British Airways Future Pilot Programme.
Join Date: May 2012
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In fairness GeorgEGNT, I think you're absolutely right that people should be well aware of all the financial aspects of the scheme, including the remuneration should you be sucessful.
However, my point is that once people have made themselves fully aware of these details, the ONLY conclusion that they can come to is that the scheme is an incredible opportunity and is the only scheme of its type currently out there which removes all financial criteria regarding securing loans against parents property etc from the equation, meaning that cadets are all on a level playing field from the outset and not disadvantaged through lack of financial security.
However, my point is that once people have made themselves fully aware of these details, the ONLY conclusion that they can come to is that the scheme is an incredible opportunity and is the only scheme of its type currently out there which removes all financial criteria regarding securing loans against parents property etc from the equation, meaning that cadets are all on a level playing field from the outset and not disadvantaged through lack of financial security.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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1) The BA FAQs state that no tattoos should be visible and specifically notes tattoos on necks and forearms. I have a tattoo on my forearm which is not visible with long sleeve shirts - would this be an issue? I can stretch without the shirt sleeve riding up so it remains non-visible.
If only the rest of the assessment were so easy!
Join Date: Nov 2012
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RobinJFisher
I think you'd be crazy not to mention a forearm tattoo if they specifically mention them in the FAQs. All you can do is be up front about it and if they think there's a way around it then great. Really not sure you could get through an entire career in long sleeves, but all you can do is ask.
With regard to accommodation, best thing would be to call the FTOs directly and you'll have a pretty quick answer.
I know with FTE you're not allowed guests staying in your room on campus, but don't know about the prospect of living off campus.
I think you'd be crazy not to mention a forearm tattoo if they specifically mention them in the FAQs. All you can do is be up front about it and if they think there's a way around it then great. Really not sure you could get through an entire career in long sleeves, but all you can do is ask.
With regard to accommodation, best thing would be to call the FTOs directly and you'll have a pretty quick answer.
I know with FTE you're not allowed guests staying in your room on campus, but don't know about the prospect of living off campus.
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George is right to ask about living conditions/salaries etc and to check that he can afford it etc.
The only thing I will add is that if you can not afford this, you can not afford to be an airline pilot! It is that simple.
Yes people do commute from all over, but I'd strongly suggest that as a new line pilot you do not want a long commute as you'll be exhausted as operating into LHR is a very tough gig for your first job these days.
The only thing I will add is that if you can not afford this, you can not afford to be an airline pilot! It is that simple.
Yes people do commute from all over, but I'd strongly suggest that as a new line pilot you do not want a long commute as you'll be exhausted as operating into LHR is a very tough gig for your first job these days.
Join Date: Oct 2013
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I've got another quick question!!
For those who have applied before can you save your online application at various stages after writing one essay answer for example ? I've got lots of uni essay deadlines pilling up so ideally I'd like to complete the application over a few days.
Thanks
For those who have applied before can you save your online application at various stages after writing one essay answer for example ? I've got lots of uni essay deadlines pilling up so ideally I'd like to complete the application over a few days.
Thanks
Join Date: Nov 2013
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In an attempt to unblinker you
I have for a long time been concerned by the amount of good data which people have on the industry and the terms. I have in fact had this conversation with senior BALPA guys and until recently they considered that cadets were not their problem, that is starting to change, please refer to their website and youtube videos.
My purpose here is to highlight the downsides, I certainly wont be drawn into long debates and negative responses to this.
To many I have been very lucky, sponsored through my training and moved on quickly to easyJet and now BA. I have always passed everything, been promoted and recruited much faster than is likely on average.
What you dont hear is this: 'A lot of pilots in BA are very unhappy and hate the job / airline / lifestyle'
I once spent the whole day dissuading a member of crew from applying to this or any other scheme and to not follow a career in aviatipon. He left by saying thanks for ruining my dream.
I have also spent the day with guys who hove spent over £100k mortgaged their parents home and have very little to show for it, who claim that nobody ever warned them, I ask them whether they feel that they should have done more homework and should they shoulder some of the responsibility, they usually feel that the school led them into it...
