British Airways Future Pilot Programme.
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Chocs, are you implying that it's not possible to work full time and do well in further or higher education? Thousands of people every year work full time in professional roles whilst still managing to achieve merits and distinctions at postgraduate level, or firsts and upper seconds at undergrad whilst studying on the side. Not easy, of course, but it's not exactly uncommon.
Everyone who makes it through to the final stages of something like the FPP will have done extremely well at the aptitude tests, exams and interviews during the previous rounds, on top of a strong educational background. It's not like anyone's getting through just with good A levels alone, so why wouldn't they look for aptitude and qualifications, not to mention the whole list of other attributes they'll be ticking boxes for on their clipboard sheets. Considering the number of really high quality candidates at the final couple of stages, they're going to be getting it broadly right. Is there a workable system (as far as application numbers go) if they lower the qualifications?
Having an advanced maths, physics or science background will obviously help with some aspects of the training/job but whatever the makeup of your subjects at A level, surely it's more about showing a capacity for learning and managing workload? G-FORC3 is being pretty sensible.
Of course, everyone will always defend their own perspective especially if they, probably quite correctly, think they have the right skills and aptitude. There are different rules for different routes, all you can do is push your efforts towards whichever route you can jump through the requisite hoops for at the time. Some routes are blocked by qualifications, others by finances. Frustrating? Almost certainly!
Everyone who makes it through to the final stages of something like the FPP will have done extremely well at the aptitude tests, exams and interviews during the previous rounds, on top of a strong educational background. It's not like anyone's getting through just with good A levels alone, so why wouldn't they look for aptitude and qualifications, not to mention the whole list of other attributes they'll be ticking boxes for on their clipboard sheets. Considering the number of really high quality candidates at the final couple of stages, they're going to be getting it broadly right. Is there a workable system (as far as application numbers go) if they lower the qualifications?
Having an advanced maths, physics or science background will obviously help with some aspects of the training/job but whatever the makeup of your subjects at A level, surely it's more about showing a capacity for learning and managing workload? G-FORC3 is being pretty sensible.
Of course, everyone will always defend their own perspective especially if they, probably quite correctly, think they have the right skills and aptitude. There are different rules for different routes, all you can do is push your efforts towards whichever route you can jump through the requisite hoops for at the time. Some routes are blocked by qualifications, others by finances. Frustrating? Almost certainly!
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Tennisten, you're probably entirely correct. There will be plenty of people who possess all of the skill and aptitude necessary, but fall just short of the qualifications. The problem is, how do you then deal with assessing all of the extra applications that come in needing individual attention because of the reasons why they had a bad A level year? You'd probably need to quadruple the size of the respective HR departments at the FTOs and airlines involved.
It's still not on a par with the US, don't you need at least a 4 year degree to apply to any of their majors?
It's still not on a par with the US, don't you need at least a 4 year degree to apply to any of their majors?
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Mayday, I definitely was not implying that you cannot achieve high grades in part time education the proof of that was the DD (Distinction, Distinction). What i was arguing is that the workload is higher than that of A-Levels and we should not be discriminated against for the reason that we don't possess A-Levels. I understand the necessity to screen candidates in a certain way and my original question back on page 53 was along the lines of is it acceptable to hold any other type of qualification and still be considered? G-Force gave a good answer but there has not really been anything definitive from a past applicant that has had this kind of issue. Any enlightenment on the subject rather than bias towards one or another type of educational background would be appreciated.
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tennisten: "Also what makes you think someone with better A Levels will have a greater capacity to fly an aircraft? After all that's what this is all about, not just the theory..."
In certain circumstances you may be correct, but my points were average based - and I stand by them. Who do I think are more likely to make better candidates, a group with AAA at A-Level or a group (otherwise similar) with BCC? Well I'd put my money on on the AAA group. BA have said many times they are looking for the best candidates; and frankly the best candidates are unlikely to be those who weren't able to acquire BBC at A-Level. Clearly there may be the odd exception, but I'd be willing to bet that it would be such a small number of people that it wouldn't be worth BA's time to devise a system to find them. Remember, BA is a business.
