Thomson Recruiting from Monday 3rd Sep
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I am sorry but I don't understand why Thompson would employ CTC cadets for 8 months, pay for their TR and then let them go. It makes less sense if we think that they are looking for new pilots...
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Vik
It would not just be CTC cadets, our defintion of a cadet is a guy with nothing more than a Frozen ATPL, it doesn't matter how s/he came about it.
As to the why, very simple. The nature of the charter business in the UK is still one of massive demand in the summer, less so in winter. If a company takes a pilot on full time they are paying them to work hard in summer and less so in winter. The money men love the idea of having enough full time guys to cover the winter and hiring in contract pilots in summer.
BALPA hates this contract free for all, it drives down just about everything but that is an argument for another place. This scheme is two way, we get pilots flying punters to wherever for 6 months after the first 2 months or so of groundschool and sim.Yes we train them but the other side is we get the extra pilots we we need in summer but don't have to pay them when we don't need them in winter and the company gets its money back for the training by means of a significantly reduced salary.
It isn't perfect but it is a whole world better than contract and IMHO a whole solar system better than the no fly, no pay FlexiCrew type set up which I find abhorrent and not far off the 1920's working man hoping to catch the foreman's eye at the factory gate in order to get a days work and pay. If he failed, he starved.
The added bonus here is tat the cadet is subject to our full MoA agreements and gets allowances etc on top and because there is no middle man there is no skimming off the top of what is left from repaying training costs, it goes to the cadet.
I have tried very hard to not stir up the debate on the rights and wrongs of the practices of certain training organisations but this scheme opens up the field to other pilots trying to get that all important first job. No matter what anyone says, these schemes depend to some extent on the ability to pay and if you can't pay or can't take a year + out of your life then options until now were limited.
Consider this; two identical candidates, both excellent. One is 20 and has the ability to raise the funds and has no responsibilities. The is other is 25 and trying to change career and cannot raise the funds because he has a mortgage, a wife looking after a baby who can't work and maybe another kid. Currently the first can demonstrate his excellence and fly through to a job, the second can't - no less excellent, just unable to raise the funds and /or put his life on hold for a year or more. We want to be able to offer the chance to both these excellent candidates regardless of whether its taken them 14 months or 14 years to get their ticket.
And before I get shouted at, for he / his above, read equally she / her!
It would not just be CTC cadets, our defintion of a cadet is a guy with nothing more than a Frozen ATPL, it doesn't matter how s/he came about it.
As to the why, very simple. The nature of the charter business in the UK is still one of massive demand in the summer, less so in winter. If a company takes a pilot on full time they are paying them to work hard in summer and less so in winter. The money men love the idea of having enough full time guys to cover the winter and hiring in contract pilots in summer.
BALPA hates this contract free for all, it drives down just about everything but that is an argument for another place. This scheme is two way, we get pilots flying punters to wherever for 6 months after the first 2 months or so of groundschool and sim.Yes we train them but the other side is we get the extra pilots we we need in summer but don't have to pay them when we don't need them in winter and the company gets its money back for the training by means of a significantly reduced salary.
It isn't perfect but it is a whole world better than contract and IMHO a whole solar system better than the no fly, no pay FlexiCrew type set up which I find abhorrent and not far off the 1920's working man hoping to catch the foreman's eye at the factory gate in order to get a days work and pay. If he failed, he starved.
The added bonus here is tat the cadet is subject to our full MoA agreements and gets allowances etc on top and because there is no middle man there is no skimming off the top of what is left from repaying training costs, it goes to the cadet.
I have tried very hard to not stir up the debate on the rights and wrongs of the practices of certain training organisations but this scheme opens up the field to other pilots trying to get that all important first job. No matter what anyone says, these schemes depend to some extent on the ability to pay and if you can't pay or can't take a year + out of your life then options until now were limited.
Consider this; two identical candidates, both excellent. One is 20 and has the ability to raise the funds and has no responsibilities. The is other is 25 and trying to change career and cannot raise the funds because he has a mortgage, a wife looking after a baby who can't work and maybe another kid. Currently the first can demonstrate his excellence and fly through to a job, the second can't - no less excellent, just unable to raise the funds and /or put his life on hold for a year or more. We want to be able to offer the chance to both these excellent candidates regardless of whether its taken them 14 months or 14 years to get their ticket.
And before I get shouted at, for he / his above, read equally she / her!
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great post
yeoman
Excellent!!
One of the best approaches to this issue I've seen so far!