Firstly you must look at incentives:
The schools need your money or they will go bust quite quickly
The airlines need cheap first officers
The union needs subs and newbies to pay the old guys their salaries
Nobody buy nobody cares about you or your lifestyle, you only need to look at BA mixed fleet cabin crew to see that. I often spend time with these guys too, and they are often crying, catching a coach to glasgow to go home to save £15 on the cost of a stby.
Most people become pilots and crew because they 'know instinctively' that thats what they need to do. This is not the case, it will wear off very quickly.
I do not currently know a single person I trained with who doesnt want to get out of flying.
A great many people (myself included) are now considering joining Emirates, this is a last desperate attempt to earn enough monrey to have any kind of lifestyle and a big part of that is that there you may get command quite quickly and be able to move if you have to. As a first officer you are basically worthless in the industry, and only jet command time on something over 50T will really help.
The only time I recommend this path now is to those who are not particularly gifted academically and whose parents cant help them into a professional career, to these folks the £80 - £100k may be a wise investment in increasing future earnings above what was likely to have been achieved.
For those with any kind of ability whatsoever almost any other professional path would be better.
This path will lead to a poor lifestyle, low earnings and a very disrupted life in general. Please also consider that the older pilots in any airline will also want you to join as they recognise that you are needed to keep the show on the road to pay their salaries.
New entrant pilots into BA can expect that throughout their entire career (job is a better word) they will have low pay and very poor prospects for command.
The recent BALPA letter highlights how dire the promotional prospects are.
Make no mistake, you need to be a captain in todays aviation world and in that respect you are far far better off joining easyJet / Ryanair or a ME carrier. Though as I say the best bet is to stay flying as a PPL and forget becoming a commercial pilot.
Very few people will listen to this advice. And you will not hear it that much, it is actually very upsetting to write this as it crystallises your own worst fears.
It takes big balls indeed not to apply to this, not to join BA when you get the chance. But this is not the place to be and has not been for 15 years.
At least ive let you know and anybody who can become a solicitor / accountant / doctor / work anywhere in finance at all, surely should. Most of you will apply and most will not succeed, to those I would say that you are by far the better for not getting in, I wish I never had.
Best of luck
My purpose here is to highlight the downsides, I certainly wont be drawn into long debates and negative responses to this.
To many I have been very lucky, sponsored through my training and moved on quickly to easyJet and now BA. I have always passed everything, been promoted and recruited much faster than is likely on average.
What you dont hear is this: 'A lot of pilots in BA are very unhappy and hate the job / airline / lifestyle'
I once spent the whole day dissuading a member of crew from applying to this or any other scheme and to not follow a career in aviatipon. He left by saying thanks for ruining my dream.
I have also spent the day with guys who hove spent over £100k mortgaged their parents home and have very little to show for it, who claim that nobody ever warned them, I ask them whether they feel that they should have done more homework and should they shoulder some of the responsibility, they usually feel that the school led them into it...
Firstly you must look at incentives:
The schools need your money or they will go bust quite quickly
The airlines need cheap first officers
The union needs subs and newbies to pay the old guys their salaries
Nobody buy nobody cares about you or your lifestyle, you only need to look at BA mixed fleet cabin crew to see that. I often spend time with these guys too, and they are often crying, catching a coach to glasgow to go home to save £15 on the cost of a stby.
Most people become pilots and crew because they 'know instinctively' that thats what they need to do. This is not the case, it will wear off very quickly.
I do not currently know a single person I trained with who doesnt want to get out of flying.
A great many people (myself included) are now considering joining Emirates, this is a last desperate attempt to earn enough monrey to have any kind of lifestyle and a big part of that is that there you may get command quite quickly and be able to move if you have to. As a first officer you are basically worthless in the industry, and only jet command time on something over 50T will really help.
The only time I recommend this path now is to those who are not particularly gifted academically and whose parents cant help them into a professional career, to these folks the £80 - £100k may be a wise investment in increasing future earnings above what was likely to have been achieved.
