First Post.. Are there any jobs in this industry?
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First Post.. Are there any jobs in this industry?
Hi,
Im currently a teacher, and have been teaching for a while, and its not something I thoroughly enjoy. I have completed my PPL, and really enjoy flying. So, I thought, why not complete my full training? I have been doing quite a lot of reading but, Im still learning! Ive always liked the idea of being a pilot, but never had the funds to start flying anything until now.
Im considering, completing my full training course (part-time), whilst still at work, and this is obviously (as Im sure you all understand), very expensive. The reason I ask is that I dont know whether its worth me just putting the thousands into my mortgage! Although the thought of completing my flight training really excites me... and the thought of being a qualified pilot even more so... but are there any jobs? Would my fATPL just be sat there collecting dust at the end of it all?
I mean, I am an optimist, but I just want to make sure that its not just money down the drain!
Im currently a teacher, and have been teaching for a while, and its not something I thoroughly enjoy. I have completed my PPL, and really enjoy flying. So, I thought, why not complete my full training? I have been doing quite a lot of reading but, Im still learning! Ive always liked the idea of being a pilot, but never had the funds to start flying anything until now.
Im considering, completing my full training course (part-time), whilst still at work, and this is obviously (as Im sure you all understand), very expensive. The reason I ask is that I dont know whether its worth me just putting the thousands into my mortgage! Although the thought of completing my flight training really excites me... and the thought of being a qualified pilot even more so... but are there any jobs? Would my fATPL just be sat there collecting dust at the end of it all?
I mean, I am an optimist, but I just want to make sure that its not just money down the drain!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Are there any jobs?
Yes. However...
A couple of UK/Irish jet operators have fallen in love with the idea of (self sponsored) cadets at the expense of experienced turbo prop pilots. Will this change? I don't know. So, unless you're on a structured/link full time course, the chances of getting a jet job soon after finishing training appears to be slim.
Although, if you do the reading, even the guys who have done the full time stuff are struggling to get a job.
Every thing changes. If you're lucky enough to finish when there's a hiring boom happening, you could walk into a decent job. When will this happen? Who knows?
So, caveat emptor applies here. If you accept that you may need to move cities/countries/hemispheres for your career then by all means, start. You may need to chase down the first job in a distant place. You may need to settle with the turboprop world.
Will that give you the return on your investment? Only you can answer that.
Like the lottery, you do have to be in it to win it. However, the lottery doesn't demand such an investment. Like the lottery, you may never win....
Good luck.
Speak to GAPAN et al for independent pilot testing.
Yes. However...
A couple of UK/Irish jet operators have fallen in love with the idea of (self sponsored) cadets at the expense of experienced turbo prop pilots. Will this change? I don't know. So, unless you're on a structured/link full time course, the chances of getting a jet job soon after finishing training appears to be slim.
Although, if you do the reading, even the guys who have done the full time stuff are struggling to get a job.
Every thing changes. If you're lucky enough to finish when there's a hiring boom happening, you could walk into a decent job. When will this happen? Who knows?
So, caveat emptor applies here. If you accept that you may need to move cities/countries/hemispheres for your career then by all means, start. You may need to chase down the first job in a distant place. You may need to settle with the turboprop world.
Will that give you the return on your investment? Only you can answer that.
Like the lottery, you do have to be in it to win it. However, the lottery doesn't demand such an investment. Like the lottery, you may never win....
Good luck.
Speak to GAPAN et al for independent pilot testing.
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The short answer is no, there are no jobs. I don't mean that there are badly paid, starter jobs. I don't mean you'll have to work your way up. I mean there are _no_ jobs.
If you wanted to instruct professionally and were prepared for the poor pay, you might see a way in. I'd love to instruct myself and plan to do so, but in the longer term I'd like to fly jets. At the moment, and hopefully this will change, the traditional route of working your way up through instructing seems extremely difficult. Experience gained in this way does not seem of value to people hiring for jet jobs, and even turboprop hours don't seem to be cutting the mustard as far as I can tell when it comes to experienced guys trying to get their first jet job with an airline. If you were going to go into instructing, you'd have to do so because you genuinely believed you'd find it rewarding and fun, and not because you see it as a way to get a jet job. The same applies at present to flying turboprops - if you were to get a job doing that, even though it may pay enough to live just about, you must see it not as a route into a jet job but rather as something you want to be doing and would be happy in.
To qualify the statement that there are _no_ jobs, perhaps, if you want a jet job straight away after training it may be possible to get in with Ryanair, however it costs about £30k to get in (self paid type rating), and it's not a job in the traditional sense - you become a self employed contractor, with no job security whatsoever. It does however pay OK once you're past the first year and it gets you lots of jet hours in a safely run, professional outfit that seems well placed to weather the trying times we find ourselves in economically.
