Civil or Military?
Mate, IMHO you should only commit to the RN (or HM Forces in general) if you are 110% sure of what you are letting yourself in for: great people, great travel, but almost zero scope for family life. Can you accept this?
I'm RAF and have trained with RN rotary pilots so I speak from experience. Also, bear in mind that with the RAF you can tell them what you want to fly but they don't have to give it to you.
You could end up flying rotary for 2 years, get chopped, and then not be offered anything else!
Caveat Emptor!
I'm RAF and have trained with RN rotary pilots so I speak from experience. Also, bear in mind that with the RAF you can tell them what you want to fly but they don't have to give it to you.
You could end up flying rotary for 2 years, get chopped, and then not be offered anything else!
Caveat Emptor!
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crackerjack
I'm quite happy for people to feel that the military life is not for them, for whatever reason, but I tend to bridle at those who show a lack of respect or appreciation for what they do. Your comment about 'political puppets' is unnecessary.
Remember that you choose to live and work under the political system that we have in our country. This system is protected by those who choose to risk their lives defending it. If you find this system distasteful, you are at liberty to go and live somewhere else. That liberty was bought for you with the lives of those who believed that our country's system (and all its imperfections) was worth fighting for.
Rant over.
Excel I'm sure a quick visit to the CAA website would answer your rotary hours question, but I believe that most, if not all, of your hours would count. There are many ex-rotary jocks in Virgin to prove it!
I'm quite happy for people to feel that the military life is not for them, for whatever reason, but I tend to bridle at those who show a lack of respect or appreciation for what they do. Your comment about 'political puppets' is unnecessary.
Remember that you choose to live and work under the political system that we have in our country. This system is protected by those who choose to risk their lives defending it. If you find this system distasteful, you are at liberty to go and live somewhere else. That liberty was bought for you with the lives of those who believed that our country's system (and all its imperfections) was worth fighting for.
Rant over.
Excel I'm sure a quick visit to the CAA website would answer your rotary hours question, but I believe that most, if not all, of your hours would count. There are many ex-rotary jocks in Virgin to prove it!
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Hi guys!
By reading your threads, most of you seem to look at a military carreer as a sponsorship with time building. First you have to think if you could live the military way. If you fly Jet Fighter, would you mind to go bomb people for political/economical purposes, you don't even really know. Military is a way of life and thinking, I you feel ready, then go for it, I guess JF are the funniest fly ever. If not, go commercial, and if you want really fun, do some aerobatics on your own (not as fun, but dtill)
cheers
By reading your threads, most of you seem to look at a military carreer as a sponsorship with time building. First you have to think if you could live the military way. If you fly Jet Fighter, would you mind to go bomb people for political/economical purposes, you don't even really know. Military is a way of life and thinking, I you feel ready, then go for it, I guess JF are the funniest fly ever. If not, go commercial, and if you want really fun, do some aerobatics on your own (not as fun, but dtill)
cheers
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I think that one important issue to be looked at is not what you want to do in the next 10 years, but where you want to be in 20 years time.
Do you want to be flying an airliner for buckets of cash but a bit boring or possibly leading your own FJ SQN?
20 years might seem like a long time but by golly does it go past in a hurry.
Do you want to be flying an airliner for buckets of cash but a bit boring or possibly leading your own FJ SQN?
20 years might seem like a long time but by golly does it go past in a hurry.
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Scroggs,
Thanks mate, couldn't have put it better myself.
Excel Monkey,
Please don't take this the wrong way but what have you done to find out a bit more about how you're going to spend a large and important chunk of your life, other than fire off a few e-mails?
Go and visit a base, have a look round some of the hardware and most importantly spend a bit of time with some of the guys that do the job, have a couple of beers with them in the Mess/Wardroom and ask them all the questions you like. You're more likely to find find out whether it's the life for you or not there rather than in front of a computer screen.
If that all sounds a bit to difficult and too much effort/hard work then the job itself probably will be too.
Remember, life is not a dress rehearsal and don't end up still sat in front of your PC in twenty years time playing Eurofighter games wishing you'd had a go at the real thing.
Thanks mate, couldn't have put it better myself.
