highly taxing days, very stressful. But that was just my personal experience, and no matter what the outcome you will all take a lot away with you - I know I did.

Just a word of warning though, I don’t know if the dress code has gotten a lot more casual since I was there but all of the guys (and even us girlies) at my stages wore suits and ties. It might be best to go suited and booted just in case, I don’t think anyone would want to risk not making it through to the next stage just because they weren’t dressed appropriately.

Both Stages are usually an all day event – I think we eventually started making our way home at about 5 or 6 (but we did sit around chatting for a while!).

By the way, I stayed at Dibden Manor the first time round - which was nice and near, but quite expensive. There are other B&Bs nearby that are just as nice and quite a bit cheaper - I would definitely consider one of those if you're going by car. Then again, even if you’re not there are always taxis.

Most of my stage three stayed at a place called Dale House Farm (or Dale Farm House?) which is about 5 minutes away from CTC – I would recommend it. You can do a search on the net to get the details if you’re interested.

Well, again, good luck to you all & let us know how you get on!

BW

[DavidFuturePilot]

Well, didnt go well again down there

Dont know what happened this time, but felt like driving myself into the Solent at the time, since I had felt that things had gone better, which only made it feel worse in the end.

Anwyays, dont know how to convince them that I can fly, anyone offer any help?

Guess my low quals and no flying could count against me - think thats right?

Well good luck everyone

[Screwballs]

ballyboley

Hey ballyboley check your pm's.

As for what to wear: A suit. No two ways about it.

Screwballs

[Zlin246]

Hi,
Of the last few posts I only see one which indicates the session is still on for the 12th. I have already booked flights, B&B's etc. I have heard nothing from CTC to indicate that is not taking place however after reading the last few posts I'm getting concerned. Help! Someone please let me know I'm not alone. Are the selection team going to grill me alive along with one other applicant?? I dread to think.
For those of you who will be there on the 12th(hopefully), best of luck and see you there!
Zlin246

[busz]

Has anyone got the telephone number for CTC. I need to check with someone that my selection day is in fact still going ahead.

Alex

PS, hey Zlin, hope to see you there!!

[gliding777]

I believe the phone number is given somewhere else on this thread, otherwise you could try emailing Mary Brown direct, usually very helpful.

[busz]

I have just spoken to someone at Bournemouth and the selection day on the 12th is goin ahead. All you guys were gettin me worried for no reason

Regards

Alex

[wingdog]

Hi all,

new to prune, but wanted to join in the fun and socialise with some fellow CTC supporters!

Will anyone here be making their way down to the Lyndhurst Hotel on May 13th for a bash at phase 3? Not sure why there was a change of venue, but the hotel still looks very nice indeed.



Wingdog
_______

[Jeremy D]

hey sorry Busz!!! was never my intention to get you worried!!

Just was puzzled cause I was first booked for the 5th and they told me it was cancelled and that I could only do the phase 2 on the 18th. Moreover, when I tried to book, I did not have the 12th May option.


Mate, I wish you the best of luck.

As regards to the others, looking forward to meeting you on the 18th!

Jeremy

[KEO]

how much will it cost?

Hi All.

I have been doing some thinking around the financial implications of the CTC McAlpine cadet course.
Here are my thoughts:

Much of the chat around the cost of the scheme focuses on the £60k loan/bond, but I think some people are missing the point.
This amount is only going to become relevant if you leave/fail the course or don't get a job at the end.
Admittedly these are important factors but let us for the purposes of this argument consider that everything goes well and you get into the right hand seat with Easyjet. In this case the PARAMOUNT issue is what you get paid.
You can consider the loan, bond and repayments (from EJ to cadet and consequently from cadet to the bank) as an elaborate financing method which doesn't directly affect the cadet (the £1000pcm will roughly equal the loan repayment).

So assuming that a cadet takes the loan, gets through the course, doesn't spend too much time in the holding pool and gets taken on by EJ (with the bond) then the net affect to that cadet is as if the training has been paid for.....HOWEVER, the cadet now, obviously, gets a reduced salary at EJ. Not something that many people have made reference too - I’m surprised!
Viewed from this angle it is exactly like the BA scheme of years ago. The difference is in the bonding. BA would ask for money back if you left early, whereas easyjet will just retain the remainder of the bond they haven't repayed you.

