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Advanced UPRT

Old 10th Oct 2019, 22:30
  #1 (permalink)  
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Advanced UPRT

Hi guys,

I have a question about that new training (advanced UPRT, or FCL.745) which will be mandatory for any first Type Rating courses starting after December 20, 2019. From what I understand, all the trainees out of school and not T/R yet are all pretty much f**cked up ? It seems that almost no ATOs have amended their courses yet or are not able to provide it for the time being, or at least it is the case in my country. It is very frustrating as no one seems to know anything clear about it, but still we have to have it now otherwise we're unable to apply to some airlines nor can we start a T/R course. Does anyone have it or has passed it recently ?
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Old 11th Oct 2019, 14:46
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My airline does UPRT every six months and has done so for the past 3-4 years. New joiners get it as part of their type rating. Join an airline and you will get the required training as part of your type rating.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 12:57
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The Advanced UPRT requirement FCL.745.A is specifically On-aircraft training and cannot be delivered in a Sim. My organisation Ultimate High is one of a number that will be able to deliver this course.

And yes, anybody commencing a Type Rating after 20th December - in 52 days - WILL need to have completed an FCL.745.A programme.

greeners is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2019, 13:46
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Originally Posted by greeners View Post
The Advanced UPRT requirement FCL.745.A is specifically On-aircraft training and cannot be delivered in a Sim. My organisation Ultimate High is one of a number that will be able to deliver this course.

And yes, anybody commencing a Type Rating after 20th December - in 52 days - WILL need to have completed an FCL.745.A programme.
Another BS course. Just to increase revenue and profits to flight schools. More money to be sucked out of students pockets. And for what? In every airline you get theoretical training and training for UPRT in sim. I seriously dont see the point of do that stuff in a SEP.

Fist years ago we got MCC. A course which is ACTUALLY useful.

Then like 7 yrs ago the JOC. Which in my opinion stuff you learn in one of first sessions anyway during TR.

Then we got the APS which is ALMOST a whole TR and costs in many cases almost the same. With result. You just have some certificate which is NOT a TR anyway.

And to make training even MORE expensive now the UPRT.

Airlines better change their point of view regarding Automation. Especially going straight from Flightschool to Airbus job with MAX automation instead of a little bit more freedom with Handflying. THAT is where accidents come from. By getting more chance to do hand flying and Raw Data makes you a better pilot. Accidents such as AF447 was preventable if they just still knew basic flying skills.

Of course you can do that raw data flying preferably on smaller airports. Big int. Airports is not nice for your PM. But honestly I also notice it that not many cpts like it when I tell then I want to do some raw data. All autopilot is preferred. Sad actually for the above mentioned reasons.

Summary: EASA and the flights schools playing the same game to help each other creating more revenue aka profit. And for what? For actually nothing. I feel sorry for the newbees.

Nevertheless doing for fun Aerobatic training is nice to do I think. But as a requirement. 🤢. Pfff.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 12:57
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https://trainwithcae.com/upset-preve...-training-uprt

I imagine UPRT is going to be incorporated into initial type rating in the simulator. The only airline that was asking for UPRT for NTR position was TUI for whatever reason.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 16:10
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Originally Posted by P40Warhawk View Post
Of course you can do that raw data flying preferably on smaller airports. Big int. Airports is not nice for your PM. But honestly I also notice it that many cpts like it when I tell then I want to do some raw data. All autopilot is preferred. Sad actually for the above mentioned reasons.
At the last outfit I was at raw data was not allowed. The Flight Director had to be used if hand flying.
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 12:23
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Originally Posted by Hawker400 View Post
https://trainwithcae.com/upset-preve...-training-uprt

I imagine UPRT is going to be incorporated into initial type rating in the simulator. The only airline that was asking for UPRT for NTR position was TUI for whatever reason.
Hello Hawker400,

Unfortunately this is not correct. Under FCL.745.A, Advanced UPRT - Aeroplane, all candidates commencing their initial multi crew type rating will have to have completed Advanced UPRT - Aeroplane, in accordance with FCL.745.A, prior to starting said initial rating. This regulation comes into effect on 20th December 2019. The CAE material you have read and posted refers to CS-FSTD(A) and covers regulatory requirements for FSTD's to be compliant for the UPRT - Simulator training elements.

I hope that this helps,

Best Regards,
Rob
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 16:51
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Originally Posted by P40Warhawk View Post
Another BS course. Just to increase revenue and profits to flight schools. More money to be sucked out of students pockets. And for what? In every airline you get theoretical training and training for UPRT in sim. I seriously dont see the point of do that stuff in a SEP.