Excel Monkey,
Please don't take this the wrong way but what have you done to find out a bit more about how you're going to spend a large and important chunk of your life, other than fire off a few e-mails?
Go and visit a base, have a look round some of the hardware and most importantly spend a bit of time with some of the guys that do the job, have a couple of beers with them in the Mess/Wardroom and ask them all the questions you like. You're more likely to find find out whether it's the life for you or not there rather than in front of a computer screen.
If that all sounds a bit to difficult and too much effort/hard work then the job itself probably will be too.
Remember, life is not a dress rehearsal and don't end up still sat in front of your PC in twenty years time playing Eurofighter games wishing you'd had a go at the real thing.
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DummyRun,
I have been to a base (2 actually), seen the hardware, flown a Sea King, been for beers with Navy pilots, done my flight aps, done the AIB and had about 5 meetings with the local Navy careers guy. I also have 2 mates at BRNC right now and one who's just finished training as an engineer. This morning the letter came in saying I've made the grade for pilot (January entry). I've also got an offer of a commercial sponsorship.
The reason I asked the question in the first place is to try and get as many viewpoints and as much info as possible since I know there are ex-mil/current mil pilots (as well as civil pilots obviously) who use the site. I believe in getting as much info as possible before making a decision of as large a magnitude as this one, since, as you say, it will be a big chunk of my life.
This is by no means my sole research endeavour, it is, however, a supplement that may make my decision that little bit easier. There is no other medium available by which I can ask the military/commercial question to as many knowledgeable people.
Finally, whatever I choose to do, I will regret nothing, since living in the past or rueing an old decision is a pointless task; nonetheless I’d like to make the right choice in the first place.
Monkey
P.S. Thanks to all who have contributed.
I have been to a base (2 actually), seen the hardware, flown a Sea King, been for beers with Navy pilots, done my flight aps, done the AIB and had about 5 meetings with the local Navy careers guy. I also have 2 mates at BRNC right now and one who's just finished training as an engineer. This morning the letter came in saying I've made the grade for pilot (January entry). I've also got an offer of a commercial sponsorship.
The reason I asked the question in the first place is to try and get as many viewpoints and as much info as possible since I know there are ex-mil/current mil pilots (as well as civil pilots obviously) who use the site. I believe in getting as much info as possible before making a decision of as large a magnitude as this one, since, as you say, it will be a big chunk of my life.
This is by no means my sole research endeavour, it is, however, a supplement that may make my decision that little bit easier. There is no other medium available by which I can ask the military/commercial question to as many knowledgeable people.
Finally, whatever I choose to do, I will regret nothing, since living in the past or rueing an old decision is a pointless task; nonetheless I’d like to make the right choice in the first place.
Monkey
P.S. Thanks to all who have contributed.
Last edited by Excel Monkey; 21st Nov 2002 at 09:48.
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Excel Monkey,
Given your situation I would take the RN option.
I was short service in the RAF many moons ago. I didn't quite make it to a squadron (truckie) and left after five years. I completed my CPL on a mix of civil and mil hours. I have had a varied time in the airlines and been on the wrong side of the line during two recessions. I have flown with some brilliant guys (and girls) and have had some amazing experiences as an airline pilot.
However . . .
I am now 40 and trying to figure out a decent future for my family in a very turbulent market. The prospects for stabilty in terms of location and salary are not good and I am beginning to question the whole thing.
If I could roll my own dice I would choose a 12 year commission and then and airline career. I fly with ex RN helo pilots and they are a great bunch. The service has shaped them well as characters and individuals. If you take the Queens Shilling then you must be prepared to go anywhere, anytime in Her service without question.
In todays market the airline sponsorship might dissapear overnight and leave you with nothing. Even if the RN didn't work out you will, at the very least, find out lots about yourself as a character and that can only bring you good.
My final advice is to always be brave when you encounter adverse circumstances. Its the only option and it always works!
Given your situation I would take the RN option.
I was short service in the RAF many moons ago. I didn't quite make it to a squadron (truckie) and left after five years. I completed my CPL on a mix of civil and mil hours. I have had a varied time in the airlines and been on the wrong side of the line during two recessions. I have flown with some brilliant guys (and girls) and have had some amazing experiences as an airline pilot.
However . . .