Excellent!!
Consider this; two identical candidates, both excellent. One is 20 and has the ability to raise the funds and has no responsibilities. The is other is 25 and trying to change career and cannot raise the funds because he has a mortgage, a wife looking after a baby who can't work and maybe another kid. Currently the first can demonstrate his excellence and fly through to a job, the second can't - no less excellent, just unable to raise the funds and /or put his life on hold for a year or more. We want to be able to offer the chance to both these excellent candidates regardless of whether its taken them 14 months or 14 years to get their ticket.
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Excellent yeoman, thank you very much. However I still find it difficult to understand the reason why Thomson (without the "p" ) are going to hire type-rated pilots when they have 10 cadets with their contracts ending in October (trained by them, type-rated by them and with experience in the airline). Wouldn't it make more sense to keep those 10 cadets for the winter season while they hire new pilots for the summer season as they have done this year? (I am assuming the new pilots will have permanent contracts. If they don't, then forget my reasoning!)
Regards
) are going to hire type-rated pilots when they have 10 cadets with their contracts ending in October (trained by them, type-rated by them and with experience in the airline). Wouldn't it make more sense to keep those 10 cadets for the winter season while they hire new pilots for the summer season as they have done this year? (I am assuming the new pilots will have permanent contracts. If they don't, then forget my reasoning!)Regards
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The current CTC Cadets will be able to go for these jobs as they now have the required type rating and hours. Yeoman will be in a better position than me to answer, but my understanding is that for some legal reason they have to "leave" the Company for a period of time before joining on a new contract. True, they are a known quantity to the Company, but that could work two ways. To be blunt some may have demonstrated some traits in their time here which could count against them in any selection procedure and this presents the opportunity for the Company to have a "second look." As for the costs, well they have essentially funded their own type rating through salary sacrifice, and been occupying an operating seat on revenue sectors during their line training. The only additional cost there is the requirement to fly with a Training Captain. As our in-house type changes were essentially complete when the cadets started their line training and the Training Captains would be flying a normal roster anyway, the additional costs of their line training once additional safety pilots are dispensed with during early sectors are not great. Having flown with many of these cadets both during line training and in the simulator my hope is that the majority would successfully progress to this PPY contract. If so they and future cadet entrants will have much to be grateful for to Yeoman and his colleagues on the Thomson BALPA Company Council who have done a good job against the odds to provide the best possible start for a cadet within Thomson compared to the alternatives. These guys work really hard on our behalf and it's good to see them looking to our future colleagues as well as current pilots within Thomson. Once you have achieved your first stepping stone in our career one of the first considerations should be BALPA membership. End of recruitment drive!
Last edited by Matey; 6th Sep 2012 at 23:19.
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Time for a moan!
I'm a contracting captain on a middle to heavy jet and have over 2000hrs. My work fluctuates and nothing is guaranteed. I'd love to join a UK airline even as a part timer, it would be more predictable than what I do now. However, my type is no longer used in the UK and I would need a TR. I'm happy to be bonded for this. However, everywhere I look it's CTC guys who are the only ones considered. I have vast experience, my 2000 hours are 2000 different hours not the same hour 2000 times, I've flown into over 260 airfields, some of the most challenging in over 70 countries, yet all of this counts for nothing against a 200 hour CTC guy willing to pay for his own type rating.
I'm not trying to sell myself here just reiterating what all DE pilots are sulking about. We are stuck in an industry where safety has taken a backseat to costs due to lack of experience of the operating aircrew (Air France 447, an error that would have been picked up by any UK military trained pilot).
When will the DE military pilot be looked at as a commodity again?
I'm a contracting captain on a middle to heavy jet and have over 2000hrs. My work fluctuates and nothing is guaranteed. I'd love to join a UK airline even as a part timer, it would be more predictable than what I do now. However, my type is no longer used in the UK and I would need a TR. I'm happy to be bonded for this. However, everywhere I look it's CTC guys who are the only ones considered. I have vast experience, my 2000 hours are 2000 different hours not the same hour 2000 times, I've flown into over 260 airfields, some of the most challenging in over 70 countries, yet all of this counts for nothing against a 200 hour CTC guy willing to pay for his own type rating.
I'm not trying to sell myself here just reiterating what all DE pilots are sulking about. We are stuck in an industry where safety has taken a backseat to costs due to lack of experience of the operating aircrew (Air France 447, an error that would have been picked up by any UK military trained pilot).
When will the DE military pilot be looked at as a commodity again?
