Humiliation in Canada
This guy started washing aircraft in exchange for flying lessons
I am no pilot (unless you include hang gliders), but I did attend a talk given by Ed Mitchell, who started at the bottom. If it's good enough for him....
Edgar Mitchell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Edgar Mitchell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have flown Airbus and Boeing for nine years. Before that I worked the ramp fueling and sweeping hangar floors as a fully qualified Multiengine instrument instructor. If more of the little Emperors in the LHS had done a bit of ramp work they would understand and utilise the crews alot better.
There is never humiliation in work.
There is never humiliation in work.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northampton
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Through doing hard work I developed that respect of people from all backgrounds that so many people my age lack.
I chose a non-flying job (outside aviation completely) over a flying job (flying on a basic CPL) because it paid circa £300 a month more. That's £300 a month more I can drop into the bank. In approx. 2 years I will have enough to complete training, and enough over to pay for a type rating (if I so wished...) or get dirty again flying proper aeroplanes in the fun places of the world, safe in the knowledge that I earned every penny and built some real character along the way.
Humiliating? Pah, when needs must
I chose a non-flying job (outside aviation completely) over a flying job (flying on a basic CPL) because it paid circa £300 a month more. That's £300 a month more I can drop into the bank. In approx. 2 years I will have enough to complete training, and enough over to pay for a type rating (if I so wished...) or get dirty again flying proper aeroplanes in the fun places of the world, safe in the knowledge that I earned every penny and built some real character along the way.
Humiliating? Pah, when needs must
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it voluntary to work for Buffalo Airways, or do they snatch people off the streets in the neighbourhood and chain them to the ramp?
Just don't tell a certain Irish Airline that pilots know how to load baggage.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.....a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff that could be done by anyone before they even get a chance to get in the right seat.....
Last edited by WanganuiLad; 20th Sep 2012 at 12:27.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 50
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apart from all discussions about the spoilt youth as opposed to the rugged old-timers (being documented in ancient Greece already) or whether pressure makes diamonds or merely more compact garbage (to quote from a Dilbert strip): is it really helpful for the proficiency and currency of a pilot to do all kinds of support work (instructive and character-building as it may be) without flying an aeroplane for several months?
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
I don't know if the original poster is for real or not but I was bloody glad to get my first turboprop job, which involved heavy loading of 2 tons of newspapers at 6 am every morning and about the same amount of cargo and freight every afternoon. It was actually a pleasant change for me because before that, I was hand loading hospital stretchers with massively obese patients on them, into the back of a Chieftain in a New Zealand flying-doctor kind of setup.
It's all about attitude, our chief pilot who was ex-RAF fast jet and ex-Cathay was just as happy to muck in and do the heavy lifting. And my wife was ecstatically happy to get the same job, when her turn came around.
Three years of that and I got a good job on the A320, if that's "humiliation" then I heartily recommend it to anyone
Having subsequently worked with a number of Egyptians at Qatar Airways, I have to say I'm not at all surprised to see the nationality of the original poster or that he might consider such a thing as hard work to be "humiliation"
It's all about attitude, our chief pilot who was ex-RAF fast jet and ex-Cathay was just as happy to muck in and do the heavy lifting. And my wife was ecstatically happy to get the same job, when her turn came around.
Three years of that and I got a good job on the A320, if that's "humiliation" then I heartily recommend it to anyone
Having subsequently worked with a number of Egyptians at Qatar Airways, I have to say I'm not at all surprised to see the nationality of the original poster or that he might consider such a thing as hard work to be "humiliation"
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: huj
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is it really helpful for the proficiency and currency of a pilot to do all kinds of support work (instructive and character-building as it may be) without flying an aeroplane for several months?
Many smaller operators, skydive outfits, smaller flying schools etc operate on a similar principle. They can't have passengers or glory boys or personalities that clash with their collegues. That's how I got my first flying job. I kept turning up with my smiling face until they got fed up and let me loose on one of their aeroplanes. When the the other pilot left I moved into his job. The pilot who followed me got the same treatment. But others came and went despite them saying they would 'do anything to fly with us'. Apparently turning up regularly and mucking in wasn't one of things they would do. Fail!
Looking at the first series of Ice Pilots there was a character who typified the problem. He bitched a lot and wondered why people were passing him by. Disappeared by the second series unsurprisingly.
Sorts out the Skygods from the pilots.
Last edited by bluecode; 21st Sep 2012 at 15:22.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 50
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Acknowledged, but even if I was sufficiently tough and motivated to be an ice rampie for several months or years, I'd be worried about skill loss and asking myself about the point if all I get to do has little to nothing to do with actual flying. Thoroughly testing for cultural fit, eliminating any skygod attitude etc. is all cool and pro, but there is IMHO some latitude between immediately complimenting a potential new hire into the cockpit and keeping him/her out of it for several months or years to check his preparedness to accept ground duties. And referring to a previous post*), I certainly doubt that months of ramp work are any effective prevention of further "37,000 ft plunges".
Anyway, one must probably not forget that what one gets to see is a TV show. The reality might not be quite as black & white (and full of uncompromising starting-from-scratch-and-remaining-there-for-months-or-years romanticism), so actually new hires may get to log some flying time in addition to doing a fair share of ramp work :-?
*) http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/495961-humiliation-canada.html#post742371
Anyway, one must probably not forget that what one gets to see is a TV show. The reality might not be quite as black & white (and full of uncompromising starting-from-scratch-and-remaining-there-for-months-or-years romanticism), so actually new hires may get to log some flying time in addition to doing a fair share of ramp work :-?