But to suggest that it's "all" about flying an aircraft sorely misses the fact that that's really only a part of it. An important part, but only part of it nonetheless. You might be the best at controlling an aircraft, for instance, but if you have to deal with an unruly passenger - you might not have a clue. Therefore, the best candidates (and remember, BA are looking for the best), are more likely to be those who are well-rounded with a bit of life experience, good qualifications and an aptitude for flying.
In certain circumstances you may be correct, but my points were average based - and I stand by them. Who do I think are more likely to make better candidates, a group with AAA at A-Level or a group (otherwise similar) with BCC? Well I'd put my money on on the AAA group. BA have said many times they are looking for the best candidates; and frankly the best candidates are unlikely to be those who weren't able to acquire BBC at A-Level. Clearly there may be the odd exception, but I'd be willing to bet that it would be such a small number of people that it wouldn't be worth BA's time to devise a system to find them. Remember, BA is a business.
But to suggest that it's "all" about flying an aircraft sorely misses the fact that that's really only a part of it. An important part, but only part of it nonetheless. You might be the best at controlling an aircraft, for instance, but if you have to deal with an unruly passenger - you might not have a clue. Therefore, the best candidates (and remember, BA are looking for the best), are more likely to be those who are well-rounded with a bit of life experience, good qualifications and an aptitude for flying.
Last edited by G-F0RC3; 25th Sep 2013 at 19:23.
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As stated before, I stupidly can't apply due to A Levels, which I still believe is an insane way of predicting how well you'll perform as a pilot... Another guy who was on my assessment had 3 A Levels at A grade and he failed the assessment for the 2nd time... Whereas I passed first time with high scores... It's a joke!!!
Many airlines, and you can be sure British airways is one of them, regard pilot recruitment as a resource from which they will draw future trainers and managers. Not only do they want to reduce the attrition risk in their own training process, but they look for skills that go broader than simply "flying a plane." Educational achievements in themselves are regarded as a valid indicator to the amount of effort and commitment that an individual has already shown in pursuit of their own betterment. It may not be foolproof, but it has a tried and trusted track record.
Yes, there may well be potentially good applicants excluded from this process, but the methodology doesn't cause the company to suffer any lack of quality or quantity in the numbers that do qualify. Consequently your lack of qualification doesn't affect them at all. Companies that regard themselves as the pinnacle players, expect to attract applicants that reflect that perceived status. Once again, there is no shortage of such applicants.
The education requirement they set does NOT give an indication as to how well someone will perform in the selection process.. It's sad really...
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tennisten: "You need to open your eyes a bit. It isn't that some people can't achieve BBC at A Level, but because at that point in their life they didn't necessarily have the opportunity to do so."
By the way, my eyes are wide open to the above. Indeed I fell very much into the above category just a couple of years ago. Was working full time, never stayed on at school, only fairly good Standard Grades (equiv GCSE in Scotland), but nothing spectacular. Was it ever due to a lack of ability? No, it was due to coming from a low income background and never having had the opportunity. So I went back to "school" (while working full time and learning to fly) and did five Highers. Now I have a PPL (like you) and good enough Higher grades to get onto a medical degree (if I wanted to). So it can be done, you've just got to want it badly enough and work hard.
By the way, my eyes are wide open to the above. Indeed I fell very much into the above category just a couple of years ago. Was working full time, never stayed on at school, only fairly good Standard Grades (equiv GCSE in Scotland), but nothing spectacular. Was it ever due to a lack of ability? No, it was due to coming from a low income background and never having had the opportunity. So I went back to "school" (while working full time and learning to fly) and did five Highers. Now I have a PPL (like you) and good enough Higher grades to get onto a medical degree (if I wanted to). So it can be done, you've just got to want it badly enough and work hard.