Now, BA took £30k out of salary over 5 years. This was generous.
I think traditionally most airlines have taken £60 out - or a proportion of this.
bmi was £30k like BA, but required £15k up front (of course this £15k is from net earnings so equates to more than £45k out of salary - closer to £51k)
I believe Britannia asks for £15k up front and then takes £45k out of salary. Again because the £15k has to be found from net earnings (and potentially a loan) then this is not as beneficial to the cadet as taking the £60k out of salary.
But in any case £60k in some format seems to be the "figure" which seems the norm.

Now, in effect, EJ doesn't ask for any money up front, (based on the assumption of getting the job etc) and all the costs are taken from salary across 7 years
Looking at their website, a first officer starts on £31,789. Those who graduate from the cadet scheme start on £17,766. That is a reduction of £14,023!
Similarly, for senior first officer, cadet starting: £24,716, normal: £39,023
Captain. cadet: £48,000, normal: £64,363
So it seems that the reduction stays similar for senior first officer but if you make captain while still on cadet scale (quite likely at EJ) then the reduction is £16,363.
This all means that across 7 years you end up paying AT LEAST £98k back!! Perhaps as much as £110k if you make captain early.
For me this is the figure that needs to be at the forefront of a cadets mind.

Anyway, I just started writing this post with the idea of getting my thoughts down on paper - as i have done, it all sounds rather alarming! Maybe my sums are wrong, but it is definitely something I would want to take up with EJ if in that position.

It does seem funny that CTC McAlpine don't even mention the reduced salary AT ALL throughout the whole selection process, but do spend a long time talking about the £60k loan/bond package. Equally, it surprises me that on this thread people seem more preoccupied with the bond. Too caught up in the excitement of the thought of flying for an airline I guess. But when you're talking about the financial implications of the scheme, surely it is this £98k+ that is the real cost

btw - I am very keen.... but i am also rather interested in my potential earnings.

I would be interested to hear what peoples opinions on this are.

My questions are:
- do people agree that it is this £98k+ which needs comparing with other schemes/methods?
- Are people concerned about the 7 year bond and having no easy way out if they want to move on?
- Perhaps this is why some people do white tail courses!?

[Caracul]

KEO , I think you are wrong on a few points, just my opinion.

Firstly, as you rightly say, the 60k isn't really an issue. If I were to get onto the scheme (I can only hope), and if I were to fail/dropout, it might become one. However I'm not really planning to fail, and so to think about that is a bit pessimistic.

I would imagine that all those that are truly devoted to getting a commercial airline job, and those that are committed to trying their best to get a CTC place, would have researched the industry and the terms of the sponsorship. CTC have clear links on their pages to both Thomas Cook, and to Easyjet. Surely if you are considering working for a company, you will look at the pay off your own bat?

So you click on the link, and shock horror, they don't pay as much as if you had approached them with all the hours and licenses in place. There are a couple of things to consider.

Firstly, they are taking a huge risk. Admittedly there are the 6 months prior to actually handing over a contract, but every single pilot that has come from CTC has had 2 years. No matter how good the training, there is always the risk attached.

Secondly, they have just paid for your training. Awfully nice of them. 98K over 7 years, compared to 60K over two? Not too much difference, considering that a high street bank will probably offer 6%.

But the biggest slip in your logic is this:

As a graduand of the CTC scheme, things look promising. IF you haven't had an offer from an airline yet, then the chances are high that you will be soon. I was told that CTC had never had cadets left over at the end of training, and I beleive them. These chances, compared to the chances of a pilot who trained under his own steam are hugely in your favour.(Straight out of flying school I mean. Obviously the higher the number of hours you get, then the more the odds will level out).

So you have a lower salary? You have just been trained (for free) and have gone straight into a job. Something most people would...maybe not kill for...but certainly offer lots for. Consider this;

Which one is better:
Free training (to a standard that the sponsoring airlines approve) and the rapid succesion from training to a job.

Paying out of your own pocket for training before waiting around for a year or two, with the debt heavy round your neck, trying to find a job.

I know which I want.
Just my 2p is all.
Cheers,
Caracul

P.s I haven't even mentioned New Zealand!

[nicksmalley]

I am sort in between the two of you on this topic.

Easyjet haven't really 'paid' for your training for free! Thats the whole point of the payscale - no such thing as a free lunch especially in the airline industry.

