Have you given up?

[almostgivenup]

Firstly I'd like to say that I do not want this thread to start up anyfights or arguments etc as often happens here. It is merely to see if there are others like me who have got to the point and decided enough is enough and tolive your life again? I am not looking for suggestions, sympathy or critcism, just to see if others feel the same.

I finished training over 3 years ago and having gone down many different avenues in the hope of finding that one position, have not been successful.

I'm sure there probably were more routes I could have pursued, but sadly Ihave bills to pay and could not have afforded to live had I gone down the route of instructing, working for free or working at an airport etc. I'm slowly realising that I was duped like many others into chasing a dream and I have topay the price, both financially and psychologically. It has left me depressedand demoralised, but I am just trying to carry on with my life and accept whathas happened.

I will always have sadness and regret that it has not turned out how I had hoped, however I've realised that you cannot buy a dream. I love flying, and hope to carry on doing so for pleasure, but to anyone else out there who has dreamt of being a pilot, think very carefully before you do. It has nearly cost me a marriage, and much much more.

[Antonio Montana]

Sorry to hear that, but not e drone is cut out for a career in aviation.
I have seen people give in after the PPL, the CPL, IR and even line training on a jet aircraft.
All I can say is that you must put it down to experience and get on with life.
After all in 100 years no one will know.

[Anunaki]

I feel your pain, and I understand how frustrating it might be after such a long wait,but hope is a very dangerous thing to lose.
I have been job hunting for a year, and just got a job as cabin crew,It won't cover all of my bills but I had to do something.I was turned down for all the jobs I've applied to outside aviation due to the fact I have a pilot licence so even with a university degree, all I could get was into BA's mixed fleet,since I can't afford a FI rating,couldn't get into Bush flying(not as easy as people think)and I refuse to P2F...
So, hang in there and whatever you decide I hope it works out!

I am sorry to hear about your plea, just thought in give you a thumbs up and a message of support,you aren't alone.

[almostgivenup]

Thanks for your reply - you're very kind. Had it not been for financial obligations, I would have done anything to get into the flight deck. Sadly the costs of training and life mean that if I did that, I'd probably end up in court for debt avoidance!

As it stands now, I'm in a fairly well paid job that is dull, but I value having a home life, weekends and evenings etc. That's not to say I wouldn't have managed working strange hours, but I guess you have to take the good from the bad, and that is part of the good.

It's a catch 22 though for anyone out of training/aviation for any significant period of time, the longer you go on, the harder it is. Why would an Airline want to employ someone who is out of the game, in place of a freshly qualified 21 yr old with no obligations and a healthy bank balance, of which there still seems to be plenty.

A woman I work with told me her son wanted to be a pilot and he was 12 years old, she asked if I had any advice. I just told her, make sure he works hard at school, carries on with the air cadets, join the University air squadron and then join the RAF if he can. If not, study medicine.

[Jimbonautics]

Hi there

Hi guys!
I'm just in the same situation as you are.
I finished my frozen ATPL in 2008, right at the beginning of all this crisis.
I'm searching for a job since then.
Fortunatly i got a job in Aviation who pays my bills every month and can keep my licences updated.
But I know exactly how you feel. P2F was never an option for me neither... but you know. With so many pilots in Europe getting laid off, this will not be easy as a newcomer to get his job.

A lot of friends went to Indonesia to fly for Lion Air. P2F programs.
But they are flying. I'm not saying this is the right way.
Everyone has his own way.
If ou give up, You will not be the first nor the last do follow another way.

Maybe you will find a happier way to live and another job who makes you even happier.

If you are waiting for a Job as a Pilot in Europe, man this will be hard.
NOt impossible, but hard.

I'm gona enter in my fifth year searching for a job. But i have to admit, i getting tired.

If you ask me if I already thaught about giving up...Yes of course, a lot of times. I getting tired of not knowing wich way i gonna go. If this job will happen for me or not.
And my girlfriend is getting tired too.

If you feel like giving up an try something else. Why not?!
I know, the flying education costs a lot... but you have just one life.
and time's not stopping.

It's a quite hard decision to make. But you will not be the first nor the last to pass trough it.

For me, as long as i can keep myself motivated and pay the licences.
And my girlfriend don't leave my for that...I gonna keep on trying.
But i don't know for how long.

A dream may come true. But afterwards it can pass to a nightmare...or not.

Up to you buddy! and good luck

[SloppyJoe]

If you get turned down for jobs as you had a pilots license, why oh why would you keep telling employers about it? Make something up to cover what you were doing for a year or two.

[Anunaki]

Easier saying than doing it Sloppyjoe...try to lie about it when you need to provide references for background checks for example....

