Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse

[TheBigD]

I recently received an email from a Ppruner who shall remain anonymous. He is a non US citizen and the email started off with how to go about obtaining one's CFI in the States. I was very obliged to help until I read that the gentleman doesn't expect to get paid and he would be willing to instruct for free!!! I told him all of the reasons why he should not instruct for free, but he probably won't take my advice. WTF has this industry come to? What is wrong with wannabe's/newbie's. Not only are they willing to participate in immoral PFT or P2F schemes but now they are looking at instructing for free? So they will spend 10K to get their CFI's, instruct for FREE for a few years, then PAY 50K for some P2F program, and work for peanuts for another few years ( assuming that the the P2F airline keeps them on after the 300 or 500 hours of line training) Then what will they do, pay to upgrade to the left seat?

I can't get someone to mow my lawn for free, nor would I expect someone to do it for free. Now can you imagine someone paying you for the privilege to mow your lawn? Sounds crazy right? But we have people (who consider themselves professionals) willing to flight instruct for free, P2F, etc. I just don't get this industry any more. The sad part is it will get worse and I don't see it getting better..............Most of these kids don't see that their actions are hurting the industry as a whole.....Just my 2 cents worth. Sorry for the rant guys.

[inner]

Some will never learn. I would just look for another job. Unbelievable how many people would sell their soul. Sounds like that you could not be happy without aviation. This is indeed the bottom.

[TheBigD]

Redbull,

I hear ya. But we, as a pilot group, need to educate and explain to these guys what they are doing is wrong. We need to explain how their actions are degrading the profession, and how it will end up biting them in the long run. I just wish they would listen. The profession would be better off in the end as would their LONG and not short term career prospects. But you're right, a vast majority won't listen and it's better to just ignore them and not get worked up about it.

[Squadronbrat]

BigD

Offer him employment. Give him the W/C's to clean and the belly of aerobats to degrease. That's all he is worth. Let him work up the way most of us have.

[itsamushroom]

I'm curious, how exactly is a 20 something year old supposed to go about creating the foundations of a career as an airline pilot, since you seem to know it all?

[Larscho]

I'm curious, how exactly is a 20 something year old supposed to go about creating the foundations of a career as an airline pilot, since you seem to know it all?

To do stuff for free is certainly not the right way to do it. How can you even call it a "career" if you don't get paid to do it?

People need to realise that it is not worth everything to be up there. Do you think it is reasonable to do something for free that someone is making money out of in a commercial business?
Tow gliders if you want to do something for free!
If you want fun flying, get a PPL, buy your own aircraft and bash it around.

[inner]

Next thing P2I (pay to instruct)

[Squadronbrat]

Mushroom (appropriate name)

I'm curious, how exactly is a 20 something year old supposed to go about creating the foundations of a career as an airline pilot, since you seem to know it all?

One word - CAREER. How can you call anything a career that you pay to do? You may as well call it a hobby. It's these same 20 something year olds that have ruined this industry by paying firstly for T/R's and now line training.

[Nearly There]

Its always someone elses fault....that attitude is just typical too.

[IXUXU]

Being agree with all this, regarding social networks campaigns and so on...but maybe somebody should made a little research about getting jobs, before start "the career"...
The situation, regarding Europe, is not from 2 days ago...

[Papa_Golf]

Originally Posted by RedBullGaveMeWings

Why not start a campaign like this one! Home | Dead Tired
Why don't send it to TVs, newspapers and to everywhere else that can bring this situation to the media?

Because this campaign is meant to protect pilots that already established their career. "Old pilots" do not give a s**t about us youngsters. They were born and raised in different world. I have close relative which is an airline captain in his 50's: at his time he was payed for training by the airline, something that we can only dream about... I don't feel like it's my fault if the western world in general is suffering a constant decline.

Very easy to talk when your already sitting in your shiny jet...

[IXUXU]

wrong!

P2F schemes are screwing up the terms and conditions even for those "old pilots"
Actually there are already some P2F "Iwannabecaptainassoonaspossible" programs...

[Larscho]

They should not go. Get their PPL and do things slow, very slow.
It is easy to see that there are no jobs out there(for reasonable T/Cs) so why are they in such a rush?
Stay cool and get to know a few people before you do anything.