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While we're on the topic of grades does anyone know whether the 'BBC' can be in the form of UCAS points, as mine of A*BD. I did email BA but didn't really get a definite answer.
If we start considering UCAS points a DD in an HNC is 240 points. BBC at A-level is 280 points. Therefore a DD in an HNC does not meet the target.
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If you have equivalent academic qualifications then you will be asked to provide a Letter of Comparability from UK NARIC before attending your first selection day. The Scottish educational qualification equivalents are detailed in the FAQ page.
The above from the BA FPP website suggests that equivalent qualifications are acceptable. What's considered equivalent isn't as clear, but in any case the emboldened above implies that (irrespective of how good your equivalent qualifications are) you're still required to provide a letter of comparability from UK NARIC. So my advice would be to contact UK NARIC to a) establish if your qualifications are equivalent, and b) to get a letter stating that.
Note that you cannot get a definitive answer on here as even if someone from your positions have previously applied, the rules might change this time around. And someone like me - who is merely giving my best understanding of the situation based on the evidence we have - obviously cannot give a guarantee. I certainly wouldn't be taking someone's word for it on a forum anyway, as it's you guys who will be disapointed at the end of the day if we're wrong.
Hope it's helpful.
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The really annoying thing for me is that I have an Irish leaving certificate, however this qualification is terribly underestimated in the UK. I got a total of 450 pts (considered very high in Ireland), the UCAS equivalent is 297 pts. But for some reason after having applied to Uni in the UK for aerospace eng. while hoping to get on a pilot programme in the meantime, I was told I would have to do a foundation year due to my grades (despite Bs in maths and physics) !!!! Need i say i was furious.
Now I have seen the english A-level maths and physics exams and being totally honest with myself, there is absolutely no difference between them and the LC.
I have also spoken to many teachers who agree.
Now my point is that I am at a huge disadvantage because of this unfair system. Because say if I apply to BA and they look at my grades, then also discover I was made do a foundation year. Theyre gonna look to the fdn year and Will most definitely lose all interest in me based on me doing it. Clearly this is going to be one hell of a putoff for BA and my application will be out the window simply because the LC exams are wrongly deemed to not be to A level standard. I also forgot to add that in ireland we do 7 a-levels.
Now it ain't BA's fault that UCAS or NARIC don't value the LC enough, but my point is also that raising the educational bar so high gets rid of many perfectly competent applicants who (like me) are at a total disadvantage simply because of their type of exams done. Meaning that despite excellent grades, some people are out of the race before the applications even open. I mean the LC were the highest level of exams I could do, its not as though i opted out of A-levels.
Now I have seen the english A-level maths and physics exams and being totally honest with myself, there is absolutely no difference between them and the LC.
I have also spoken to many teachers who agree.
Now my point is that I am at a huge disadvantage because of this unfair system. Because say if I apply to BA and they look at my grades, then also discover I was made do a foundation year. Theyre gonna look to the fdn year and Will most definitely lose all interest in me based on me doing it. Clearly this is going to be one hell of a putoff for BA and my application will be out the window simply because the LC exams are wrongly deemed to not be to A level standard. I also forgot to add that in ireland we do 7 a-levels.
Now it ain't BA's fault that UCAS or NARIC don't value the LC enough, but my point is also that raising the educational bar so high gets rid of many perfectly competent applicants who (like me) are at a total disadvantage simply because of their type of exams done. Meaning that despite excellent grades, some people are out of the race before the applications even open. I mean the LC were the highest level of exams I could do, its not as though i opted out of A-levels.
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Momo95, where in the UK have you been looking? Can't speak for England or Wales, but Scottish universities do accept and understand the Irish Leaving Certificate. Certainly Glasgow and Strathclyde (both have very good aeronautical or aeromechanical engineering courses) accept students with Irish qualifications, although you would need an A at both Maths and Physics, with a minimum of AAAB (Strathclyde) or AAAA (Glasgow) (Glasgow will possibly accept AAABB if either of Maths or Physics is a B, although the other must be an A). Perhaps the foundation year is being offered because of the B grades in both subjects? For Scottish applicants applying with highers, they'd make anyone with B's in Maths and Physics do advanced highers before accepting them, or a foundation course. I'd imagine it'd be the same with the ILC.