I am now 40 and trying to figure out a decent future for my family in a very turbulent market. The prospects for stabilty in terms of location and salary are not good and I am beginning to question the whole thing.
If I could roll my own dice I would choose a 12 year commission and then and airline career. I fly with ex RN helo pilots and they are a great bunch. The service has shaped them well as characters and individuals. If you take the Queens Shilling then you must be prepared to go anywhere, anytime in Her service without question.
In todays market the airline sponsorship might dissapear overnight and leave you with nothing. Even if the RN didn't work out you will, at the very least, find out lots about yourself as a character and that can only bring you good.
My final advice is to always be brave when you encounter adverse circumstances. Its the only option and it always works!
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Military Backgrounds... What's involved?
Hey
I haven't posted around here recently (my last one being, what, perhaps two months ago?), purely due to the time I have been spending studying for school!
Anyway, as some of you may know, I am 14 with aspirations to fly the 747-400 some day, and all the help I was given in my last topic proceeded my knowledge a great deal on how I should achieve this ambition.
After reviewing all the replies to my and others' topics, I have come up with three different routes I could take, so I'll stop babbling and get on with it:
First way: Achieve reasonable (hehe) GCSEs and 'A' Levels then study either Aerodynamics or Aerospacial Engineering at a respectable university, and continue to get a Degree from the subject in question, from which I shall apply for a sponsored place in the EasyJet scheme. And from there on, I will grow my hours until, well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it!
The 'Chair To Fall Back On' way: If the above route does not work out for me (although I remain in a positive mood about it!), my step from there on would be, with my education, train for a CFI PPL Rating (if you are not familiar, this means an Instructor who can only instruct students for the PPL, which excludes such areas as Night, IMC etc) , and see where it takes me from there.
However.......
The Military way!
I will not even bother to try and explain how I will achieve this, because this is where I come to the question of the title: What exactly is involved in a Military background?
To be more specific, what is involved in becoming a civilian pilot following a Military Background?
Just to emphasize my question a bit, and to help you answer it, I am particularly interested in the Fighter Jet (Harrier, F-14, Dagger) area than the large aircraft (Transport, Bombing, B-52 etc) as I would rather remain 'in action' than carry supplies, if you know what I mean.
Especially now that the War On Iraq is beginning to kick off, I guess you could call me one of those foolish people who wants to become an air ace in 80 days!
If you will excuse my contradiction, I would of course prefer the 'straight' route (Firdt Way I mentioned), however if the CFI doesn't take me anywhere, I really would like some information on how you become a civil pilot from the military,
- How long do you serve for?
- What sort of pay is there?
- What kind of contracts do you sign?
Questions such as that are really the ones that need answering, but anything that would generally improve my knowledge on the matter would be greatly appreciated
Thanks,
Jack.
I haven't posted around here recently (my last one being, what, perhaps two months ago?), purely due to the time I have been spending studying for school!
Anyway, as some of you may know, I am 14 with aspirations to fly the 747-400 some day, and all the help I was given in my last topic proceeded my knowledge a great deal on how I should achieve this ambition.
After reviewing all the replies to my and others' topics, I have come up with three different routes I could take, so I'll stop babbling and get on with it:
First way: Achieve reasonable (hehe) GCSEs and 'A' Levels then study either Aerodynamics or Aerospacial Engineering at a respectable university, and continue to get a Degree from the subject in question, from which I shall apply for a sponsored place in the EasyJet scheme. And from there on, I will grow my hours until, well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it!
The 'Chair To Fall Back On' way: If the above route does not work out for me (although I remain in a positive mood about it!), my step from there on would be, with my education, train for a CFI PPL Rating (if you are not familiar, this means an Instructor who can only instruct students for the PPL, which excludes such areas as Night, IMC etc) , and see where it takes me from there.
However.......
The Military way!
I will not even bother to try and explain how I will achieve this, because this is where I come to the question of the title: What exactly is involved in a Military background?
To be more specific, what is involved in becoming a civilian pilot following a Military Background?
Just to emphasize my question a bit, and to help you answer it, I am particularly interested in the Fighter Jet (Harrier, F-14, Dagger) area than the large aircraft (Transport, Bombing, B-52 etc) as I would rather remain 'in action' than carry supplies, if you know what I mean.