For those with any kind of ability whatsoever almost any other professional path would be better.
This path will lead to a poor lifestyle, low earnings and a very disrupted life in general. Please also consider that the older pilots in any airline will also want you to join as they recognise that you are needed to keep the show on the road to pay their salaries.
New entrant pilots into BA can expect that throughout their entire career (job is a better word) they will have low pay and very poor prospects for command.
The recent BALPA letter highlights how dire the promotional prospects are.
Make no mistake, you need to be a captain in todays aviation world and in that respect you are far far better off joining easyJet / Ryanair or a ME carrier. Though as I say the best bet is to stay flying as a PPL and forget becoming a commercial pilot.
Very few people will listen to this advice. And you will not hear it that much, it is actually very upsetting to write this as it crystallises your own worst fears.
It takes big balls indeed not to apply to this, not to join BA when you get the chance. But this is not the place to be and has not been for 15 years.
At least ive let you know and anybody who can become a solicitor / accountant / doctor / work anywhere in finance at all, surely should. Most of you will apply and most will not succeed, to those I would say that you are by far the better for not getting in, I wish I never had.
Best of luck
Join Date: Nov 2013
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US Citizen applying?
First, I'd like to start out by asking if anyone has known of or is aware of any Americans applying.
Next, I apologize ahead of time and have read the requirements that only if one has the right to live and work in the UK can one be eligible to apply. I've read into work visa requirements and one condition of obtaining work visa status would be to have gained employment already in the UK, so I see there is a Catch 22 already with possibly applying to this program....
Still, I figured it can't hurt to ask. A little background - I've just about missed opportunities early on in my life to become a commercial pilot. Instead of pursuing a lifelong desire in aviation (civilian and military), the then young person in me chose to serve in the infantry and, upon leaving military service, chose a career in law enforcement and related security fields. Later on in life, I obtained my Private Pilot's License and only then realized what I had missed all these years. The career progression of a pilot starting out in the US, in my research, is a long and arduous path ripe with low pay and a lot of time serving the regional carriers. The BA FPP seems like an excellent opportunity to start a career in commercial aviation (that and fulfill a desire to live and work in the UK).
Thank you
Next, I apologize ahead of time and have read the requirements that only if one has the right to live and work in the UK can one be eligible to apply. I've read into work visa requirements and one condition of obtaining work visa status would be to have gained employment already in the UK, so I see there is a Catch 22 already with possibly applying to this program....
Still, I figured it can't hurt to ask. A little background - I've just about missed opportunities early on in my life to become a commercial pilot. Instead of pursuing a lifelong desire in aviation (civilian and military), the then young person in me chose to serve in the infantry and, upon leaving military service, chose a career in law enforcement and related security fields. Later on in life, I obtained my Private Pilot's License and only then realized what I had missed all these years. The career progression of a pilot starting out in the US, in my research, is a long and arduous path ripe with low pay and a lot of time serving the regional carriers. The BA FPP seems like an excellent opportunity to start a career in commercial aviation (that and fulfill a desire to live and work in the UK).
Thank you
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David Paul, what planet do you live on, are you sure you work at the same BA that I do? At BA a command is not the be all and end all, there's long haul, training FO positions, management positions if that's your thing, a monthly roster bidding system, control over your life and a full career! I'm always flying the baby airbus well over 50T, in fact I flew an A321 at 88T today?..! If you really are considering going out to the gulf, I think the grass will always be greener! It's a 
out there!
But don't talk to potential people for the FPP, it's the best scheme going out there!
out there! But don't talk
to potential people for the FPP, it's the best scheme going out there!
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SinBin, I'd be very surprised if they do actually work at the same BA as you. (Strike me as a thinly veiled troll)
Let's play devil's advocate and say that they do:
Any idea how many unemployed lawyers there are out there at the moment? It's an absolute ton. Not to mention disgruntled, overworked doctors who constantly complain about bureaucracy, lack of sleep and declining T&Cs. Half of the folk I went to medschool with are in precisely that position, with many heading down under after not being able to pick up anything higher than locum work in the UK. Their earnings are not higher than the current BA pay scales year by year. Quite a fair few doctors applied for the FPP last year (at least one successfully) and know of another couple applying this time. They're all aware of what's on offer.