*) http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/495961-humiliation-canada.html#post742371
Nothing like missing the context.
That statement had nothing to do with doing ramp work. It had everything to do with having an attitude of entitlement. It lamented that the OP seemed unwilling to build experience in the industry from the basics on up, and would rather buy their way into a big jet and then belittle the experience of those who got there the hard way.
If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ...
Last edited by J.O.; 22nd Sep 2012 at 02:00.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, I pushed planes around, had my overalls disintegrate one day when some plonked spilled hydraulic fluid on me......worked only for flying hours for 9 months.....etc.
These were the days of the self improvers, unfortunately I never improved but it did get me a shot at a jet 7 years later.
These were the days of the self improvers, unfortunately I never improved but it did get me a shot at a jet 7 years later.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 50
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing like missing the context.
That statement had nothing to do with doing ramp work. It had everything to do with having an attitude of entitlement. It lamented that the OP seemed unwilling to build experience in the industry from the basics on up, and would rather buy their way into a big jet and then belittle the experience of those who got there the hard way.
If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ...
Still, I maintain that an "attitude of entitlement" (or just wanting to fly instead of merely doing ramp work when applying for a pilot job) doesn't contribute nearly as much to potential 37k feet plunges as a lack of currency and practice.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Undershoot
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Guys
I left the UK having done my PPl Night and IMC, as there was little hope of a job in the UK I came here to Canada and did my hour building, IFR and twin for half the price.
I worked a ramp for a year which is a really good way to weed out the guys who are weak minded, weak in character and have little substance.
It tends, not all the time granted, but it tends to give you the type of guys that after a year of hard work and hardship are what are need in the cockpit in terms of CRM, learning and listening from their captains, putting in the hard work before and post flight, will not just walk away from the aircraft at the end of the day, will help out the ground crews, know lots already about the plane as they have studied it for a year as to be ready for their chance and be the type of guys (and girls) you can rely on on a very cold winters night shooting an approach at a uncontrolled airport.
May be for some of us its a dream that we are willing to do any thing for.
In fact I so impressed with the Canadian way I am writing a book about it.
Hope you guys will like it.
My hard work put me in the right seat of the BE02, no auto pilot, learning so much every day. Hope you understand everything thats going on in your Jet first day you sit in it.
Canada has it right I pray they keep their system and it doesn't turn in to the utter sadness that I see in the UK
Keep the faith you guys that watch planes as kids and dreamt, there's always a way.
I left the UK having done my PPl Night and IMC, as there was little hope of a job in the UK I came here to Canada and did my hour building, IFR and twin for half the price.
I worked a ramp for a year which is a really good way to weed out the guys who are weak minded, weak in character and have little substance.
It tends, not all the time granted, but it tends to give you the type of guys that after a year of hard work and hardship are what are need in the cockpit in terms of CRM, learning and listening from their captains, putting in the hard work before and post flight, will not just walk away from the aircraft at the end of the day, will help out the ground crews, know lots already about the plane as they have studied it for a year as to be ready for their chance and be the type of guys (and girls) you can rely on on a very cold winters night shooting an approach at a uncontrolled airport.
May be for some of us its a dream that we are willing to do any thing for.
In fact I so impressed with the Canadian way I am writing a book about it.
Hope you guys will like it.
My hard work put me in the right seat of the BE02, no auto pilot, learning so much every day. Hope you understand everything thats going on in your Jet first day you sit in it.
Canada has it right I pray they keep their system and it doesn't turn in to the utter sadness that I see in the UK
Keep the faith you guys that watch planes as kids and dreamt, there's always a way.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems to me the OP didn't really watch the show. The young folks vying for some RHS time in the DC-3 were pleased as heck to be there. And the company boss, when he had them flying with him was teaching the whole time. He wanted them prepared (read the manuals, imagine that!), and understanding the responsibility involved from the very first minute in the aircraft.
He was a serious and hard-nosed teacher (well, except the time the Great Dane crapped all over the cabin), because it's a serious and hard-nosed environment he's operating in. His young trainees should be honored to be there, and they'll turn out well.
(**Full disclosure: just a PPL here!)
He was a serious and hard-nosed teacher (well, except the time the Great Dane crapped all over the cabin), because it's a serious and hard-nosed environment he's operating in. His young trainees should be honored to be there, and they'll turn out well.
(**Full disclosure: just a PPL here!)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: europe
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being from the Land of Ice and Snow, and having gone thru my dues, I find no problem with the system. I lived and worked up in Yellowknife doing cargo, tickets, boarding then flight watch. To say I learnt something is an understatment. I was a young man with dreams of flying in my eyes. This "humiliating" work opened my eyes to appreciate what it takes for a plane to go from A to B.
Aviation is teamwork. Not just in the cockpit, but the entire company. When I see a guy outside in the driving rain and sleet struggling to do his job, I don't sit there and slag him off for being slow. I understand the difficulty of his job. I have flown with countless young FO's who want to blame the ground crews for being two minutes late. They have no idea. They have mostly never done a hard days work in their lives.
Working your way up from the ramp is IMHO part of your aviation apprentiship. Use the time to learn and you will become a better pilot. It shows. It really does.
Aviation is teamwork. Not just in the cockpit, but the entire company. When I see a guy outside in the driving rain and sleet struggling to do his job, I don't sit there and slag him off for being slow. I understand the difficulty of his job. I have flown with countless young FO's who want to blame the ground crews for being two minutes late. They have no idea. They have mostly never done a hard days work in their lives.
Working your way up from the ramp is IMHO part of your aviation apprentiship. Use the time to learn and you will become a better pilot. It shows. It really does.