[almostgivenup]

I got around the big black hole on my CV as I was working part time, and downplayed the significance of what I was doing, just said I doing the training in my spare time etc. It is a bit of a dilemma though as some employers do wonder....

[SV_741_India_Bravo]

almostgivenup, I dont know your specifics, but when it comes to paying bills there are some specific jobs that dont require particular qualifications. I dont know much about your area, but I got work in the digital media industry purely based on the fact that I can speak and write English well. May I suggest look for something in IT, if you are into it. That should take care of the bills for a while. When you do get a place that can take care of the bills, diversify. See if you can get support for a degree or certificate, in aviation or outside of it.

At the same time, always keep in touch with aviation, because you may think you will remember your stuff, but a month later - poof - its all gone. If possible, check out some of the (free) online courses available through AOPA or on the FAAST website.

My first job in aviation came from a very unexpected source. I didnt even apply to that place, neither did they announce any vacancies. An online aviation education project (free) that I set up just to keep myself in touch with aviation, and to educate the visitors to my site caught the eye of my new employer. They called me in and offered me a spot the same day.

At the end of it all, my experience did teach me one thing - for those of us fortunate enough to have the aviation bug, trust me, we will not be satisfied working anywhere else. You may think I'm a fool saying that, but I used to think that about all the people who told me this, until I experienced it myself. Aviation is what keeps us alive, and if it werent for my friends and acquantaince - people i barely know - who kept pushing me, I would have quit a long time ago.

Dont loose hope. Be thankful for what you have, keep a positive attitude, and look for options. Google is your friend, use it.

All the best!

[Cabair351]

Giving Up!

Well said SV 741.
Couldnt agree more.

[Bealzebub]

I am sure there are a great many people who have given up for one reason or another. This is a career path that is littered with bodies. I have been saying this (on these forums) for the last 14 years, and so have a great many others. There is nothing clever about the statement, it is a simple, obvious, and consistent observation.

Whilst I understand your position, one thing I am a little surprised by, is the suggestion that you "were duped." By whom?

For years and years and years, decades, and as long as this website has been in existence, and much longer, people have been warning of the risks inherent with relying on flight training as a succesful career path. Usually the only "duping" is entirely self inflicted. The resources are readily available to anybody who wants to avail themselves of them. This industry (like many industries) is a giant pyramid. Everybody is looking at the pinnacle but few are likely to get there. Even the "I am prepared to do that" jobs, are at a level that is well out of reach for many.

It is rather like saying you need an actors equity card to be a succesful actor. Having one may be a necessity, but it does absolutely nothing to ensure the desired result. Likewise with flight training. Every succesful placement requires the license, but the licence does nothing to ensure a successful placement. Something that seems woefully lost on a huge segment of the relevant populace.

Even at the pinnacle of this pyramid, there are placements that range from good, to not enough to survive on. Having a fall back plan, is therefore not only essential, it is in itself inadequate. Most people should have a number of fall back positions, because they quite simply, will need them!

Many of the requirements for obtaining a professional pilots licence have become much easier over the last decade. However the requirements for a succesful career placement have become much more difficult. It therefore doesn't take much imagination to understand that there is now a massive oversupply of hopeful wannabes, many of whom on sheer weight of numbers (ignoring everything else,) stand very little chance of success. In other words the giant pyramid has got much, much bigger, but the pinnacle of it is simply higher up, and further away.

People seem to labour under an illusion that it is the obligation of flight training organisations to dissuade wanabees, and paint a gloomy picture. That is simply ludicrous and naive. The survival of any business depends on profit, and that profit will only come by selling a product. You can sell flight training. You can sell a Ferrari. You cannot sell a dream, because it has no tangibility. You hope that the potential buyer will use that excuse or reason for buying your product if nothing else will.

If you do give up, then don't feel too bad about it. People make worse mistakes in life and recover. That said, there are jobs out there, and people are still getting them. I have seen a lot of good top tier vacancies filled in the last 18 months by people who did research carefully and got lucky. I have also seen vacancies filled at all of the levels from the pinnacle down through the layers. These vacancies were filled by people who obviously didn't give up. who worked hard, and also got lucky.

The pyramid may be very large these days, but it has always been a pyramid with very slippery sides.

[Shrimps]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP - almost 5 years since graduation with a CPL due for renewal and very little to show for it.

I'm not blaming anyone for my situation - at the end of the day it was a risk I took when the times were good; it was only the week before my IR exam that things took a turn for the worse when airlines that would normally be looking to take on cadets didn't; not long afterwards both BA and BE stopped taking on through their cadet schemes and EZ got into bed with CTC.

