Have you given up?

[avtur007]

inner, bluecode and superpilot glad to hear you guys can see the unfortunate darkness on the shambles that is aviation. I still intend to mince around with some adhoc flights and the like as i still have the bug, but itll be a long time before i will be again career flying to India at midnight on a 11 hour duty, 2 times in a row then switch onto a 6.30am 12 hour duty to Cairo the next day.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

cowhorse,

My take on all this is simply to pass a law that states 'ATPL holders need to have a college degree.'

What a ridiculous idea, in the UK at least anyway.

It costs circa £30,000 - £60,000 to obtain a university degree (UK equivalent) these days...

Just how much do you think people can afford? In the worst case scenario, you're talking about people spending nearly a quarter of a million pounds to become an airline pilot!

As things stand, you have the choice of going to university and working in a half decent job for a few years to pay for training, or beginning work at a younger age in a crappier job to accomplish the same within the same time frame.

On the one hand you have somebody who has demonstrated that they have the ability to learn, quite correct.

But on the other, you have somebody who was prepared perhaps to do what the other wasn't? My previous employer (pilot job) always took the 'life experienced' over the 'university experienced'... It was discovered that the former were generally better people to be around and got on with the job to a higher standard.

A degree shows that you are able to drag yourself away from a drink fueled stupor to get to lectures on time and you know how to pass exams. No disrespect meant to those learned individuals who went to university for the right reasons, I'm talking about the 80% these days and I'm speaking from experience.

Degrees are no longer what they used to be.

In the modern world it's the money that does the talking.

[MCDU2]

I have been banging on about this for donkeys years but here it goes anyways.

For the more mature wannabe you really have to consider carefully getting into this game. Its all about seat time and seniority and if age isn't on your side then your up against it from the start.

Your average kid gets into aviation in the early 20's. They go to FR and do a few winters and get an early command or perhaps they time it right and jump into BA. They then start at the bottom of a very long seniority list at BA but don't care about the time spent at FR since they are young. By the time they are 30 they could see a short haul command or if they wish stay on longhaul and get LHS another 5-10 years later. Still short of 40 more than likely. That will still give them 15-20 years in the LHS.

Start in your 40s and its much harder. Currently there are no quick commands in any of the locos. That means your stuck. BA has finished hiring DEs for the foreseeable future and there is no more BMI. Young guys are much more willing to put up with being shafted around than older folk as they have no ties and its all still a bit of an adventure. The older guys don't like being shafted, have lots of life experience and want to be treated like a human being. Throw into the mix a family and the pressures that brings and its a recipe for disaster.

I suspect the above is what the poster has worked out. He could be facing the prospect of a long time in the RHS at a loco and only ever shifting to the LHS in the medium to long term with continually eroding T&Cs and a base which is nowhere near his family home. The chances of getting out to a major airline are slim to none given that his experience won't ever fit his age. Sad but true.

[n.dave]

given up? Yes, sometimes i thought about it. But, i came too far to give up! My heart is pushing me to chase the dream.
2 years now since i have graduated and still couldn't find a flying job! Have a degree in aeronautical eng. and try to give a go at eng. departments but they are not interested (maybe i got a cpl or i'm too stale). Ir Renewal is on the way and that will be 1500-2000 pounds gone. I am spending more than i am earning. I have been networking and made some contacts. One of cx's sfo told me there is a possibly a danger for me if i don't find a job soon! I will become stale and hard to compete with the fresh meats. Holy cow!! I keep up dating myself by reading aviation news and atpl notes.(sad i know, but i enjoy it). What should i do? I see myself there are 2 options. One, is to travel to africa and find a bush pilot job, and then it will open up more roads. 2, is get a job here and fly once a month(or get a instructors rating) but new roads will slowly appear. My family and friends want me to stay but i'm keeping it open for now. Theres a old chinese man saying 'if you can't find a horse, find cow and in search for a horse'
cheers

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Cowhorse,

I wouldn't disagree with anything in your last post. It would be laughable how many people are training to become pilots for 1% of that amount of jobs, if we weren't talking about people's lives being ruined.

It's one very difficult, depressing decision for two reasons -

1) Getting thus far has nearly made me homeless, lost me my wife and I no longer can afford a reliable mode of transport. I cannot let that be for nothing, I need to push on so all those sacrifices will mean something in the end.

2) If I push on, there is a very high risk that I will fall further behind the financial drag curve than I am already, and ruin my life totally, living the rest of my days out filled with regret, ultimately relying on a state pension in retirement.

I am fortunate enough not to have come anywhere near point 1 above, I am still undecided and will probably reassess the situation in 5-10 years.

[Feedmemore]

Most of you guys don't have economic eduction and are totally disconnected from reality.

Have you seen air France, British airways, and air Berlin,....? They are on their knees.

Europe is fully stacked with planes and pilots for the next 5 years at least.