Especially now that the War On Iraq is beginning to kick off, I guess you could call me one of those foolish people who wants to become an air ace in 80 days!
If you will excuse my contradiction, I would of course prefer the 'straight' route (Firdt Way I mentioned), however if the CFI doesn't take me anywhere, I really would like some information on how you become a civil pilot from the military,
- How long do you serve for?
- What sort of pay is there?
- What kind of contracts do you sign?
Questions such as that are really the ones that need answering, but anything that would generally improve my knowledge on the matter would be greatly appreciated
Thanks,
Jack.
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Well, if you want to use the military as a stepping stone you may find you have more on your plate than you bargained for!
To become a pilot in the RAF you will need to stay on until you are 38 or have done 16 years service(I think that is right). Any chance of leaving early costs heavily.
As for a spot of Iraqi bombing it will take 3 years to train you and then the compulsary 2 years holding waiting for a squadron!, so you may be in for a bit of a wait.
You also may want to check up on your aircraft types before you go for selection in 3 years time as you quoted mainly US types!!!!(you will only see them flying at you)
Other than that, good luck with your exams...they will probably be the determining factor on your choice.
To become a pilot in the RAF you will need to stay on until you are 38 or have done 16 years service(I think that is right). Any chance of leaving early costs heavily.
As for a spot of Iraqi bombing it will take 3 years to train you and then the compulsary 2 years holding waiting for a squadron!, so you may be in for a bit of a wait.
You also may want to check up on your aircraft types before you go for selection in 3 years time as you quoted mainly US types!!!!(you will only see them flying at you)
Other than that, good luck with your exams...they will probably be the determining factor on your choice.
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You are either committed to being a military pilot or you are not. If the latter is the case, you will fall at the first hurdle.
Even in this day and age, the Armed Forces require more of their aircrew than simply the ability to drive airframes. Whilst it is accepted that not everyone in the military stays on until faced with retirement, using Mrs Windsor's flying school simply as a stepping stone to becoming a systems manager ferrying the great unwashed is unlikely to be viewed sympathetically.
Take my comments in the spirit in which they are meant. Be absolutely sure in your own mind as to your motives (and indeed motivation) before considering the military.
Bon chance!
Even in this day and age, the Armed Forces require more of their aircrew than simply the ability to drive airframes. Whilst it is accepted that not everyone in the military stays on until faced with retirement, using Mrs Windsor's flying school simply as a stepping stone to becoming a systems manager ferrying the great unwashed is unlikely to be viewed sympathetically.
Take my comments in the spirit in which they are meant. Be absolutely sure in your own mind as to your motives (and indeed motivation) before considering the military.
Bon chance!
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This topic has been covered very well on previous posts. Have a look at this thread.
Basically, it's a bad idea to join the RAF unless you have complete commitment to the idea of fighting for and, if necessary, dying for your country.
Fine if you have. Not so good if you haven't. Think about it very carefully.
Basically, it's a bad idea to join the RAF unless you have complete commitment to the idea of fighting for and, if necessary, dying for your country.
Fine if you have. Not so good if you haven't. Think about it very carefully.
Last edited by oxford blue; 10th Mar 2003 at 10:11.
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Halfbaked
Joining the military is a very serious step, and one you should think carefully about. As a military pilot you can, as many are right now, be tasked with killing other people while being at considerable risk of losing your own life. Be very sure that you understand this fact before you go any further.
If you decide that you can cope with these concepts, you must then make some effort to learn about the routes to becoming a military pilot. All three services in the UK employ pilots. The Army and Royal Navy use mainly helicopters, though there are a very limited number of Sea Harriers, Hawks and Jetstreams to be flown in the RN. The RAF flies many different kinds of aircraft in offensive, defensive, transport, reconnaissance and other support roles. No service gives you the choice of what type of aircraft you fly; you will fly what you are told to fly!
All military pilots have responsibilities other than flying. In the RAF and the RN, you have to be an Officer to be a pilot. Officers undergo a great deal of training in all sorts of areas that you might not associate with flying aeroplanes. You may well be responsible for other people, and their welfare, in a number of different ways. You will certainly have a good deal of other work to do!