I didn't do too badly for interviews, and attended selection for Luxair and Tyrolean; both times dropping out at the psychometric stage (and both times being refused any feedback unless I returned in person). Ryanair was a bad day at the office with an utterly horrendous sim which was nothing like the experiences my successful peers related to me. Regardless, I have been doing a multitude of jobs to pay the bills and to get experience where I can. Regrettably in my case I don't have a degree to fall back on either, which is somewhat limiting my career potential for now, and because I don't wish to completely turn my back on aviation whilst my ratings are still valid I'm not yet looking too seriously at an alternative career.

I do consider at what point to just draw a line underneath it and accept that I gambled and lost and start looking elsewhere - I suspect that point is 18 months down the line when it comes to my next IR renewal in an aircraft as it is a heck of a financial commitment. Until that day I will retain a glimmer of hope!

[Da-20 monkey]

I had 30 hours dual instruction for the issue of a PPL before i was 16. I started an integrated course 2 years ago. Passed the ATPL theory, then was kicked out because the bank would not loan me upwards of 85.000 jurro's. Bad credit rating and all. Parents not rich enough.
Last jobs I had were dishwashing, working on the ramp on schiphol didn't really work out because I was unable to terminate my contract at a restaurant.

Now I'm 27 and I don't want to be a pilot anymore, even tough I still have a lot of passion for,and knowledge of, aviation. I am glad the bank wasn't going to give me all that money. I don't have huge loans to pay off like you guys because I didn't reach the stage of instrument and multi engine instruction and stuff. but it feels like I wasted a lot of time dreaming about a stupid boy's dream.

Next month I start a quite regular business administration course at college. I am not going to tell anyone that I have been involved in flight training, and you should not do either.
People do not want to hear your stories about failing to be a pilot. They will turn their back on you, especially woman.

Go to a financial advisor and see how you can manage to pay off your debts while learning a valuable skill that will give you a good job and live somewhere cheap. If you have degrees, don't tell HR people at a job interview that you have done flight training, make something up like travelling.

Don't compare yourself with people who got a job at some low-cost carrier with a pretty facebook picture of them sitting in a big cockpit.

Perhaps next september I will see if I can change my course to bachelor aeronautical engineering.

Portsharbourflyer: You are right. What I meant was the atpl theory might help me with the entry requirements.

Row with the paddle's you have

[portsharbourflyer]

"Perhaps next september I will see if I can change my course to bachelor aeronautical engineering, there are poosibilities to make ATPL theory count towards some of it's course subjects."

ATPL technical subjects are like primary school stuff compared to the technical content of a Aeronautical Engineering degree, ATPLs may count on some of those wooly noddy aviation management / sciences courses, but for a fully accredited engineering degree the ATPL tech content is no where near that needed for degree level study.

[felixflyer]

Unfortunately this industry has been well and truly screwed by the willingness of people to either pay to fly or to accept peanuts. There are just too many people willing to throw endless amounts of money at airlines and FTO's for the chance to get into the right hand seat of a jet. For some people a jet job is not what they are looking for. The problem is any job that might help get people into that uniform is inundated with applications from people just wanting to use it as a stepping stone into the airlines. That along with increasing costs means there is no money in instructing or GA.

Of course its not the fault of the FTO's, they are a business and do what they need to make money. Its not the fault of the airlines either, if they are getting thousands of CV's every week from people willing to sell their mother for a chance to get in the flightdeck then they are going to reduce T&C'c and bring in P2F schemes.

The only way I can see things changing is if the supply of people willing to pay for a job dries up. I think however that this is unlikely, the recession doesn't seem to have stopped it and there could be a big influx from asia in the coming years.

The job of pilot was always going to get more and more mundane, people nowadays expect to pay more to park their car at the airport than they do for the flight ticket, this can only lead one way im afraid. T&C's will continue to decrease as long as there are more pilots than jobs. Soon the role of FO will be part of the training process and we will see schools offering 0 to captain courses. The really sad thing is there will be a queue of people willing to pay for it.

[cowhorse]

Here's my 'unexperty' prediction: there will be a spike in acft accidents in the next two decades due to appalling training quality of pilot factories and lack of experienced pilots (from zero to hero, skipping some basic maths in between). The future captain will be either a guy who started flying A320 when he was 16, 'cos his parents owned one, or a guy, who was a fitness coach, saved some money, and paid for his job.
Another interesting thing to see will be the public reaction, when a first loco crashes (God forbid). And the reaction of the Irishman.

So I predict grim couple of decades, but then, the conditions could improve.

[de facto]

The reason why some people make it and some people fail is because some give up while the others dont.