If you really want to fly for a living, it's quite likely you'll ignore everyone who tells you how difficult it is to find employment and push ahead anyway. As another poster said - you have to be in it to win it.
If you have aspirations to earn a living that will actually let you put food on the table in aviation, at present you'd be considerably better off if you did a course with one of the organisations who, although expensive, have contacts that let them place newly qualified pilots with airlines. Even so, the terms, conditions and pay are poor at first, but at least those guys stand a good chance of being on an acceptable contract with at least fair pay within a few years. If you're going to go full time at it, it's well worth considering them, look for example at CTC, FTE and Oxford aviation. There are no guarantees of a job however even with these organisations, and I would take their statistics of pilots placed with a very large pinch of salt, however they do offer a chance for your £90,000 that doesn't seem to be there otherwise. Remember to add another £30,000 on top of that for a type rating.
It was not nearly so bad 4 or 5 years ago, there was a period of time when the airlines were hiring inexperienced guys, sometimes on proper contracts. Aviation recruiting is highly cyclical, and we can only hope the tide will turn again soon.
It's very difficult to give any form of advice save to say that you should read and learn as much as you possibly can before you commit yourself to anything. Please do not disregard the posts of naysayers here, there are some bitter individuals and there are some you should disregard, but please don't construe that to mean that their tales of woe are not commonplace, or that things are better than they seem - they are not, aviation is not and never has been (as far as I can tell) a stable career.
If you wanted to instruct professionally and were prepared for the poor pay, you might see a way in. I'd love to instruct myself and plan to do so, but in the longer term I'd like to fly jets. At the moment, and hopefully this will change, the traditional route of working your way up through instructing seems extremely difficult. Experience gained in this way does not seem of value to people hiring for jet jobs, and even turboprop hours don't seem to be cutting the mustard as far as I can tell when it comes to experienced guys trying to get their first jet job with an airline. If you were going to go into instructing, you'd have to do so because you genuinely believed you'd find it rewarding and fun, and not because you see it as a way to get a jet job. The same applies at present to flying turboprops - if you were to get a job doing that, even though it may pay enough to live just about, you must see it not as a route into a jet job but rather as something you want to be doing and would be happy in.
To qualify the statement that there are _no_ jobs, perhaps, if you want a jet job straight away after training it may be possible to get in with Ryanair, however it costs about £30k to get in (self paid type rating), and it's not a job in the traditional sense - you become a self employed contractor, with no job security whatsoever. It does however pay OK once you're past the first year and it gets you lots of jet hours in a safely run, professional outfit that seems well placed to weather the trying times we find ourselves in economically.
If you really want to fly for a living, it's quite likely you'll ignore everyone who tells you how difficult it is to find employment and push ahead anyway. As another poster said - you have to be in it to win it.
If you have aspirations to earn a living that will actually let you put food on the table in aviation, at present you'd be considerably better off if you did a course with one of the organisations who, although expensive, have contacts that let them place newly qualified pilots with airlines. Even so, the terms, conditions and pay are poor at first, but at least those guys stand a good chance of being on an acceptable contract with at least fair pay within a few years. If you're going to go full time at it, it's well worth considering them, look for example at CTC, FTE and Oxford aviation. There are no guarantees of a job however even with these organisations, and I would take their statistics of pilots placed with a very large pinch of salt, however they do offer a chance for your £90,000 that doesn't seem to be there otherwise. Remember to add another £30,000 on top of that for a type rating.
It was not nearly so bad 4 or 5 years ago, there was a period of time when the airlines were hiring inexperienced guys, sometimes on proper contracts. Aviation recruiting is highly cyclical, and we can only hope the tide will turn again soon.
It's very difficult to give any form of advice save to say that you should read and learn as much as you possibly can before you commit yourself to anything. Please do not disregard the posts of naysayers here, there are some bitter individuals and there are some you should disregard, but please don't construe that to mean that their tales of woe are not commonplace, or that things are better than they seem - they are not, aviation is not and never has been (as far as I can tell) a stable career.
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Love you - just kidding
Its really quite bad these days and there are almost no jobs for anyone without experience or insane amounts of money, risk willingnes and some stupidity.
But if you start training now I bet there will be plenty of jobs in 2 years time when you finish training. Airlines will be begging to hire you
(Sarkasm included)
I really dont see things getting any better in a forseeable future, au contraire.
But if you start training now I bet there will be plenty of jobs in 2 years time when you finish training. Airlines will be begging to hire you
(Sarkasm included)
I really dont see things getting any better in a forseeable future, au contraire.
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There are jobs but not exactly career jobs, there was one recently for a relatively experienced pilot flying a single engine aircraft. Seven days a week, seasonal, €300, that's Euro. Lots of applicants one job. 
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It all depends what you want out of life...