*Edited to stress that those are minimum requirements and don't guarantee a place, particularly if they can fill the course with students with 5 or 6 A grades.
As far as comparing ILC to A level, one ILC exam counts as 2/3 of an A level, according to the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland.
Incidentally, as an Irish citizen, you also wouldn't pay any fees north of the border.
Best of luck.
*Edited to stress that those are minimum requirements and don't guarantee a place, particularly if they can fill the course with students with 5 or 6 A grades.
As far as comparing ILC to A level, one ILC exam counts as 2/3 of an A level, according to the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland.
Incidentally, as an Irish citizen, you also wouldn't pay any fees north of the border.
Best of luck.
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Thanks for the reply mayday. I understand what you were saying and it is true in Scotland. But my main issue is with how the exam is viewed in england as that is where I had to come to. Understandably BA will say to themselves if he can't even go straight onto year 1 at uni, then how can we trust him to complete ATPL theory to our desired level ?. It makes perfect sense, and that is why I am saying that BA should consider lowering the educational bar slightly lower to accomodate for people who are at an unfair advantage due to the type of exams they had to sit.
Also I would have still paid full price in Scotland as I am a UK (england) citizen.
Also I would have still paid full price in Scotland as I am a UK (england) citizen.
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Indians in to BAFPP
Hello guys,
Do BA accepts Indian citizens into their BAFPP? And how much success rate one would expect Indian national in to BAFPP? And Do anyone know any Indians successfully entered in BAFPP in previous years..all answers are appreciated....thanks and cheers...
Do BA accepts Indian citizens into their BAFPP? And how much success rate one would expect Indian national in to BAFPP? And Do anyone know any Indians successfully entered in BAFPP in previous years..all answers are appreciated....thanks and cheers...
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You must hold a valid passport, have the indefinite right to live and work in the UK, with the ability to travel worldwide without restriction.
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Momo95, I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be eligible to apply? BA are asking for the equivalent of A levels at BBC or Scottish highers at BBBB. Your 297 UCAS points is above the BBC equivalent, which would be 280 points. If you can provide a NARIC statement to that effect then it should at least allow you to apply. (ie. The type of exams you sit are not a hurdle, it's only the grades or their equivalent, which aren't worked out by BA but by the relevant qualifications authorities, who then work out how different exams systems compare. Basically, either you have the BBC A level equivalent or you don't...if you don't, then you need a 2:2 or a postgrad. Pretty straightforward!)
You can work out UCAS equivalents here: Tariff Tables | UCAS | UCAS Tariff Table & UCAS Tariff Points
...and get the NARIC stuff here: NARIC - Statement of Comparability
Obviously any further qualifications are only ever going to be a good thing, but if you'd only just started a degree course you wouldn't be able to put it in your application anyway, as you wouldn't have completed the degree. You could, of course, still talk about it during any subsequent interviews (should you so desire). There will undoubtedly be plenty of applicants who wouldn't be able to walk into an aeronautical engineering degree.
In my current career I've worked with a fair few individuals who required an access or foundation year after not initially having the grades for their desired course; to my mind, it just showed that they were prepared to go the extra mile and spend the extra year to get their qualifications. Whether they'd done access courses or foundations years prior to starting year 1 of their course, it didn't have any bearing on how well they ultimately did in their degree or, for that matter, in their job.
Are you sure you're not being held back in your applications by those B grades, rather than the Irish qualifications? Don't know where you've been applying but every one of the bigger departments seems to want A grades with maths and physics, wherever your did your schooling. Is there anywhere advertising an aerospace/aeronautical engineering course with B/B Maths/Physics as an entry requirement?