The sector I'm in the process of leaving (another professional role) has seen terms and conditions obliterated since the financial downturn. Two of our academically brilliant staff have had to leave the country (US and Canadian citizens) as there were simply no doctoral level jobs available in the UK. Another PhD left to join the Police purely for the permanent contract and pension.
Nobody's going to become a millionaire off the back of flying for BA, but I'm really finding it difficult to see how the earnings could be described as "low". Compared to most other professions that's simply inaccurate. You're not going to rival top executives, but compared to the vast majority of doctors, dentists and lawyers it's at least on a par. Trust me on that, around 80 of my high school year studied one of the above and went on to work in their respective professions. Thankfully they finished their degrees when the jobs market was far far stronger than it is at the moment, and with far better T&Cs than are on offer today. They still don't have a better range of salaries or lifestyle options that BA offer.
It's not exactly easy to compare apples with pears, especially when you're not clued up on at least one or the other. In this case the apples are certainly comparable to the pears, and a whole lot better than the fruit most other people have in their baskets.
Let's play devil's advocate and say that they do:
Any idea how many unemployed lawyers there are out there at the moment? It's an absolute ton. Not to mention disgruntled, overworked doctors who constantly complain about bureaucracy, lack of sleep and declining T&Cs. Half of the folk I went to medschool with are in precisely that position, with many heading down under after not being able to pick up anything higher than locum work in the UK. Their earnings are not higher than the current BA pay scales year by year. Quite a fair few doctors applied for the FPP last year (at least one successfully) and know of another couple applying this time. They're all aware of what's on offer.
The sector I'm in the process of leaving (another professional role) has seen terms and conditions obliterated since the financial downturn. Two of our academically brilliant staff have had to leave the country (US and Canadian citizens) as there were simply no doctoral level jobs available in the UK. Another PhD left to join the Police purely for the permanent contract and pension.
Nobody's going to become a millionaire off the back of flying for BA, but I'm really finding it difficult to see how the earnings could be described as "low". Compared to most other professions that's simply inaccurate. You're not going to rival top executives, but compared to the vast majority of doctors, dentists and lawyers it's at least on a par. Trust me on that, around 80 of my high school year studied one of the above and went on to work in their respective professions. Thankfully they finished their degrees when the jobs market was far far stronger than it is at the moment, and with far better T&Cs than are on offer today. They still don't have a better range of salaries or lifestyle options that BA offer.
It's not exactly easy to compare apples with pears, especially when you're not clued up on at least one or the other. In this case the apples are certainly comparable to the pears, and a whole lot better than the fruit most other people have in their baskets.
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When applying I think people only really need to consider your last paragraph, if you're just in it for the money then I would suggest the go home advice. Personally there's nothing I'd like to do more than get into this scheme and fly for BA. In fact I even turned down the chance to become an accountant as you suggest :P. Besides looking at the supposed pay scale it's not exactly bad, obviously people who qualify for the scheme could do better, but I wouldn't let my wallet dictate my life.
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While I am also of the opinion that anybody should surely consider the drawbacks of any decision before making it, this just smells fishy...
If you're a legitimate BA pilot, please consider the next few sentences as unspoken.
However, to me, it seems strange that somebody would only sign up here to make a demeaning post about a very desirable cadetship, and the airline that backs it.
If anything, it almost seems like the post is intended to try and discourage some readers to even join the selections. Which could be favorable to the poster, if he has the intention to join the cadetship himself.
To be fair, I know quite a few "old and grey guys" who still absolutely adore flying. Even they would jump at a cadetship like this, were it not that they're all just a tad bit too old.
In short,
If you're truly a BA pilot: thanks for the other side of the coin.
If you're not... I feel very sad for you.
If you're a legitimate BA pilot, please consider the next few sentences as unspoken.