Why do you spend 100 000 euros on a career that there are no (reasonable)jobs in?
I am generally not disturbed if someone has worked a lot and saved up some money and do it in a slow modular manner so they know a little bit about it before they are at the finish line. But when people pay with money that they don't have and end up in high debts... That makes me sad.

[IXUXU]

Question: How are these new pilots going to start a career and land a first job when NO airline will hire them, due to no experience? How are they going to get this experience? This is how it is nowadays. So, their option is P2F and LT. Give me just one other way for them to go?

What about waiting until airlines asking for lower minimums, which is gonna happen if they find nobody else, and in the meanwhile, trying to find something else....yeah I know what you´re thinking....but maybe you should take a look regarding the new minimum requirements right now in US....you don´t even need the type rating...

This is what it is nowadays, cause the new pilots are willing and eager to accept such conditions.Period.

It will stop when all the pilots stop paying this kind of schemes or when the old pilots start to fight against those P2F guys in order to protect their conditions.

[Squadronbrat]

Question: How are these new pilots going to start a career and land a first job when NO airline will hire them, due to no experience? How are they going to get this experience? This is how it is nowadays. So, their option is P2F and LT. Give me just one other way for them to go?

Like I say - you can't call it a job if you pay to go to work. Just give you "one other way for them to go"? Well, you P2F can go You've ruined an industry.

I don't feel like it's my fault if the western world in general is suffering a constant decline.

Poor child. Deal with it. All the more reason not to remortgage daddies house to go play with jets.

This is how it is nowadays. So, their option is P2F and LT. Give me just one other way for them to go?

Go to Maun bush flying, instruct, work up the ladder to turboprops like the rest of us did. Theres even this:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ml#post7681533

We're not all Hamble cadets.

It's not our fault, but yours! You old pilots!

You will (guaranteed) get a very warm reception by any Captain if you ever make it to a jet with that attitude. That's a big if. You're not even a licence holder!

RedBullGaveMeWings

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: I'm a nomad
Posts: 240
No GAZ45, but I wish I already had a flying job, no matter the aircraft type!
I am about to start PPL here in Italy and then study ATPL theory straight away - next step would be hour building.
If I'd worked for them, I wouldn't have written anything about other schools and hour building places like NCB Aviation and its likes.

Very easy to talk when your already sitting in your shiny jet...

Yes, it is. And I've worked for it, not paid for it.

I am against pay to fly, I have already decided I want to be a flight instructor at first but I don't know whether it will pay the bills or not in the long term even though I may well end up going through this sh*t in future...

Nobody earns a great living by instructing. It's not about that, it's gaining valuable experience. It's better and more honourable than P2F.

[IXUXU]

Red... yeah, you´re right, but is a kind of..
some years ago most of the american fellows were running out looking for greener pastures and now the airlines in US are facing a coming shortage...so they have 3 options, improve their crappy terms and conditions, lowering the minimum requirements until certain point cause the FAA 1500 hour rule is gonna be a fact....or stop operations and /or expansion and let the aircraft grounded.
Market law, cupcake....if you can not sell your car for 5, you will lower the price... but if you have a long queue of crazy guys offering you 10....

Do you get my point?

[Samju]

Yes, I will also put blame on these old Pilots. Where were they when the retirement age for Pilots was increased to 65 from 60 , knowing fully well that this will stop all the outgo for full five years, meaning no body retired but the influx continued at at much faster pace because the reason given was severe shortage of Pilots and every one jumped in . The flying schools also mushroomed to make hay. What no body from this old lot saw that when there will be excess supply, the buyers will have the choice. They will start charging for TR and raise the bar of hours required to filter out and the flying schools exploited the scene by offering to build hours for money ( you call P2F). Think about those poor kids who at the height of demand invested hard money for their licences and had no other option but to pay to save the investment. Some may call it value addition, so that you are more marketable then the rest of the crowd. Finally one has to reap what he has sowed. The fresh kids in desperation were ready to work for peanuts and the companies found these old farts too costly. Now when they started to get the kick in their old butt, we see all these moans . There is a saying, if you can sleep while your neighbor is being robbed, don't worry, you will be next . No body that time thought of these young kids when they justified that they have to pay for their numerous grandsons and wives.
Just think who had been responsible for the mess which has started affected them. Next in line will be Capts because soon you will have P2F Capts. It is unfortunate that absence of talent will also be visible after some years as this industry is no longer attractive to bright students

[TheBigD]

I guess I should chime in here since I am the one that posted the topic.
Here goes my attempt to answer some of the questions posted:

1. Question: How are these new pilots going to start a career and land a first job when NO airline will hire them, due to no experience? How are they going to get this experience? This is how it is nowadays. So, their option is P2F and LT. Give me just one other way for them to go?