However, i look at it from this angle - if i was a qualified commercial pilot in the right hand seat at EJ, I could start off on 31K. Lovely....i would say. A nice little earner to start my career on....i would say.

The thing is, I'm not a qualified pilot so its money I'm never gonna see. If I was a qualified brain surgeon I could be raking it in....but I'm not.

There's too much emphasis put on 'what you could be earning'. I sack that off and try to decide whether the reduced payscale is enough to live on. As long as the loan repayments are balanced off roughly by the payments from EJ, I will still be earning 17K. Now I'm guessing this 17K is basic, thus it is possible to maybe earn more by putting a few more hours in if rules allow. With the amount of flying you'll be doing, you'll soon be climbing the ladder and earning a more respectable wage. That ladder climb will also probably be faster than other industries such as working for an engineering firm or such like.

As a Aero Eng student, Rolls Royce would offer me 21K to sit in an office all day to play with turbine blades......zzzzzZZZZZZZ. 7 years later I may be lucky enough to be scraping at 30K pa ( if im lucky). Yes the reduction in the payscale does seem daunting, ain't that bad when you compare it to other places. And just think once that 7 years are over - hello FAT paycheck every month for doing a job that is far more interesting than standing around the water cooler chatting up the minger from the HR department.

I'm still wary of the whole money situation, however, I try to simply look at the money that would be passing in and out of my account to decide whether its worthwhile.

PS Would rather face the payscale than pay 40K out in the states getting my ATPL only to come back and be stuck showing a spotty 16 year old how to fly at some backward flying club for peanuts cos i can't get an airline job - it happens

Would love to hear your thoughts on it!

Cheers all

Nick

[gliding777]

With regard to the money that a graduate of the CTC-McAlpine scheme will earn, I feel that some of you are missing the point.

Yes, you will earn significantly less as a cadet than you would as a direct-entry F/O with x00/x000 hours, as is the case with Thomas Cook. Yes, the basic salary is around £17k, but with sector pay and allowances etc this could increase by ~£5k. I did an engineering degree and the starting salary for a graduate of my 4-year degree course would be £21k max (based in London) and as nicksmalley pointed out, the scale doesn't rise that steeply either.

However with eJ/TCX salary scales, the money does rise relatively quickly. Surely it comes down to how much you want the job - I for one will be most happy to sit in the RHS and not be overly bothered about the so-called "reduced" salary, it is because I want to be there. The £60k bond can be put to one side because eJ/TCX will re-pay it for you effectively on top of and in addition to, , your monthly salary.

Cheers

[KEO]

Mr Nicksmalley

you make some good points on this.
Indeed what you have to ask yourself is how much you want the job, that is the important thing, and yes the comparisons across other industries is valid and certainly captures the wider picture/choices.

But, Mr Caracul, you sound a bit confused. The training is NOT free. Who are you trying to kid. CTC also say the scheme is fully sponsored. It isn't. Not even the old BA one was fully sponsored, the difference was you saw £30k come out of your salary on this one and £98k with EJ.
People take this option because it is the least risky available at the moment (bar Brittannia perhaps), not necessarily the most cost effective.

My main comparison was between EJ and previous airline cadet pay scales (+ Brittania).
It is just that the £98k sounds to me a bit extortionate! Has anyone else done the frown inducing calculations? Before looking at the actual figures, I assumed the reduction would be £60k over 7 years.
Plus, i didn't even mention the £1k a month for 6 months deal. This adds a few more grand on top

Secondly, they have just paid for your training. Awfully nice of them. 98K over 7 years, compared to 60K over two? Not too much difference, considering that a high street bank will probably offer 6%.
The above: well do your maths. £60k over 2 years with interest is £67416. even over 7 years (as this is the period of the bond) it is £90k, but that is a simple compound interest calculation without considering that you are paying money back during the time. I guess it is more like £84k as surprise, this is the amount EJ give you to pay back the loan.

Too much maths....i guess my main gripe is this:
The training is NOT free
The training DOES NOT cost you a £60k bond (hopefully you get the job and don't fail)
The training costs you £98k+ out of your salary. Simple. And this seems to me a little dear. You could fund it much cheaper yourself...... I KNOW - you then have to consider the saving versus the risk

Look, I am not saying it is a bad option, far from it, but i do think it is expensive. I would love to know what it actually all costs CTC/EJ