Hi Wilko,
The short answer is yes, there are jobs in the industry, BUT they are very few and far between and there are massive queues of newbies fighting each other for them. It is likely to stay this way for the forseeable future. Also beware that the odds of going straight into a turboprop or jet job are extremely slim. Even flight instructor jobs are a rarity and poorly paid.
However, to truly answer your question about whether it is worth doing, you need to decide what sort of person you are and what you want out of flying. If you enjoy flying then doing it for fun is always an option. You don't have to go commercial to enjoy hiring a plane at your local airfield and spending your weekends pottering around the skies and mingling with other pilots.
There are two types of (potential) pilot I have come across: The kind that has flying in their blood and is prepared to commit their life to pursuing it. Working their way up over many years from the very bottom, relocating when necessary and having no other comittments, mortages, families, partners etc because ulitimately all they want out of life is to fly at whatever cost. These people have all the time and money to spend pursuing it and may eventually get to the top. Ulitimately they have the flexibilty to take any oportunity whenever it arises, regardless of how far away it is or how poorly it is paid.
Then there's the other type: the ones that would like a 'normal' life, settle down, stable job and income, family etc The one's that don't have unlimited time and money to spend chasing a dream, that can't just up and relocate at a moment's notice. Those that don't have as much flexibility, and can't afford to live on peanuts whilst 'gaining experience'.
Pursuing a career in aviation is a life comittment. To get anywhere you have to be able to up and leave at the drop of a coin. You have to have access to large somes of money or loans. You will pay for you licence, your medicals, your rating renewals, your type ratings, maybe even your line training. These costs will continue year in, year out. It's a bottomless pit where money is concerned so you need to have a seriously good financial plan AND a backup should it all go awry. The process will also put a strain on any relationship you might be in (flying and personal life really don't mix very well). Ideally you need to keep a job going in the background whilst you're training and gaining experience.
If you're lucky and meet the right people you could slip into a sensible job fairly early on. Or you can end up with a dusty old licence, no job and no money. Remeber, we (and most of Europe) are in a recession and things aren't likeyly to pick up for some time. Jobs (of any kind) are hard to come by. If you have a job you are lucky.
I finished my fATPL nearly two years ago, since then I have been unable to secure a single full time job of any kind, flying or otherwise despite my efforts. Fortunately my wife can keep a roof over our head for the time being. But the point is, I'm £90k out of pocket and without an imcome I can't afford to renew my ratings. As a consequence my licence ratings and medical have lapsed. I can't afford to hire a small plane from my local club just to keep in practice. The result is I am not in a position to apply for flying jobs in any case now. I am now retraining with the Open University in an engineering related subject because that is still a growing industry and offers a better chance of employment. I'm not afraid to admit that I am giving up on flying now because at 33 years old, I really want to be settled with a house and family. Chasing flying is not going to bring me closer to that.
My circumstances are my own but it's just an example of what can happen. It doesn't happen to everyone but it has happened to several people I trained with. Like I said at the beginning it depends what you want out of life and how much time, money and efford you can afford to put into it. Commercial availation is a hostile, unforgiving and expensive lottery. There are other careers that offer better chances of employment and security - but you won't have an office at 30,000ft.
The short answer is yes, there are jobs in the industry, BUT they are very few and far between and there are massive queues of newbies fighting each other for them. It is likely to stay this way for the forseeable future. Also beware that the odds of going straight into a turboprop or jet job are extremely slim. Even flight instructor jobs are a rarity and poorly paid.
However, to truly answer your question about whether it is worth doing, you need to decide what sort of person you are and what you want out of flying. If you enjoy flying then doing it for fun is always an option. You don't have to go commercial to enjoy hiring a plane at your local airfield and spending your weekends pottering around the skies and mingling with other pilots.
There are two types of (potential) pilot I have come across: The kind that has flying in their blood and is prepared to commit their life to pursuing it. Working their way up over many years from the very bottom, relocating when necessary and having no other comittments, mortages, families, partners etc because ulitimately all they want out of life is to fly at whatever cost. These people have all the time and money to spend pursuing it and may eventually get to the top. Ulitimately they have the flexibilty to take any oportunity whenever it arises, regardless of how far away it is or how poorly it is paid.
Then there's the other type: the ones that would like a 'normal' life, settle down, stable job and income, family etc The one's that don't have unlimited time and money to spend chasing a dream, that can't just up and relocate at a moment's notice. Those that don't have as much flexibility, and can't afford to live on peanuts whilst 'gaining experience'.
Pursuing a career in aviation is a life comittment. To get anywhere you have to be able to up and leave at the drop of a coin. You have to have access to large somes of money or loans. You will pay for you licence, your medicals, your rating renewals, your type ratings, maybe even your line training. These costs will continue year in, year out. It's a bottomless pit where money is concerned so you need to have a seriously good financial plan AND a backup should it all go awry. The process will also put a strain on any relationship you might be in (flying and personal life really don't mix very well). Ideally you need to keep a job going in the background whilst you're training and gaining experience.