So there won't be any mass hiring for sure and the chance to get a job is near 0.

Still, you don't need to give up, your wife and you bank will give up before you.

What do you think you are with your 200h of seminole and da 40....?kind of flying god?

[banjodrone]

Every so often I get that feeling that maybe it's time to call it a day and stop dreaming but as soon as I go to an air show, aviation museum, watch some documentary on TV or even just travel on a plane, the feeling that this is what I really want to do just overwhelms me. I'm sure lots of you can relate.

[shaun ryder]

I get you. Some of us actually feel aviation is in our blood, its been with us since our first memories of childhood. I never tire of going to see aircraft in museums or at air shows, I see my job as being a hobby that I get paid to do. I feel fortunate that I hardly ever feel jaded, I actually enjoy going to work!

[shocko1]

very true and well written B

[Poose]

Shaun Ryder,

I'm exactly the same... the hard part I find, is trying to keep one's chin up when you realise that due to your inability to pay for a Type Rating and, or work for peanuts, that you might never be able to fly for a living... despite all of the hardwork and sacrifice.

I have ex-Modular acquaintances and friends who got into the more reputable regional outfits around 2008, before the CTC near monopolisation of UK recruitment... I look at them now like they won the lottery, finishing training at the time they did.

[magicmick]

Poose makes a valid point that timing is extremely important more so than networking, it doesn't matter how well connected you are if you are seeking employment at a time when no-one has any vacancies.

Despite romantic notions of having aviation in the blood and passion for flying, there will come a time when you are throwing good money after bad by keeping everything in date and chasing employment. The trick is to recognise that time and to be dispassionate and cold enough to quit.

For me personally either I haven't reached that time yet or I have reached it and I'm too blind to recognise it.

Good luck to you all (providing you don't have better luck than me)

[no sponsor]

I was unbelievably lucky and I work for one of the best airlines in the world where we are treated like the professionals we all aspire to be, and the company firmly believes that its pilot workforce is not a commodity to be outsourced to the lowest bidder. There are quite a few airlines (and I worked for one of them) where you are treated pretty badly by modern-day cotton-mill owners. Despite flying a jet, the shine wears off pretty quickly, for all sorts of reasons, including spiteful non-flying DFOs!

These days, the stories of flexi-crew pilots for EZY saddens me because there is only a career in a handful of organizations spread across Europe. For the rest, you're simply treated no better than a factory worker on minimum wage. (Except factory workers didn't spend 18 months and £100K on learning to stuff meat products into cardboard boxes.)

After training, I gave myself 2 years to find a job. After that time I would have packed it in and continued with my then career. As a new pilot 2 years is too long to go without sustained exposure to a commercial pilot environment. That's what any chief pilot or HR bod will assume as well.

Don't piss your life away waiting for the never never. People say that you don't want to be on your death bed saying 'what if', but people don't seem to think that you, equally, don't want to be saying 'what was I thinking?'. It takes courage, wisdom and integrity to realize that first, there is no career in the majority of airlines, and second, fate has deemed you should walk a different path.

Don't waste your life. Look for other opportunities, and treat your little blue book as a learning experience.

[OneIn60rule]

Giving up and thinking of it.

Well it has been several years since I started the idea of flying as a job.

It worked out for Instructing but the pay for that was finally just not good enough to warrant staying in the gig. So after 4 years of it I left the company.

My venture started when I was 26 and I'm now 35. I had roughly 4-5 chances of a job as FO or Captain but each time someone wanted payment. These chances came up just before the big economy crash and after.


Looking back I should probably have paid for it.

Now I'm unemployed and have been for 6 months.

The idea of getting into an airline is unrealistic for me. The best I could hope for at present is gaining a job with a small regional place, that would be more than adequate.


So no I haven't given up, the dream has only changed.

[tonyic7]

almostgivenup

I can easily relate to other people's experiences of finishing flight school and not getting a job. Flight schools are businesses and what they want is primarily your hard earned (or yet to be earned in most cases) cash, followed by a successful pass so they can say - "you wanted a licence and that's what you got".

I qualified mid 2007, £80k debt, in a holdpool Oct07, out the holdpool beginning 2008 because of the recession. I had no money, no way raise funds to pay for a TR, felt depressed, marriage strained and didn't see how this nightmare would come to an end. To make matters worse I got a job in my old career, which overlooked the approach end of a busy airfield. I kept dreaming, sending CV's, keeping IR current and then 4.5yrs later my break came. After pleading with family and the bank, I raised enough to pay for the TR (by the way, even though i couldn't afford it at the time, I was dead against paying for a TR back in 2007) and started my dream job. Ok, i'm flying a Boeing and there are still a few minor issues, I may only have £50 a week to myself after paying off loans but that won't be forever. What I'm saying is you don't know what's around the corner, keep sending CV's, maybe try phoning smaller companies and ask if you can pop in to see them, a face to face is worth much more than an email. I wish you all the best and hope you to can escape your nightmare. Good luck!