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Yeoman
Thanks for the reply, I understand, of course nothing is certain these days.
This is the only thing I've heard of that would give you a TR, line training and a salary, albeit small, without having to contribute large sums of money towards. As someone that exhausted all financial resources just to get the license, this would seem like Xmas to me! Even if nothing came after the 8 months at TOM.
I just hope the opportunity comes up in the not too distant future.
It's great work from you yeoman and the other guys/girls involved. Finally steps are being taken that could break the apparent dead-end that many of us modular pilots are facing.
I hope this idea spreads!
Thanks for the reply, I understand, of course nothing is certain these days.
This is the only thing I've heard of that would give you a TR, line training and a salary, albeit small, without having to contribute large sums of money towards. As someone that exhausted all financial resources just to get the license, this would seem like Xmas to me! Even if nothing came after the 8 months at TOM.
I just hope the opportunity comes up in the not too distant future.
It's great work from you yeoman and the other guys/girls involved. Finally steps are being taken that could break the apparent dead-end that many of us modular pilots are facing.
I hope this idea spreads!
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If (and it’s a very big if) Thomson do decide to recruit non rated cadets in the near future then it’s fantastic that modular ladies and gents will be able to apply and I heartily commend the hard work and dedication of Yeoman and their colleagues on the CC for achieving this.
While my heart rejoices at this news I’m afraid that my head is somewhat more sceptical. In the past Thomson has had a policy of recruiting only integrated cadets from CTC etc and just by opening the application process up to modular applicants it doesn’t mean that the tried and tested integrated only recruitment policy will change, it just means that HR will have to wade through many more applications.
The integrated schools that have supplied Thomson in the past will maintain their links with the airline into the future and will try to persuade Thomson to take their graduates in preference to modular applicants. If it all goes ahead it will be extremely interesting to see a break down of the profiles of the cadets selected (age, training school etc etc).
So while the Thomson CC have done (and no doubt are still doing) fantastic work for which they are to be applauded I remain sceptical as to whether or not they can genuinely influence ages old entrenched recruitment policies.
Despite my misgivings will I still apply if and when the cadet recruitment process starts? You better believe it…… Bring it on!!!!!
While my heart rejoices at this news I’m afraid that my head is somewhat more sceptical. In the past Thomson has had a policy of recruiting only integrated cadets from CTC etc and just by opening the application process up to modular applicants it doesn’t mean that the tried and tested integrated only recruitment policy will change, it just means that HR will have to wade through many more applications.
The integrated schools that have supplied Thomson in the past will maintain their links with the airline into the future and will try to persuade Thomson to take their graduates in preference to modular applicants. If it all goes ahead it will be extremely interesting to see a break down of the profiles of the cadets selected (age, training school etc etc).
So while the Thomson CC have done (and no doubt are still doing) fantastic work for which they are to be applauded I remain sceptical as to whether or not they can genuinely influence ages old entrenched recruitment policies.
Despite my misgivings will I still apply if and when the cadet recruitment process starts? You better believe it…… Bring it on!!!!!
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Magicmick, your comments are not quite accurate, TOM has a complete mix of integrated/modular/ex-military. Only very recently have they taken CTC only cadets mainly due to tight timescales.
The recruitment process is now open to anyone independent of background however for obvious reasons they are looking for 73 drivers first.
Couple this with the recently announced cadet scheme that the company wishes to set up and I think our CC has done a sterling job which other airlines should look towards and copy.
Good luck to those that apply, it's generally a happy place. The management are stuck in cost cut central at the minute but at least they can still see value when presented to them properly and the cadet scheme should be applauded.
The recruitment process is now open to anyone independent of background however for obvious reasons they are looking for 73 drivers first.
Couple this with the recently announced cadet scheme that the company wishes to set up and I think our CC has done a sterling job which other airlines should look towards and copy.
Good luck to those that apply, it's generally a happy place. The management are stuck in cost cut central at the minute but at least they can still see value when presented to them properly and the cadet scheme should be applauded.
Last edited by DooblerChina; 9th Sep 2012 at 00:20.
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Apologies for the inaccuracies in my earlier post, just to clarify I absolutely agree that the Thomsom CC have done some fantastic work and serious kudos to them for their efforts and I would love to see other airlines following suit as this would be a very dangerous precedent for the integrated schools. My only misgiving was in how much influence the CC will have on which cadet applicants are actually accepted.