[Piltdown Man]

Another interesting thing to see will be the public reaction, when a first loco crashes (God forbid). And the reaction of the Irishman.

Whilst I detest the vile Irishman who runs RYR, I don't think the first LoCo to stoof in will have a harp on its tail. The finished product of their training department is every bit as good as or better than European legacy carriers. Where they really stink as a company is not in flying but in other areas.

[felixflyer]

'The reason why some people make it and some people fail is because some give up while the others dont.'

You could also say:

The reason why some end up bankrupt or in mountains of debt with nothing to show for it is because some give up while the others dont.

[Bealzebub]

Here's my 'unexperty' prediction: there will be a spike in acft accidents in the next two decades due to appalling training quality of pilot factories and lack of experienced pilots (from zero to hero, skipping some basic maths in between). The future captain will be either a guy who started flying A320 when he was 16, 'cos his parents owned one, or a guy, who was a fitness coach, saved some money, and paid for his job.

The truth is that the training courses that many of the major FTO's to cadet programmes provide, are far from "appalling" and far exceed what it is either available in the general marketplace, or what existed years ago. I have worked with the "product" of these programmes for some 15 years now. Those 250 hour cadets are todays 10,000 hour captains! They are neither poorly trained, nor are they inexperienced.

In order to make sensible predictions for the next two decades, you need to understand the evolution of the last two decades. A lot of people simply refuse to do that because it doesn't suit their own model. To get a foot in the door, you must first know where the door is! Airlines are buying their pilots from two sources (in varying degrees.) They are buying experience or they are buying trainees from sources they trust. Although the balance has changed over the last two decades, fundamentally this has always been the case.

Two decades ago, the only 250 hour commercial pilots in the UK, where from approved training schools. In the majority of cases those pilots were yesterdays cadets. Beyond that, a wannabe commercial pilot needed to amass over 700 hours for a basic commercial licence. That was only possible for the majority by working their way up through instructing, or the few general aviation opportunities that were available. Having the opportunity usually meant that the world didn't stop at the 700 hour point. yesterdays instructor/ GA pilot /CPL/IR holder would often go on to acquire the basic couple of thousand hours that provided an invitation to the big boys party! Whilst it provided a well worn path to the airlines, it wasn't a universal success. A couple of thousand hours instructing or GA flying provided experience, but it didn't always provide a good product for the airlines. The training background was often patchy, inconsistent and subject to rectification in remedial training later on.

When JAR resulted in the CPL experience level being reduced from 700 hours (other than approved schools) to 250 hours, it simply stripped a third of the "bulk hours" experience from new CPL/IR holders. This "aerial work" licence was now the basic requirement to instruct, or to do many of those GA stepping stone jobs that existed previously. The airlines didn't generally reduce their experience requirements, nor did they need to.

Recruitment continued to select the previous experience base. That being comprised of military service career changers, and experienced pilots in the market for new opportunities. The change came at the entry level. Growth came in this sector of the market from an evolution of the previous "approved schools." The established names and a few new entrants to this market, offered airlines a well trained cadet product, whereby the risk was shifted from the airline to the cadet themselves. Despite a long and succesful history in a small segment of the marketplace, these new programmes were initially viewed with some scepticism. Nevertheless, that scepticism proved largely unfounded, and these cadet programmes supplied an ever growing proportion of many airlines new pilot requirements.

The general economic downturn has simply masked much of this reality. Whilst certain sectors of the market have continued to grow, there has been widespread stagnation in a lot of it. Airlines (like most businesses) have sought to survive, by cutting costs wherever feasible. This has then been passed down to their suppliers, and is also reflected in the general T&C's on offer to new and current employees. Although it is still very patchy, when growth returns, the mask is lifted, the economic lessons are still a painful reminder, and the pre-recession new realities will return even more aggresively than where they left off.

The quaint notion that things will somehow revert back to where they were two decades ago, is simply nonsense. They can't because the fundamentals have changed. The mask that this current economic downturn provides, is a set of hoardings. If you find a crack and peek behind those hoardings, you will see investment and reorganisation going on at many of these large FTO's in preparation for the expansion that they intend to profit from.

Evolution is about the need to adapt in order to survive in a changing environment. The marketplace has evolved. The regulatory environment has evolved. The commercial priorities of the large industry players has evolved. Those that seek success in this business need to understand these realities and evolve themselves. Hiding under a rock and hoping it will all go away, isn't likely to be a succesful formula.

Speaking as somebody with no axe to grind and having been lucky enough to have forged a very good career from this industry, I would most definitely approach things from a different way 35 years later! I am flying with people who have adapted to these realities. They have embarked on good career paths. They recognise that whatever the realities, they are also very lucky.