That's a bummer about the fee situation.
As far as lowering the bar, probably worth a look at Bealzebub's post (#1076) on the previous page.
You can work out UCAS equivalents here: Tariff Tables | UCAS | UCAS Tariff Table & UCAS Tariff Points
...and get the NARIC stuff here: NARIC - Statement of Comparability
Obviously any further qualifications are only ever going to be a good thing, but if you'd only just started a degree course you wouldn't be able to put it in your application anyway, as you wouldn't have completed the degree. You could, of course, still talk about it during any subsequent interviews (should you so desire). There will undoubtedly be plenty of applicants who wouldn't be able to walk into an aeronautical engineering degree.
In my current career I've worked with a fair few individuals who required an access or foundation year after not initially having the grades for their desired course; to my mind, it just showed that they were prepared to go the extra mile and spend the extra year to get their qualifications. Whether they'd done access courses or foundations years prior to starting year 1 of their course, it didn't have any bearing on how well they ultimately did in their degree or, for that matter, in their job.
Are you sure you're not being held back in your applications by those B grades, rather than the Irish qualifications? Don't know where you've been applying but every one of the bigger departments seems to want A grades with maths and physics, wherever your did your schooling. Is there anywhere advertising an aerospace/aeronautical engineering course with B/B Maths/Physics as an entry requirement?
That's a bummer about the fee situation.
As far as lowering the bar, probably worth a look at Bealzebub's post (#1076) on the previous page.
Last edited by MaydayMaydayMayday; 28th Sep 2013 at 18:44. Reason: Adding links to clarify
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I thought it was pretty straightforward that My issue wasn't in understanding BA's rules on applying !. My issue was that BA may not look favourably on my application because i've been made do a fdn year.
As for the university it was Kingston and they required 220 pts but said they would only offer me the fdn year. Many others, including brunel and hertfordshire also require below 300.
Lastly, for NARIC, (i have gotten the english BBC in Irish equivalent as grades) but my grades don't exactly match. For example would they take AAABB as being equal to AAAAC ?, being honest i'd be very surprised if they didn't. But while trying not to be too pessimistic, say if they don't, then that means despite me getting 297 pts, because the grades don't exactly match they may say no. That is something which has been discussed on here before (with english alevel and whether BA would accept slight differences) and the only way to find out is to speak to NARIC.
As for the university it was Kingston and they required 220 pts but said they would only offer me the fdn year. Many others, including brunel and hertfordshire also require below 300.
Lastly, for NARIC, (i have gotten the english BBC in Irish equivalent as grades) but my grades don't exactly match. For example would they take AAABB as being equal to AAAAC ?, being honest i'd be very surprised if they didn't. But while trying not to be too pessimistic, say if they don't, then that means despite me getting 297 pts, because the grades don't exactly match they may say no. That is something which has been discussed on here before (with english alevel and whether BA would accept slight differences) and the only way to find out is to speak to NARIC.
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Really don't know precisely how BA would look at it, but I think there's not much point in worrying about something which you wouldn't be explicitly highlighting in the application anyway. If you feel the need to highlight it, fair enough, but it's not like there's not a positive way to look at it. If you were applying for an engineering job then perhaps it'd be different. Best of luck either way.
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Personally I think it's unlikely that BA will take any negative inference from a foundation year.
To be honest I doubt it's much more than an initial screening. I know that my academic quaifications weren't even brought up other than when my certificates were photocopied on the very first day.
In fact, despite being successful on FPP1, I'd have been ineligible to apply for FPP2 at all due to my bare minimum qualifications and the minimum requirements changing. Go figure!
To be honest I doubt it's much more than an initial screening. I know that my academic quaifications weren't even brought up other than when my certificates were photocopied on the very first day.
In fact, despite being successful on FPP1, I'd have been ineligible to apply for FPP2 at all due to my bare minimum qualifications and the minimum requirements changing. Go figure!