However, to me, it seems strange that somebody would only sign up here to make a demeaning post about a very desirable cadetship, and the airline that backs it.
If anything, it almost seems like the post is intended to try and discourage some readers to even join the selections. Which could be favorable to the poster, if he has the intention to join the cadetship himself.
To be fair, I know quite a few "old and grey guys" who still absolutely adore flying. Even they would jump at a cadetship like this, were it not that they're all just a tad bit too old.
In short,
If you're truly a BA pilot: thanks for the other side of the coin.
If you're not... I feel very sad for you.
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On reading his post further, he knows very little of the FPP deal or even BA, and is most probably a troll. I don't ever remember Easyjet sponsoring people!
Morale has taken a kicking recently, but I wouldn't want to be elsewhere? If it's that bad then bugger off, in my view!
Earnings are perceived as low to start with, but you're a cadet, effectively paying off a loan that BA has guaranteed, rather like starting on a graduate/internship/apprenticeship scheme. I seem to remember my first job on a graduate scheme, i earned £17,000. After a only a few years you'll be on the proper payscales earning over £60K. My last P60 was £69k gross, PP3 short haul FO!
Morale has taken a kicking recently, but I wouldn't want to be elsewhere? If it's that bad then bugger off, in my view!
Earnings are perceived as low to start with, but you're a cadet, effectively paying off a loan that BA has guaranteed, rather like starting on a graduate/internship/apprenticeship scheme. I seem to remember my first job on a graduate scheme, i earned £17,000. After a only a few years you'll be on the proper payscales earning over £60K. My last P60 was £69k gross, PP3 short haul FO!
Last edited by SinBin; 4th Nov 2013 at 20:11.
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SinBin, perhaps the old CTC McAlpine scheme? Anyway, I think it's a bit of a moot point.
Entirely of the opinion that people should go into any role with their eyes open, of course. I'm still also of the opinion that BA are offering something extremely worthwhile and exciting.
Entirely of the opinion that people should go into any role with their eyes open, of course. I'm still also of the opinion that BA are offering something extremely worthwhile and exciting.
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david paul - that's a nice work of fiction you've written about yourself.
People must be aware that BA is not a utopia and flying is a world away from even 20 years ago, and will continue a downward trend IMHO. But if you want to do it, and do it in the UK, this is a fantastic opportunity.
If you want to earn £ and compare yourself to your friends that are senior lawyers etc, this is the wrong career for you. It once would have been a good one, but not now and no one wants to be hearing of you having to do overtime to pay for school fees and you bidding trips to maximise allowances. You need to take stock of the lifestyle/pay that a pilot entering the job today will have, and that's not the same as a 10 year+ skipper.
People must be aware that BA is not a utopia and flying is a world away from even 20 years ago, and will continue a downward trend IMHO. But if you want to do it, and do it in the UK, this is a fantastic opportunity.
If you want to earn £ and compare yourself to your friends that are senior lawyers etc, this is the wrong career for you. It once would have been a good one, but not now and no one wants to be hearing of you having to do overtime to pay for school fees and you bidding trips to maximise allowances. You need to take stock of the lifestyle/pay that a pilot entering the job today will have, and that's not the same as a 10 year+ skipper.
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There are better schemes than BA out there, take a look at Aer Lingus:
Charge to get selected: Free vs 200/ 250 at BA
Class 1 Medical: Free vs 300+ at BA
Need to buy life assurance ? No vs Yes at BA
Selection partly outsourced ? No vs Yes at BA
Loan Required for training: 21,500 (25k EUR) vs 90,000 at BA
Starting Salary: 35,000 vs 22,000 at BA
Time to reach the highest pay point: 26 years vs 34 at BA (both top out at ~ 150k GBP)
The BA scheme might be the best in the UK, but I do agree that if BA did really want the best candidates they could make the financial aspects of the scheme better.