Fist years ago we got MCC. A course which is ACTUALLY useful.

Then like 7 yrs ago the JOC. Which in my opinion stuff you learn in one of first sessions anyway during TR.

Then we got the APS which is ALMOST a whole TR and costs in many cases almost the same. With result. You just have some certificate which is NOT a TR anyway.
. 🤢. Pfff.
To quote an old hand when I was in my youth “IF YOU THINK TRAINING IS EXPENSIVE WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT”

Under CAP509 prior to JAR and EASA, the UK CAA approved a CPL/IR syllabus for British Aerospace Flying College, Prestwick where, what is now described as UPRT, was taught together with spinning and the 5 basic aerobatic manoeuvres. The AS202 Bravo, a wonderful Swiss aerobatic aircraft was used for those under training.
Not only did it give confidence, in the most unlikely event an unusual attitude were to occur, then your training would “kick in”.
For those having a bitch and a moan simply fail to appreciate the benefit delivered by this new (reintroduced) course. Read the first paragraph again.......
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 20:20
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EASA had explained that this training module was coming since 2015 and delayed the cut-off date you mention from April 2018 to December 2019. You can ask your training provider why they didn't offer this course, but I assume the answer would be that they didn't have the required equipment (the answer being a lack of aerobatic aircraft/appropriately qualified trainers). I assume that except for integrated 'frozen ATPLs' courses, you asked them for a CPL/IR or similar in a modular fashion. Consider this training just another module that you decided not to fit into your plan. There is however, surely some onus on yourself for not being aware of the appropriate regulations as some regulatory knowledge is part of being a pilot.

As much as you might disagree with the benefit and requirement of the training, it's a good thing and something that unfortunately wasn't part of the license when I had a go (aerobatics are fun!). There is surely some onus on yourself for not being aware of the appropriate regulations as some regulatory knowledge is part of being a pilot.

2015 Notice of Proposed Amendment - Loss of control prevention and recovery training: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...%202015-13.pdf

Last edited by giggitygiggity; 5th Nov 2019 at 02:15. Reason: Grammar
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 15:57
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do you guys know which schools provides this training ? and What is the cost?
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 06:47
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The problem is not the training itself, but its cost after one has invested so much money into flight training. Moreover, at an airline screening, the UPRT training knowledge is not going to make a significant difference and this is what matters right after training. At this moment, there're many ATOs which offer aerobatics courses and interestingly do not have an approved UPRT course.

Is anybody aware of an ATO offering UPRT courses in Eastern Europe?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 23:33
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Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfFoxtrot View Post
do you guys know which schools provides this training ? and What is the cost?
In the interests of transparency, the main schools offering FCL.745.A On-aircraft Advanced UPRT are as follows.

CRM at White Waltham
FPTUK at Shoreham
Ultimate High at Goodwood/Lee-on-Solent

I will declare my skin in the game as running the last organisation on the list. You'll make your own decision on who to fly with.
greeners is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2019, 14:44
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So December 20th has passed. What happens now?
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 22:07
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
So December 20th has passed. What happens now?
Did you start a type rating course?

If no, you need advanced UPRT.

CAE is already requesting on the intake forms.

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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 10:30
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What is the requirement for those that have not received UPRT training but already hold a type rating on a CS-25 aircraft and will soon need to do another one?
Because I haven't had my SEP in a year and half and going though renewal and UPRT would be quite expensive.
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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 17:57
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Yes I have the same question, I already have multi pilot multi engine aircraft type rating, and I am starting the new type in January...
questiony is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2019, 18:14
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Actually only few schools are providing this kind of training due the certification time: as reported on this website https://worldaviation.home.blog/2019...advanced-uprt/ the training requires 3 hours in flight and 5 hours on the ground;
I suppose should not be very expensive, if performed on a Cessna 150.
If you want to verify all the details and the requirements about this course, the official document it's this one https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...g_Part-FCL.pdf (from page 865 to page 872).

Last edited by inabw; 29th Dec 2019 at 11:15.
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 21:11
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I have an interview soon and having spoken to the Company they are quite happy to interview me without having done the AUPRT first. Proviso: successful interview then yes, I have to do it.
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 23:53
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Originally Posted by covec View Post
I have an interview soon and having spoken to the Company they are quite happy to interview me without having done the AUPRT first. Proviso: successful interview then yes, I have to do it.
Which company?
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Old 19th Jan 2020, 12:41
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I'm in exactly the same scenario. So guys be ready to do the course (and spend more money on flight training..).
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