If you're lucky and meet the right people you could slip into a sensible job fairly early on. Or you can end up with a dusty old licence, no job and no money. Remeber, we (and most of Europe) are in a recession and things aren't likeyly to pick up for some time. Jobs (of any kind) are hard to come by. If you have a job you are lucky.
I finished my fATPL nearly two years ago, since then I have been unable to secure a single full time job of any kind, flying or otherwise despite my efforts. Fortunately my wife can keep a roof over our head for the time being. But the point is, I'm £90k out of pocket and without an imcome I can't afford to renew my ratings. As a consequence my licence ratings and medical have lapsed. I can't afford to hire a small plane from my local club just to keep in practice. The result is I am not in a position to apply for flying jobs in any case now. I am now retraining with the Open University in an engineering related subject because that is still a growing industry and offers a better chance of employment. I'm not afraid to admit that I am giving up on flying now because at 33 years old, I really want to be settled with a house and family. Chasing flying is not going to bring me closer to that.
My circumstances are my own but it's just an example of what can happen. It doesn't happen to everyone but it has happened to several people I trained with. Like I said at the beginning it depends what you want out of life and how much time, money and efford you can afford to put into it. Commercial availation is a hostile, unforgiving and expensive lottery. There are other careers that offer better chances of employment and security - but you won't have an office at 30,000ft.
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Okay thankyou very much for the replies. Ive read them all!
So, overall, what you're saying is that the airline industry changes all the time, so 4 to 5 years ago, there were jobs, now there arent many. Then in another 4 to 5 years there could be some jobs, or it could be worse. Its permenantly up and down?
Im currently teaching, and its not something that my heart is really in, the thought of flying for a good living really excites me. I plan on taking my time though, and not rushing any of it as Im working and already have some income coming in.
A very very rough idea I have is to get my Maths and Physics A Levels (should be at good grades when I put my mind to it), complete my CTC Cadets course, which should take me through my ATPL Exams, and maybe complete an Aviation Degree, while still building my hours up on my flying licence. My hope would be that Im doing everything I can to stand out from the crowd?
Any further replies will be greatly welcomed!
So, overall, what you're saying is that the airline industry changes all the time, so 4 to 5 years ago, there were jobs, now there arent many. Then in another 4 to 5 years there could be some jobs, or it could be worse. Its permenantly up and down?
Im currently teaching, and its not something that my heart is really in, the thought of flying for a good living really excites me. I plan on taking my time though, and not rushing any of it as Im working and already have some income coming in.
A very very rough idea I have is to get my Maths and Physics A Levels (should be at good grades when I put my mind to it), complete my CTC Cadets course, which should take me through my ATPL Exams, and maybe complete an Aviation Degree, while still building my hours up on my flying licence. My hope would be that Im doing everything I can to stand out from the crowd?
Any further replies will be greatly welcomed!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
The industry is cyclical. It follows a rough 7-10 year pattern and follows very closely the economic one. When it goes up, the window of opportunity for low houred pilots is small, often maybe 2 years during the "peak".
If you are not ready armed with a current IR, then it's very difficult for a low houred pilot (who isn't on a tagged full time scheme) to get a decent well paying first job. The more you spend on your CPL/IR, the more money you'll need to earn to pay "yourself" (or the bank) back. This can actually reduce your flexibility when looking for work.
Nothing is impossible, just don't believe the hype from the slick salesmen. You'll hear and read about X thousand of pilots required. And in the small print they might say "world wide". However, if you look deeper into the numbers, you're probably only looking at maybe 500-2000 pilots a year worldwide. Do the maths...
However, firstly, can you pass the class 1 medical?
If you are not ready armed with a current IR, then it's very difficult for a low houred pilot (who isn't on a tagged full time scheme) to get a decent well paying first job. The more you spend on your CPL/IR, the more money you'll need to earn to pay "yourself" (or the bank) back. This can actually reduce your flexibility when looking for work.
Nothing is impossible, just don't believe the hype from the slick salesmen. You'll hear and read about X thousand of pilots required. And in the small print they might say "world wide". However, if you look deeper into the numbers, you're probably only looking at maybe 500-2000 pilots a year worldwide. Do the maths...
However, firstly, can you pass the class 1 medical?
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Hey guys,
I don't normally hang out in this part of the forum but thought I'd stop by my old hunting ground and see what was going on.
Firstly I'm an experienced pilot now with several thousands of hours and work as a Captain on a jet type. But I have been very fortunate and a lot of what has been said here is so true. In my 11 years or so in the industry it has changed massively. The uptake of Cadet pilots (as if putting the word Cadet in front of Pilot makes them less valuable?) and the major economic problems that have been faced world wide have changed the landscape forever.