What BS entitlement attitude is that that once you get your CPL/IR you are entitled to a jet job??? Yes I understand times have changed, back in the 60's even pilots in the States were getting picked up by airlines (United comes to mind) with just a wet CPL/IR ticket. But we as pilots must be adaptable. Yes, things have changed, so let's man up and get used to that and not cry about how things were.

First of all your (f)ATP doesn't mean a thing. It's not an ATP it's just a CPL. So what can you do. How about instead of paying 50K for a type rating and line training you get your instructor certificates and instruct for a while. The jobs are out there. You may have to move, get out of your comfort zone but instructing jobs are out there. Maybe get on with a small turboprop operator. Build up some time. Those entry level jobs are there. A 737/320 gig is NOT ENTRY LEVEL.

You are not entitled to that job just because you paid 100,000 pounds for the training. With that being said, unless you come from money, why would you want to spend close to $150K (100K pounds) for training. Come to the States get your certificates for a third of the cost ($50K all the way up to Commercial/Ir and all the instructor certificates CFI, CFII, MEI) then work out here as CFI's to gain some experience. Get your FAA ATP go home study for the EASA ATP exams and do a conversion. Is that not an option? Yes instructor pay isn't that great, but you know what, it ain't that bad when you are not saddled with debt. Plus the fact that you get to work with some great people and you will learn so much more by instructing. Trust me on that one. I love how most of you guys b*tch that you don't have enough money for an FI certificate. Should have done your homework and gotten that before some useless $30K type rating that you may never get to use. Plus you know what the difference between type rated CPL/IR guys and not type rated ones with an FI is? While the type rated guys are sitting at home, the guys that got their FI certificates are still in the game , building time, flying, making contacts, etc. And if you do get furloughed, which you will in this industry, at least you have your FI to stay current and make a few extra bucks on the side while you are working as a greeter at WalMart. And some of you European pilots can correct me, but I am willing to bet that European FI's are having a much easier time finding jobs in Europe then guys with a FATPL that have, after training was completed, been sitting around for a couple of years not flying and letting their skills slowly deteriorate.

q2: Because this campaign is meant to protect pilots that already established their career. "Old pilots" do not give a s**t about us youngsters.

By the way, nice attitdue. In this game attitude is a big part of the equation and quite frankly you don't have it!!! Quite the opposite. They do care. I am not an old pilot (35 years old) but maybe to the 20 year olds I guess I may be . We care. We have been there. This industry is brutal. For every job available there are ten times more low time guys applying.. If you are 18 or 19 years old, get a non aviation related degree. Live at home, go to a state school and do it on the cheap. In the summertime, between your years in college , work towards obtaining you PPL. See if this is a profession you would enjoy. Then after you receive your degree then commence with full time training. Why do I say to get a degree? Two reasons, if aviation doesn't work out you have another career to fall back on . And what if you lose your medical? What then?

Just take a look at the number of integrated and modular students (sorry I'm a Yank so I don't quite know the exact way things are done across the pond) that have graduated in the past 5 years. Then compare that to the number of pilot jobs available. You will see that there is way more supply and demand. Oh yeah, and the pilot shortage. Not happening. I have been hearing about that as have the other older guys for as long as I can remember. The only one that perpetuates the pilot shortage are the flight schools. We are looking out for your LONG term interests not your short term ones. Yes you P2F, go do some line training, get a few hundred hours on type and maybe hope the airline keeps you. It may or may not work out. However, you have just screwed over and back stabbed another pilot by PAYING for a seat that should be occupied by a PAID FO. In the States, all TR's are paid for by the hiring airline. That's how I got mine. The only airline that requires you get a type is Southwest. All the others (including legacy and regionals) will pay for your type. However, when you pay for your type and participate in a P2F program, we are degrading the industry. That is why the QOL and TC's in this industry are going down the tube. Airlines now they will find guys willing to participate and spend loads of money to seat in the RHS. So yes we as pilots are our own worst enemies. But guess what, another P2F guy will come along and take your spot. The natural progression (besides the military) was (for the most part) GA. Flight instruct, banner tow, traffic watch, diver driver, etc. Thats how most of us "old guys" that don't get it" did it. We were in your shoes. Secretly wishing and dreaming that we would get picked up by an airline with a wet CPL/IR. But guess what, we stopped dreaming and started working towards that goal, by getting our instructor certificates, flying sky divers around, etc... Get some experience move on to the TP game. There was a natural selection. Cause the guys that truly wanted to be pilots persevered and eventually got there. Sure it may have taken 5 or more years, but in the grand scheme of things that is nothing!!! Now that whole model has been turned upside down with these P2F /line training/MPL schemes.