On a different tack, is this the result of ex modular trained Captains now reaching senior positions where they might be able to influence recruitment strategy and tear off the integrated blinkers? I for one certainly hope so, not that I expect special treatment for modular trainees but just getting the same treatment would be a positive move.
Well done Thomson CC, hopefully others are watching closely.
On a different tack, is this the result of ex modular trained Captains now reaching senior positions where they might be able to influence recruitment strategy and tear off the integrated blinkers? I for one certainly hope so, not that I expect special treatment for modular trainees but just getting the same treatment would be a positive move.
Well done Thomson CC, hopefully others are watching closely.
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JSLAY
The recruitment is for regional bases. From memory Doncaster Newcastle and Exeter featured, can't remember where else, but LGW is over crewed and isn't on offer.
The recruitment is for regional bases. From memory Doncaster Newcastle and Exeter featured, can't remember where else, but LGW is over crewed and isn't on offer.
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Matey
Yes, you are right, there is an emplyment law thing that requires a break in employment, 7 days if memory serves so no biggie. Also correct in the concept of a cadet's performance could cut both ways! THanks also for the sales pitch!! (Is that you RS, MAN, Matey!!)
Guy
That's precisely the point. I am reasonably certain the plan is to recruit from a wide spectrum of experience so although the current run is for NG as preference although accepting applications 737 in general, that is not a bottomless pool so at some stage it will have to open up. As stated, this time it is limited due training load elsewhere - somehow methinks Matey and I and our colleagues on the 737 training dept are going to be busy!!
Doobler
Yes, you're right, see above
All, thanks for the kind words on what the CC and company have put together.
Also, I've had some PMs from guys and rather than answer each personally (time!!) here are the answwrs to your FAQs:
Sorry, I don't know who to send CVs to. Think about it - the current selection is via a web page, I strongly suspect future will be the same.
When? I've no idea. I understand there has been a huge response of qualified talent so honestly? unlikely that the 25-30 places won't be filled. Watch the adverts in Flight and on the basis it was about 4 nanoseconds between company email and launch here, here might be good too!
Who? See last 3 pages of posts.
Recruitment process? Don't know but does involve line pilots. I personally think that publishing the process createsan uneven playing field but also shows the diligence in researching as much as possible. Happily I don't know so don't have to sweat it on the ethics! If you are the right guy, you'll get through. For those new to the game, I would suggest being yourself because if HR are involved, and they will be, they can spot a bluffer at 3000 yards! If it was me, I'd look for the chap I could happily sit next to for hours confident that if it went bang, I wouldn't be down to single crew ops. I'd also want to be comfy sat down the back with Mrs Yeoman + brats if s/he were driving.
Yes, you are right, there is an emplyment law thing that requires a break in employment, 7 days if memory serves so no biggie. Also correct in the concept of a cadet's performance could cut both ways! THanks also for the sales pitch!! (Is that you RS, MAN, Matey!!)
Guy
That's precisely the point. I am reasonably certain the plan is to recruit from a wide spectrum of experience so although the current run is for NG as preference although accepting applications 737 in general, that is not a bottomless pool so at some stage it will have to open up. As stated, this time it is limited due training load elsewhere - somehow methinks Matey and I and our colleagues on the 737 training dept are going to be busy!!
Doobler
Yes, you're right, see above
All, thanks for the kind words on what the CC and company have put together.
Also, I've had some PMs from guys and rather than answer each personally (time!!) here are the answwrs to your FAQs:
Sorry, I don't know who to send CVs to. Think about it - the current selection is via a web page, I strongly suspect future will be the same.
When? I've no idea. I understand there has been a huge response of qualified talent so honestly? unlikely that the 25-30 places won't be filled. Watch the adverts in Flight and on the basis it was about 4 nanoseconds between company email and launch here, here might be good too!
Who? See last 3 pages of posts.
Recruitment process? Don't know but does involve line pilots. I personally think that publishing the process createsan uneven playing field but also shows the diligence in researching as much as possible. Happily I don't know so don't have to sweat it on the ethics! If you are the right guy, you'll get through. For those new to the game, I would suggest being yourself because if HR are involved, and they will be, they can spot a bluffer at 3000 yards! If it was me, I'd look for the chap I could happily sit next to for hours confident that if it went bang, I wouldn't be down to single crew ops. I'd also want to be comfy sat down the back with Mrs Yeoman + brats if s/he were driving.
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Great response Yeoman. However, if the company have been inundated with applications, it's very unlikely to open up to DE candidates. The bottomless pool may not exist but it's a lot deeper than you expected.