ReadyForDeparture says it so beautifully. I am the type with flying in my blood. I grew up wanting to do nothing but fly. But, I had no bottomless pit of money and in fact could only afford the CPL ME IR (on finance). I couldn't stretch to an instructor rating and certainly any type rating was way out of my league. So how did I get in. I started at the very very bottom of the pile, finding a job on a piston twin, effectively flying as safety pilot, on the other side of the world, working for NO money. I was supported by some money from family and doing odd jobs for cash (some labouring work, factory work and cleaning aircraft). I worked my nuts off and the company gave me a Captain position on their twins. This was a freight operation, loading all the freight myself, unloading all the freight myself, de-icing myself and at times sleeping in the aircraft on the hard metal floor.
After around a year in that job, I lost it. Mainly due to the downturn after 9/11, but that doesn't matter, I lost it. A year and a half of mundane and boring factory work from 9 - 5 and I was even more certain that flying HAD to happen. After thousands of CV's sent everywhere in the world (and I literally mean every single aircraft operator in the world... the data is there if you know where to get it) and I got an offer, not so far from home. Boom... I was in. Still piston twins but I was now getting more money, doing 900 hours a year and getting some (almost valuable) experience and fast.
A few years later, I wanted more, I put out again many thousand CV's, this time only to turbine aircraft operators and boom... I got a bite, it took 6 months but I got it, again, closeish to home. Got a free jet type rating and that job took me from JFO to Captain in under 2.5 years and gave me 2 FREE type ratings. 4 years from start, Recession... job gone, out went the CV.
6 months of negotiations while I was losing my job and I was off to a far flung corner of the world, back as FO, but I was flying and on decent money. 1 year later, the recession bites again and I'm on my way back home for yet another job. This time I used my now extensive network, made hundreds of hours of phone calls, hassled enough people and got the job I wanted, now on my latest type but back to Captain. That's where I am now.
I have moved to any part of the world at the drop of a hat. I am ready to move anywhere at the drop of a hat, and for anyone that says there are NO jobs out there unless you have tons of cash or you stand out with thousands of hours, here's the truth....
There are tens of thousands of pilots flying every single day. There are jobs. They may be hard to get and they may mean making some difficult decisions and life changing risks, but that's why successful pilots are exceptional people. Yep, it's in my blood and I will do this as long as they give me my medical. Yep, I am insured very heavily against redundancy and against loss of medical. But what's else is I am willing to go to Thailand, China, Dubai, Oman, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, USA, Brazil for the right opportunity. My limit is my personal safety. My life is more valuable than flying, but remember, flying is my life.
[a note before the sad pilot bashing starts... nope, I have a life. In fact I socialize ONLY with NON-pilots, I have a 'relatively' normal personal life. I go out with normal people, I dine in normal places and I shop like a normal person. I do fitness training with weird fitness freaks and I like Thai Curry from my local pub. The fact I love my profession and strive to make it my professional life doesn't mean I can't have a normalish social and personal life, roster dependant of course]
There are low hourd pilots getting work, I know some of them. With my network I get quite a few calls from guys wanting to find out where the work is but so often they say things like "oh, I don't want to go to the Phillipines" or "my girlfriend says...". Great for you, so stay here.
And before you go on bashing me, or this story, I know times have changed and I know it's got a hell of a lot harder than it ever was for a newly minted licence holder, let me point this out to you... no matter how many hours you have or what qualifications you have, someone always has more hours than you, more experience in operating environments and regions, more rugged good looks, more money, more time and more women/men on their arm. No matter what your experience it is always a hard career. But when you get there, with the right decisions it pays VERY well. It's currently the 3rd highest paid profession in the UK, beaten only by Company Executives and Doctors (official figures, source... google it for yourself) with an average salary of £64,000 per year (ish), that takes into account low paid FO's and high paid TRE's, so it's a fair number.
With something being so lucrative, it's bound to be competitive, it's bound to be hard, and if you love it, it's always worth it. Not just because of the nice pay cheque but by far for the most amazing reason of all. IT IS FLYING!
My personal advice, take it or leave it. If it's ALL you want to do and you will sacrifice whatever you have now to get it, DO IT. If that statement doesn't fit, think very long and hard about the risk you're willing to take and if you'll be happy to try and potentially accept failure.
Final note: every single person I went through training with (that I maintained contact with) made it eventually. For some it took 5 years or more, but none regretted it.
I don't normally hang out in this part of the forum but thought I'd stop by my old hunting ground and see what was going on.
Firstly I'm an experienced pilot now with several thousands of hours and work as a Captain on a jet type. But I have been very fortunate and a lot of what has been said here is so true. In my 11 years or so in the industry it has changed massively. The uptake of Cadet pilots (as if putting the word Cadet in front of Pilot makes them less valuable?) and the major economic problems that have been faced world wide have changed the landscape forever.