Your Commission will normally be for at least 12 years (a Short Service Commission) in the RAF, possibly less in the RN. Candidates for entry into the Services will be closely examined on their motivation for joining - using the RAF as a stepping-stone to your dream of flying a 747-400 will not go down too well!
Pay and conditions in the Services are pretty good these days; a Flight Lieutenant pilot will earn around £40k on promotion I believe.
You should check out RAF Careers website for more information.
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]
Joining the military is a very serious step, and one you should think carefully about. As a military pilot you can, as many are right now, be tasked with killing other people while being at considerable risk of losing your own life. Be very sure that you understand this fact before you go any further.
If you decide that you can cope with these concepts, you must then make some effort to learn about the routes to becoming a military pilot. All three services in the UK employ pilots. The Army and Royal Navy use mainly helicopters, though there are a very limited number of Sea Harriers, Hawks and Jetstreams to be flown in the RN. The RAF flies many different kinds of aircraft in offensive, defensive, transport, reconnaissance and other support roles. No service gives you the choice of what type of aircraft you fly; you will fly what you are told to fly!
All military pilots have responsibilities other than flying. In the RAF and the RN, you have to be an Officer to be a pilot. Officers undergo a great deal of training in all sorts of areas that you might not associate with flying aeroplanes. You may well be responsible for other people, and their welfare, in a number of different ways. You will certainly have a good deal of other work to do!
Your Commission will normally be for at least 12 years (a Short Service Commission) in the RAF, possibly less in the RN. Candidates for entry into the Services will be closely examined on their motivation for joining - using the RAF as a stepping-stone to your dream of flying a 747-400 will not go down too well!
Pay and conditions in the Services are pretty good these days; a Flight Lieutenant pilot will earn around £40k on promotion I believe.
You should check out RAF Careers website for more information.
Scroggs
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[email protected]
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Have to agree with Scroggs here.
The services really won't take kindly to you using them to get into the airlines (though I know several friends who have), and your commitment to the services will be tested to extremes long before you get anywhere near an a/c. For the RAF, initial officer training is something like 18 weeks (assuming you pass first time), and it is hell. They will push you up to and beyond where you think your limits might be with good reason.
As for the flying itself, yeah it seems fantastically glamorous and all very Top Gun, but the reality is very different for most. Most fast jet pilots (current situation excepted) spend very little time in the air each month as a result of defence budget restraints, and if you have ever spent any time on an air force base, it is the absolute pits. You really don't know boredom until you have spent endless weekends living in a room in an officers mess at an airfield in the @rse end of beyond. The lifestyle really isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Finally, you might feel quite at ease with the idea of operational service and the prospect of having to kill or be killed. I always used to feel that way when I was your age and wanted to be a fighter pilot, but when the last Gulf War kicked off, I was involved with the RAF at the time and it REALLY brought it home to me just what was involved, and it is incredibly sobering. Some of my friends from those days are serving pilots with front line Tornado squadrons who have seen service in the Balkans and the Gulf, and have been shot at, and have also dropped bombs on real targets. While we can all laugh and joke about it over a beer, it is a serious business and they are only too well aware of the risks to themselves and the consequences of their actions if they get it wrong.
I think it is great you want to be a pilot so badly and I applaude you for having the foresight to ask so many questions so early, but if 747's are what float your boat then the RAF/RN/AAC really wouldn't be your best career choice. However, you might find out that once you know more about service life, airlines seem about as exciting as driving a bus for a living (everybody would rather be a rally/F1 driver wouldn't they?), albeit they seem to have got the pay muddled up.
Fortunately you have time (and enthusiasm) to figure it all out, so best of luck wherever you end up.
The services really won't take kindly to you using them to get into the airlines (though I know several friends who have), and your commitment to the services will be tested to extremes long before you get anywhere near an a/c. For the RAF, initial officer training is something like 18 weeks (assuming you pass first time), and it is hell. They will push you up to and beyond where you think your limits might be with good reason.
