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Advanced UPRT

Old 24th Jan 2020, 14:52
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Your ICAO reference is still totally irrelevant as it alludes to an experience not a learned skill - which is gained on type. I honestly donít value a 3 hour flight experience as useful training as i will have forgotten it within 6 months. If ICAO are that bothered then UPRT should form a bigger part of the PPL & CPL syllabus. Thereís a reason why airlines donít have SEP trainers sat around for us to fly...
I have to agree to an extent. All I can say is that there was little I took away from the experience. It was fun, but the majority of the concepts were taught to me at PPL stage. That goes for the recognition, dealing with and prevention of stalls and unusual attitudes.

Great instructors, and a brilliant experience. But itís applicability to an airline environment I just canít see. I would be all for more upset recovery training in the sim for type ratings and LPC/OCCs. But mandatory in an SEP? Nein Danke.

I have complete and utter respect for instructors and ATOs and their professionalism. However, training providers must be rubbing their hands knowing every single new licence holder has to give them another £2k for this.

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Old 24th Jan 2020, 15:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Rottweiler22 View Post

I have complete and utter respect for instructors and ATOs and their professionalism. However, training providers must be rubbing their hands knowing every single new licence holder has to give them another £2k for this.
Itís a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 15:51
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Itís a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.
I feel this could become something like the Driver CPC in haulage. The entire industry is against it... Except the training providers.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 16:31
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
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If the 3 hours were just added as part of the CPL then it would be valuable training and the cost wouldn’t be such an issue.. Expecting guys to pay £££ after their training and demanding it as a pre-job requisite for a 737 TR is just a joke.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 17:36
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: U.K
Posts: 67
Seems to me that when i were a lad we were taught full stalls, spinning etc at ppl level. Did it again for Bcpl, cpl and again if you did an instructor course. This exposed you to the real life sensations that a sim canít.
Now yoofs of today ainít had that and panic at anything over 25 degrees of bank and the flight director isnít aligned.
These guys have never had to think for themselves, led by the nose by the ďsystemĒ and many posts reflects his, they know the books but canít ďflyĒ
Not their fault itís the syllabus and cost/profit.
As many things nowadays when they improve something be that a computer program, taste of ready meals, the list is very long they cock it up, seems same for flight training, it donít work and to save face they try and patch it up instead of fixing it costing thousands to the student but with little benefit.

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Old 24th Jan 2020, 17:57
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Simmple, correct.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 18:58
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
If the 3 hours were just added as part of the CPL then it would be valuable training and the cost wouldnít be such an issue..
If you do the ATP integrated course or MPL then the advanced UPRT is part of the course.

The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.

If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 19:19
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Originally Posted by Rivet gun View Post

The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.

If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.
I’m afraid this doesn’t wash. Over 95% of people undertaking modular training is for a f-atpl and they choose that route as it’s financially often the only way to do so. Also, the earnings statement doesn’t wash either as that is irrelevant and is used by ATO’s to justify absolute BS pricing for such courses. Once upon a time you only needed a CPL / IR. Then they added an MCC requirement, then came along an optional JOC (basically the first day of TR), now the APS and now UPRT-A. The additional costs are adding up to over 10k for approximately 3 hours of actual flying time, which is SEP PU/T...
It’s quite straight forward, there’s a line and that line is being pushed further and further towards pilots instead of companies. Enough is enough.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 22:52
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.

Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.

But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.

Last edited by Rivet gun; 25th Jan 2020 at 08:10.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 23:53
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Iím not entirely sure hot shot £500 hr fast jet skygods are essential to deliver a 3 hour UPRT flight experience. incorporating this training into cpl would suffice if itís as important as they make out. Otherwise scrap it all together and continue with the way itís always worked. If it ainít broke...
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 08:33
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
If it ain’t broke...
From IATA (2019)

"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."

I don't know how much UPRT instructors are paid (I would like someone to tell me) but perhaps similar to TRI or MCCI would be reasonable for an instructor with significant airline flying experience?

Part-FCL does not actually require UPRT instructors to have multi pilot or turbine engine aircraft experience but it does say that the safety and potential human factor implications of poor upset recovery instructional technique or misleading information are more significant than in any other areas of pilot training. It seems to me therefore that UPRT instructors would need to understand transport aircraft: how they handle and how they are operated by a two pilot crew.

Last edited by Rivet gun; 25th Jan 2020 at 09:20.
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 08:37
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Originally Posted by Rivet gun View Post
From IATA (2019)

"Loss of Control Ė Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."
So 3 hours in an SEP at the beginning of ones career is going to prevent that? I think not.
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 18:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: bilbao
Posts: 7
Hey guys starting type rating in March/April I wanted to know in which school they have already the advanced uprt course fully certificated for Easa fcl.745.a , Iím based in Spain so the shorter distance from here the better, thanks in advanced guys I appreciate any response, good flights
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 09:57
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 296
The 737 MAX accidents have got nothing to do with it. The AF447 triggered the whole thing.
The MAX issues are Boeing's fault.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 12:36
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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EASA decided upon this before both the MAX incidents...
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 12:49
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 52
Advanced UPRT was planned to be put into place much earlier than both 737max incidents.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 13:55
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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When Easa did state this new requirement?

Last edited by inabw; 21st Feb 2020 at 11:14.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 15:53
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Goodwood
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Originally Posted by Rivet gun View Post
If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.

Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.

But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.
And some airlines are indeed paying for this training. Titan Airways recently introduced a Cadet programme where they pay for APS MCC at VA Airline Training and UPRT-A at the Ultimate High UPRT Academy.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 16:03
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Originally Posted by greeners View Post
And some airlines are indeed paying for this training. Titan Airways recently introduced a Cadet programme where they pay for APS MCC at VA Airline Training and UPRT-A at the Ultimate High UPRT Academy.

No other airlines other than Titan are paying for this training. Presumably because they think its a total con also.

Last edited by Contact Approach; 26th Jan 2020 at 19:08.
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Old 28th Jan 2020, 21:23
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: LELL
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Highflyerp View Post
I found out today from an organisation in the UK that nowhere in the UK has approval from the CAA yet.. then this was confirmed by the CAA in a phonecall shortly after.. does this mean the ďAdvanced UPRTĒ you do may not even be valid for the type rating?
Same happens in Spain, although any school is advertising the A-UPRT course down here. The Spanish CAA told me to do it somewhere else approved by EASAÖI donít understand how come EASA/national CAA did not plan an approval time before the regulation coming into forceÖ
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