ReadyForDeparture says it so beautifully. I am the type with flying in my blood. I grew up wanting to do nothing but fly. But, I had no bottomless pit of money and in fact could only afford the CPL ME IR (on finance). I couldn't stretch to an instructor rating and certainly any type rating was way out of my league. So how did I get in. I started at the very very bottom of the pile, finding a job on a piston twin, effectively flying as safety pilot, on the other side of the world, working for NO money. I was supported by some money from family and doing odd jobs for cash (some labouring work, factory work and cleaning aircraft). I worked my nuts off and the company gave me a Captain position on their twins. This was a freight operation, loading all the freight myself, unloading all the freight myself, de-icing myself and at times sleeping in the aircraft on the hard metal floor.
After around a year in that job, I lost it. Mainly due to the downturn after 9/11, but that doesn't matter, I lost it. A year and a half of mundane and boring factory work from 9 - 5 and I was even more certain that flying HAD to happen. After thousands of CV's sent everywhere in the world (and I literally mean every single aircraft operator in the world... the data is there if you know where to get it) and I got an offer, not so far from home. Boom... I was in. Still piston twins but I was now getting more money, doing 900 hours a year and getting some (almost valuable) experience and fast.
A few years later, I wanted more, I put out again many thousand CV's, this time only to turbine aircraft operators and boom... I got a bite, it took 6 months but I got it, again, closeish to home. Got a free jet type rating and that job took me from JFO to Captain in under 2.5 years and gave me 2 FREE type ratings. 4 years from start, Recession... job gone, out went the CV.
6 months of negotiations while I was losing my job and I was off to a far flung corner of the world, back as FO, but I was flying and on decent money. 1 year later, the recession bites again and I'm on my way back home for yet another job. This time I used my now extensive network, made hundreds of hours of phone calls, hassled enough people and got the job I wanted, now on my latest type but back to Captain. That's where I am now.
I have moved to any part of the world at the drop of a hat. I am ready to move anywhere at the drop of a hat, and for anyone that says there are NO jobs out there unless you have tons of cash or you stand out with thousands of hours, here's the truth....
There are tens of thousands of pilots flying every single day. There are jobs. They may be hard to get and they may mean making some difficult decisions and life changing risks, but that's why successful pilots are exceptional people. Yep, it's in my blood and I will do this as long as they give me my medical. Yep, I am insured very heavily against redundancy and against loss of medical. But what's else is I am willing to go to Thailand, China, Dubai, Oman, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, USA, Brazil for the right opportunity. My limit is my personal safety. My life is more valuable than flying, but remember, flying is my life.
[a note before the sad pilot bashing starts... nope, I have a life. In fact I socialize ONLY with NON-pilots, I have a 'relatively' normal personal life. I go out with normal people, I dine in normal places and I shop like a normal person. I do fitness training with weird fitness freaks and I like Thai Curry from my local pub. The fact I love my profession and strive to make it my professional life doesn't mean I can't have a normalish social and personal life, roster dependant of course]
There are low hourd pilots getting work, I know some of them. With my network I get quite a few calls from guys wanting to find out where the work is but so often they say things like "oh, I don't want to go to the Phillipines" or "my girlfriend says...". Great for you, so stay here.
And before you go on bashing me, or this story, I know times have changed and I know it's got a hell of a lot harder than it ever was for a newly minted licence holder, let me point this out to you... no matter how many hours you have or what qualifications you have, someone always has more hours than you, more experience in operating environments and regions, more rugged good looks, more money, more time and more women/men on their arm. No matter what your experience it is always a hard career. But when you get there, with the right decisions it pays VERY well. It's currently the 3rd highest paid profession in the UK, beaten only by Company Executives and Doctors (official figures, source... google it for yourself) with an average salary of £64,000 per year (ish), that takes into account low paid FO's and high paid TRE's, so it's a fair number.
With something being so lucrative, it's bound to be competitive, it's bound to be hard, and if you love it, it's always worth it. Not just because of the nice pay cheque but by far for the most amazing reason of all. IT IS FLYING!
My personal advice, take it or leave it. If it's ALL you want to do and you will sacrifice whatever you have now to get it, DO IT. If that statement doesn't fit, think very long and hard about the risk you're willing to take and if you'll be happy to try and potentially accept failure.
Final note: every single person I went through training with (that I maintained contact with) made it eventually. For some it took 5 years or more, but none regretted it.
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Two excellent posts by potatowings and readyfordeparture. They sum up the situation perfectly and I recommend you have a good think about what they say!
Unless you're a multi millionaire it's a massive gamble. If
the gamble pays off then you will be vindicated in your decision. But remember, this is a very difficult industry and unless you end up in a legacy carrier, there will no doubt come a time in your career when you may need to turn your life upside and go to where the work is! It's all about personal circumstances!
Good luck.
Unless you're a multi millionaire it's a massive gamble. If
the gamble pays off then you will be vindicated in your decision. But remember, this is a very difficult industry and unless you end up in a legacy carrier, there will no doubt come a time in your career when you may need to turn your life upside and go to where the work is! It's all about personal circumstances!