As for the flying itself, yeah it seems fantastically glamorous and all very Top Gun, but the reality is very different for most. Most fast jet pilots (current situation excepted) spend very little time in the air each month as a result of defence budget restraints, and if you have ever spent any time on an air force base, it is the absolute pits. You really don't know boredom until you have spent endless weekends living in a room in an officers mess at an airfield in the @rse end of beyond. The lifestyle really isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Finally, you might feel quite at ease with the idea of operational service and the prospect of having to kill or be killed. I always used to feel that way when I was your age and wanted to be a fighter pilot, but when the last Gulf War kicked off, I was involved with the RAF at the time and it REALLY brought it home to me just what was involved, and it is incredibly sobering. Some of my friends from those days are serving pilots with front line Tornado squadrons who have seen service in the Balkans and the Gulf, and have been shot at, and have also dropped bombs on real targets. While we can all laugh and joke about it over a beer, it is a serious business and they are only too well aware of the risks to themselves and the consequences of their actions if they get it wrong.
I think it is great you want to be a pilot so badly and I applaude you for having the foresight to ask so many questions so early, but if 747's are what float your boat then the RAF/RN/AAC really wouldn't be your best career choice. However, you might find out that once you know more about service life, airlines seem about as exciting as driving a bus for a living (everybody would rather be a rally/F1 driver wouldn't they?), albeit they seem to have got the pay muddled up.
Fortunately you have time (and enthusiasm) to figure it all out, so best of luck wherever you end up.
I think it's safe to say that no employer will quibble with a military trained pilot. If you have the time/inclination/ability to pursue a tour in your country's military as a pilot, you will get a pretty good reception at the employment office when you go job hunting.
There are several routes to a flying career. Take the military one; the price is right. All it costs you is your time, intellect, ability, and commitment.
There are several routes to a flying career. Take the military one; the price is right. All it costs you is your time, intellect, ability, and commitment.
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Originally Posted by George_08
For me to get my ATPL and fly for a certain airline - What would be the best form of training?? Via the airforce, or privately??
Si eres Español y quieres solamente sacar un carnet de vuelo, pues puede ser que no quieres una carrera militar y que te vas a utilisar esta entreñamiento por tu futuro adelante. Tienes que probar por el Ejercito que te gustarias una carrera con ellos por que quieres defender lo que tienes en tu vida, tu forma de democracia y lo que tu guardes especial en tu forma de viviencia, pero no te olvides que se gastaran muchisimo dinero para entrenarte y que es muy importante que puedes probar su inversion en ti.
George, If you speak English as a first language, then PM me and I will give you all of the help that I can.
Cheers, ECDI.
Last edited by EC Does It; 13th Jun 2006 at 00:37.
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Is Military the Option?
If you dont have enough money to support yourself to all these studies and such, should i join the military as an option to fly planes. Then retire from the army and slip in some airline company??Would that work. Can i get free license or something by doing that??
J_R
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sounds like a tempting option,both military and civilian flying has its ups and downs, im crossing over from military to civilian at the moment, i dont know much on the civilian side im afraid.
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If your motivation for joining the Armed Forces is simply to get someone else to pay for your flying and leave at the earliest opportunity, then forget it. You won't even pass selection let alone make it as a squadron pilot. You must really want to do it and, if you become officer aircrew, your primary duty is to the men and women under you. There is much, much more to being a military pilot than simply that of an airframe driver.
I realise that you are young but the Armed Forces is not the easy option you may think. You seriously need to examine what you want to do and why, before going down the military road.
Bon chance!
I realise that you are young but the Armed Forces is not the easy option you may think. You seriously need to examine what you want to do and why, before going down the military road.
Bon chance!
Last edited by Curtis E Carr; 29th Oct 2006 at 21:13.
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Two different jobs you're talking about.
If you want to fly in the military join the Royal Navy (you won't do a huge amount of flying....).
If you want to fly civilian - try CTC.
Ask yourself what do you really want to do?
Bear in mind, if you want to break into fixed wing later down the line, you run the risk of getting pushed into Rotary in the RN and end up going down a path you might not fancy going down. . .
If you want to fly in the military join the Royal Navy (you won't do a huge amount of flying....).
If you want to fly civilian - try CTC.
Ask yourself what do you really want to do?
Bear in mind, if you want to break into fixed wing later down the line, you run the risk of getting pushed into Rotary in the RN and end up going down a path you might not fancy going down. . .