[magicmick]

Hi tony, first off all sincere congratulations on keeping the faith and landing the gig of your dreams. I would be grateful if you could enlighten me a little further did you pay for your type rating with no sign of a job and go out and find one or did you get the job offer and have to pay for the rating as a condition of employment?

I qualified in mid 2008 (rotten timing) and I too have reverted to my previous aviation based career (engineering). So I can understand the frustration that you must have felt and how your attitude to self funded rating and P2F etc softened over the years. I’m sure if it wasn’t for the need to provide for my family then I’d have cracked and stumped up for a rating long ago.

Good luck with the job, enjoy it, you’ve earned it

[tonyic7]

Magicmick

You're right about the timing, from what I hear it has been just as bad as post 9-11. The airlines are cyclical but I think it will still be a few years or so before things are on the up.

Regarding paying for my TR, I was offered a contract of employment subject to completing the TR with a TRTO - which was arranged by my employer but me picking up the tab. Another big risk as unfortunately two people on my course failed the TR.

If I were in your position I would NOT go and get a TR without having first secured a job. You could blow £25k+ on the TR course, but as an ab-initio you will need to do base training 6 take-off & landings and then operate with a training capt for usually min of 40 sectors. After this you're on the line but still very new to the game. Every day is different, you learn new things, have small issues which may require the use of the QRH, icing, mod turbulence at FL340 - having a v/s descent of 1500pm whilst pitching 5 deg nose up is not fun, managing descents and then ATC cut 30 track miles off the STAR leaving you high, SOP's.... the list is endless. By obtaining a TR before a job you will just limit your market, you would also need to do recurrent training and hiring a sim and TRE would be loads more expensive than popping up in a PA34 or whatever. I had nearly a month off not long ago and when getting back into the plane, for the first 1hr, I felt new again. If you did a TR with no job, I think you would forget all you had learnt very quickly.

To make myself stand out a bit more I bit the bullet and enrolled on another JOT course (£2,500 to Mr Visa - this was 4yrs after finishing flight school) which was 16hrs full motion B737. This definitely helped when it came to the interview.

Hope this have given you food for thought, good luck to you to!

[SEAMASTER]

Good luck with the job, enjoy it, you’ve earned it !!

I think you'll find he's paid for it rather than earned it ! Another one adding to the demise of his own profession !! Eh, on a positive note though he's got fifty quid a week to himself !! Dear oh dear !!

[tonyic7]

Seamaster

This game is all about luck and being in the right place at the right time. You were flying before me when the market was not quite so cut throat so may have been lucky enough to escape paying any type rating costs. Lucky you!! Had I started in the hold pool I was in I would not have paid for a TR.

The good thing is I work for a company which is expanding rapidly and turning a profit.

[magicmick]

Hi Tony and Seamaster

Yeah I can understand Seamasters sentiments but as has been pointed out they have been a member of PPRuNe since 2003 and almost certainly qualified at a time when the recruitment situation was better than it is now.

The recruitment of pilots has definitely been cyclical of late with relatively well defined peaks and troughs, unfortunately we’re in a trough right now and I cannot see any sign of starting back up the slope towards a peak. Obviously the current recession plays a part in the flat lining at the bottom of the trough but I feel that the plethora of P2F schemes also plays a huge part, experienced ex-mil and TP/ air taxi pilots cannot move onto jets as that seat is reserved for those with £50k of their own or someone else’s money to burn. P2F is nothing new, back in 2005 Bond Aviation used to flog 737 ratings with 100hrs line flying but the amount of different P2F schemes now is helping to keep us in this ‘trough’.

Paying for a rating with a job offer at the end helps to mitigate the risk of financing your own rating but people do still get chopped during type training or line training, losing their job offer and the money that they stumped up for their training. So to counter Seamasters earlier comment tonyic7 got the training that they paid for but paying for the training in no way guarantees the job. The job comes from the hard work and dedication needed to complete the rating and line training to a satisfactory standard and you can’t pay for that which is why I feel that the job (not the training) is well earned.

My one glimmer of hope since qualifying has been an assessment day for RYR, unfortunately I had the call a few days before the date of the assessment and had no time to arrange time is a simulator. Having done my MCC in a TP sim and no JOC, the first time that I set foot in a jet sim was on the assessment day and I didn’t cover myself in glory, in fact I was well behind the sim throughout so it came as no surprise when the ‘custard pie’ email arrived a couple of weeks later. Many people said that I’d dodged a bullet by not getting into RYR but in the current situation opportunities are rare to say the least and cannot be squandered lightly.

So to all those who had to pay for training as a condition of a job offer and are now established in the job I still say well done and well earned.

[Kelly Hopper]

Many of you seem to think that the job situation now is abnormal? It isn't. This is normal. What we had the last few years was abnormal, just like all the money flooding the economy. But it wasn't reality. This is.