Good luck.
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I am not going to write my life career history here but I am truly amazed at the utter refusal by " wannabees" to see reality here.
This career is now so stupid you really would need to see a psychiatrist if you were seriously considering it!
Spend massive amounts of money to join a holding pool of thousands for one chance in a thousand for a job that pays less than a paperound!
Really good, intelligent thinking that is?
Please guys. See the world for what it is. Stop dreaming, imaginging that it will all be different for you. I have seen too many shattered lives.
When and if things get better, a lot better, then maybe give it at shot. But now? You must have eggs in your head or worse!
This career is now so stupid you really would need to see a psychiatrist if you were seriously considering it!
Spend massive amounts of money to join a holding pool of thousands for one chance in a thousand for a job that pays less than a paperound!
Really good, intelligent thinking that is?
Please guys. See the world for what it is. Stop dreaming, imaginging that it will all be different for you. I have seen too many shattered lives.
When and if things get better, a lot better, then maybe give it at shot. But now? You must have eggs in your head or worse!
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First of all, PotatoWings your post was very inspirational and it makes me feel a bit more sane about my current lifestyle. Initially, I thought it was crazy coming out to South-East Asia to fly right hand seat on a single engine turbine aircraft, but after 10 months and 700 hours later, I am just about to move over to the left-hand seat. Although I have been paid very little acting as FO on a single-pilot aircraft, the experience I have gained from it has been invaluable and it makes me glad that my first job wasn't RH seat of a 737 for example. This job allows me to have at least 16 to 20 weeks off per year (depending on time with the company), and has allowed me to visit many places over Asia that my friends at home could only dream of.
Another thing this experience has made me realise is that there is no need to rush into flying the Big Jets providing you have that true passion for aviation. The longest sectors we fly in our operation are about 2 hours, and many people in the company complain how boring the cruise can be. But, these are the same people that are in such a rush to get into First and Second Office jobs within the airlines, where they will of course, spend a lot more than 90 minutes in the cruise !
For me, the first move away from home was the most difficult, but now I feel I am free to move anywhere in the world to reach the top of the aviation game; gradually moving on to bigger aircraft and different environments when I feel there is nothing else to be learned in any job. This ethos can't work for everyone, especially those with family commitments. However, I have seen many 30-50 year old's (with families) throughout my training, successfully complete flight training and get employed with minimum experience. These guys I found inspirational and are proof that nothing is impossible if you want it enough.
For me, I am glad that I was in the right place at the right time and I couldn't be happier with my life right now but at the same time I know things could change any minute. However, its is not the same for everyone, friends I have back in the UK are not necessarily happy with their self-sponsored Jet Jobs and at the same time, some of my colleagues aren't happy doing the same job as I love.
Finally, just do as much research as possible before you spend any money, talking to people with and without employment so you get both perspectives. Finally, look out for the flight schools, many of them are just out to exploit people with a dream. !
Another thing this experience has made me realise is that there is no need to rush into flying the Big Jets providing you have that true passion for aviation. The longest sectors we fly in our operation are about 2 hours, and many people in the company complain how boring the cruise can be. But, these are the same people that are in such a rush to get into First and Second Office jobs within the airlines, where they will of course, spend a lot more than 90 minutes in the cruise !
For me, the first move away from home was the most difficult, but now I feel I am free to move anywhere in the world to reach the top of the aviation game; gradually moving on to bigger aircraft and different environments when I feel there is nothing else to be learned in any job. This ethos can't work for everyone, especially those with family commitments. However, I have seen many 30-50 year old's (with families) throughout my training, successfully complete flight training and get employed with minimum experience. These guys I found inspirational and are proof that nothing is impossible if you want it enough.
For me, I am glad that I was in the right place at the right time and I couldn't be happier with my life right now but at the same time I know things could change any minute. However, its is not the same for everyone, friends I have back in the UK are not necessarily happy with their self-sponsored Jet Jobs and at the same time, some of my colleagues aren't happy doing the same job as I love.
Finally, just do as much research as possible before you spend any money, talking to people with and without employment so you get both perspectives. Finally, look out for the flight schools, many of them are just out to exploit people with a dream. !
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yes
Yes there are jobs, you just have to know where to look, have a good network and luck plays a part too. I've had friends who left flying school straight into an airline job without having to pay for any ratings.
As for leaving your job, I'd advise you keep your options open and do flying on the side, nothing is as frustrating as looking for a flying job when you have no steady stream of income.
One thing I've learnt about flying since the flying school days is that patience is a virtue, always required, tenacity too and having a thick skin will get you far in this industry.
All the best!
As for leaving your job, I'd advise you keep your options open and do flying on the side, nothing is as frustrating as looking for a flying job when you have no steady stream of income.