Charge to get selected: Free vs 200/ 250 at BA
Class 1 Medical: Free vs 300+ at BA
Need to buy life assurance ? No vs Yes at BA
Selection partly outsourced ? No vs Yes at BA
Loan Required for training: 21,500 (25k EUR) vs 90,000 at BA
Starting Salary: 35,000 vs 22,000 at BA
Time to reach the highest pay point: 26 years vs 34 at BA (both top out at ~ 150k GBP)
The BA scheme might be the best in the UK, but I do agree that if BA did really want the best candidates they could make the financial aspects of the scheme better.
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I disagree that it's "far superior" financially. That depends on how you look at it. If it were financially "far superior", then how come I can't afford the AL programme yet I can afford the BA FPP?
[my emphasis]
What this means is that you'll be required to find 25000 Euros yourself. To the best of my knowledge this won't be guaranteed by AL, and it's virtually impossible to otherwise acquire it without securing it against a property. Few people who might be young enough to get the most out of this career own such a property. So immediately family would be required to help. Furthermore, it would be difficult to get any kind of two-year payment holiday before having to start repaying such a loan, so (again) family would be required to start servicing such a debt almost immediately. And don't forget, a debt of 25000 is still a lot of money to repay. Moreover, a further 25000 Euros would be paid up by a reduced salary for the first few years of employment. So while I accept that this still represents a good opportunity given the alternatives if one were to go it alone, it's not as inclusive as the BA FPP.
With BA they guarantee your loan, so no need to secure it against a house. On top of that, there's a payment break for the duration of training, so no need to start paying it back while you're training. And then when you get a job with them, they'll pay you £1000 tax free per month on top of your salary for the first seven years of employment to service the vast majority of the debt (effectively paying for the entire cost of the training). Obviously there is interest in both cases, but that's not going to be vastly different in either case.
The cost of the initial screening process that hatchet refers to is pretty inconsequential, given the vast numbers we're talking about. And quite frankly Aer Lingus could probably do with outsourcing their selection process because they have made a complete nonsense of it themselves, where nobody has a clue where they stand even weeks or months after AL said they would.
AL: The approximate cost of the initial training programme is €100,000. If you are successful in your application you will be required to fund approximately 25% of this training cost during the course. Upon successful completion of the course, a further 25% approximately will be recovered by Aer Lingus by means of reduced salary over a number of years. The full details of this will be outlined at a later stage in the recruitment process.
What this means is that you'll be required to find 25000 Euros yourself. To the best of my knowledge this won't be guaranteed by AL, and it's virtually impossible to otherwise acquire it without securing it against a property. Few people who might be young enough to get the most out of this career own such a property. So immediately family would be required to help. Furthermore, it would be difficult to get any kind of two-year payment holiday before having to start repaying such a loan, so (again) family would be required to start servicing such a debt almost immediately. And don't forget, a debt of 25000 is still a lot of money to repay. Moreover, a further 25000 Euros would be paid up by a reduced salary for the first few years of employment. So while I accept that this still represents a good opportunity given the alternatives if one were to go it alone, it's not as inclusive as the BA FPP.
With BA they guarantee your loan, so no need to secure it against a house. On top of that, there's a payment break for the duration of training, so no need to start paying it back while you're training. And then when you get a job with them, they'll pay you £1000 tax free per month on top of your salary for the first seven years of employment to service the vast majority of the debt (effectively paying for the entire cost of the training). Obviously there is interest in both cases, but that's not going to be vastly different in either case.
The cost of the initial screening process that hatchet refers to is pretty inconsequential, given the vast numbers we're talking about. And quite frankly Aer Lingus could probably do with outsourcing their selection process because they have made a complete nonsense of it themselves, where nobody has a clue where they stand even weeks or months after AL said they would.
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It appears that each time the FPP comes round, somebody appears on the forums to explain the myriad reasons why one wouldn't want to apply for it. This year, it's david paul. Last year, hatchet h.
Have asked OAA about the accommodation situation and eagerly awaiting a response. I withdrew from the process last year due to a change in my personal situation so hoping this won't count against me.
Have asked OAA about the accommodation situation and eagerly awaiting a response. I withdrew from the process last year due to a change in my personal situation so hoping this won't count against me.