[EMB-145LR]

Christ this thread makes me weep! I only qualified in 2007 and even back then things weren't this bad in terms of P2F. In fact only Ryanair and Astraeus charged for ratings. The fact is, as someone else said earlier, 737s and A320s are not entry level aircraft.

I was modular, throughout my training I kept in contact with many of those who were also doing ATPL writtens, IRs etc. out of those guys, probably around 20, I know of three, including myself that have jobs. One paid to go to Ryanair, he is now desperately trying to get out. One bought an instructors rating, instructed for about a year and by the end of the year had offers from both Eastern Airways and bmi regional. He chose bmi and is still there and the last I heard was about a year away from a command on the ERJ-145.

As for me, I networked like hell and travelled all over Europe during my hour building knocking on doors. I managed to get a job offer on a 19 seat turboprop with a small regional airline. The Chief Pilot who hired me said that he was impressed with my initiative to use my hour building wisely, flying to smaller companies and making contacts. He said he never hires people who just send in a CV or cover letter starting 'To whom it may concern' or 'Dear Sir/Madam'. He liked to see that people did their research on a company and really wanted to work there. Two days after finishing my CPL (I did my IR prior to my CPL), I was in ground school for my type rating.

After a year on the turboprop I applied via an agency for an 'exciting opportunity for low hour pilots'. The job was for a start up flying the A320. The only downside was that you had to pay way over the odds (£30k) for the rating, but it would be paid back to you over three years. I jumped at the chance, but in retrospect I realise now that the interview and 'selection' day was based purely on my ability to pay. I took out a loan, handed in my notice and started my rating. The company that I was supposed to be joining went out of business before it even started flying just as I was finishing my rating. That was four and a half years ago. Today I still have only 1 hour on the Airbus!

However, I had my turboprop experience to fall back on and was lucky to get a job 3000 miles away from home flying the same old piece of tin that I had started on at my first airline. I did that for another year and shortly after getting married I was lucky enough to get a job on the ERJ-145 in my wife's home country.

That A320 rating that I paid for has been nothing but a drain on me. I am still paying it off and I have to pay to get it renewed every three years or risk losing it under EASA. The small turboprop rating that my first company paid for for me kept me in work when the shiny jet thing didn't work out. It led me to my current shiny jet, albeit a 50 seat jet. I love the ERJ-145, it's a fantastic little aircraft. I still envy the bigger boys sometimes, but I know my turn will come, just like it did moving from the 19 seat turboprop on to the ERJ. The A320 rating which I thought would accelerate my career has been nothing but a pain. I need never have done it and I'd probably still have been able to make it to where I am today.

Today I am happy. My turn will come for the 737 or the A320 and then maybe in years to come a 777 or A380. Who knows? But enjoy the journey, that's what it's really about. I love my job. I love the 5am sunrises and flying over mountains on crisp sunny days at FL370, but it has still become a job. A job I love, but still just a job. When all is said and done I look forward to my time off, coming home to my wife and dog and spending time with family and friends.

Network, do your time, put in the hard work and in time it will happen if its meant to. I consider myself very lucky to have had a relatively easy path to where I am now. Many others have to instruct for years, and many will never even make it.

I do not know of one guy who started out in GA or Turboprops that didn't make it to where they wanted to go. I have friends at BA, Emirates and Virgin, all started at the bottom.

[average-punter]

EMB-145LR

Thank you for an excellent post. It gives us wannabees lots to think about and a lot of advice.