One thing I've learnt about flying since the flying school days is that patience is a virtue, always required, tenacity too and having a thick skin will get you far in this industry.
All the best!
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@Kelly Hopper, this career is stupid? How so? Please enlighten us rather than ranting non-sensical jibberish.
We're having a discussion here. I put my reasoned logical view forward with a well structured prose. An introduction to me and my circumstances, a middle and a conclusion.
Try that and we may listen, but if you are going to say anything like
qualify it. Yep I earn't less than a paper round in my first year or so of flying, but now I earn more than most lawyers and in fact more than most doctors. Hardly a paper round is it?
As for holding pools of thousands... what century are you in. Who keep holding pools these days? Recruit on demand is the way today.
willisstorm4 - Well done indeed! I like your style. If its the caravan you're on, good work. Great piece of kit you've got yourself there. Enjoy your flying now. It's the best it'll ever be. I love flying jets, it's comfortable and very civilized but I always look back to my earlier days with fond memories. You'll learn so much and in a few years you'll have some great stories. Keep it up. I love to hear these stories from people with flying in their blood.
We're having a discussion here. I put my reasoned logical view forward with a well structured prose. An introduction to me and my circumstances, a middle and a conclusion.
Try that and we may listen, but if you are going to say anything like
Spend massive amounts of money to join a holding pool of thousands for one chance in a thousand for a job that pays less than a paper round!
As for holding pools of thousands... what century are you in. Who keep holding pools these days? Recruit on demand is the way today.
willisstorm4 - Well done indeed! I like your style. If its the caravan you're on, good work. Great piece of kit you've got yourself there. Enjoy your flying now. It's the best it'll ever be. I love flying jets, it's comfortable and very civilized but I always look back to my earlier days with fond memories. You'll learn so much and in a few years you'll have some great stories. Keep it up. I love to hear these stories from people with flying in their blood.
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To the OP - potatowings has hit the nail on the head in many ways. To some extent, his sage advice makes me wish I had been a little more optimistic in what I posted. I still stand by it in many ways - the view from the perspective of an inexperienced guy looking for a job is not rosy, but he managed to put a positive frame on it without any bull****, so don't stop being an optimist.
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@Kelly Hopper,
Thanks, just checked the meaning on euphemism and it's exactly the same as last time I checked. Now what's your point? Still trying to string together an argument with reason and logic rather than rhetoric and euphemism?
Just so you don't have to look it up and to avoid confusion with the varied definitions...
Rhetoric (noun) - (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
That is all
Thanks, just checked the meaning on euphemism and it's exactly the same as last time I checked. Now what's your point? Still trying to string together an argument with reason and logic rather than rhetoric and euphemism?
Just so you don't have to look it up and to avoid confusion with the varied definitions...
Rhetoric (noun) - (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
That is all
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Thankyou so much for all the interesting posts.
Okay, so I dont know whether to look at cracking on with it, or to wait until things pick up. Basically, the general census is that there is work out there, not much, but it takes a lot of work and determination to get there.
I still want my steady income coming in while I train though, as I dont want to leave my job and put all of my eggs in one risky basket just yet.
Ive heard that there are jobs overseas, over in USA? Is this true, are things better over there? Im still young, so moving away for a good few years shouldnt be a problem.
As you can see Im just trying to get a bit of background information before I think about going ahead with anything. There's no point training for something, no matter how passionate I am or how much I want to do it, if its just a dead-end.
Wilko
Okay, so I dont know whether to look at cracking on with it, or to wait until things pick up. Basically, the general census is that there is work out there, not much, but it takes a lot of work and determination to get there.
I still want my steady income coming in while I train though, as I dont want to leave my job and put all of my eggs in one risky basket just yet.
Ive heard that there are jobs overseas, over in USA? Is this true, are things better over there? Im still young, so moving away for a good few years shouldnt be a problem.
As you can see Im just trying to get a bit of background information before I think about going ahead with anything. There's no point training for something, no matter how passionate I am or how much I want to do it, if its just a dead-end.
Wilko
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Don't mean to bring down the mood. I don't know for a fact but I would imagine it would be near-impossible to get a green card for the US with 250 hours considering how many unemployed US pilots there are
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The overseas jobs are most likely to be out East, but they're largely for experienced pilots. Both the Middle and Far East have a demand, but not for low houred, recently qualified pilots.
As far as the US goes, pretty sure you would to have to marry a US citizen or get a company to sponsor you (no one does this for pilots) a Green card. Then also think about how your training would have to be FAA rather than JAA/EASA, which would seem difficult if you want to carry on teaching in the UK whilst training.
As far as the US goes, pretty sure you would to have to marry a US citizen or get a company to sponsor you (no one does this for pilots) a Green card. Then also think about how your training would have to be FAA rather than JAA/EASA, which would seem difficult if you want to carry on teaching in the UK whilst training.