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Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)

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Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)

Old 21st Jan 2012, 11:42
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Bravo, kolob666. If only the rest of the world could see it like that!
WX Man is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2012, 11:42
  #102 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
It seems that 90% of the "starter" jet jobs these days are going to guys fresh out of flying school. I don't know a single FR or EZ F/O now who joined from a background of instructing, aerial work, or bashing around Yurrup in a turboprop... and I can only think of one F/O in Jet2 who joined from that background in the last 2 years (and I do know quite a few in all of those companies).
It's possible that's because you never worked outside of your country.
Many airlines have a total time restriction, and even some countries like the US have a civil authority restriction concerning total time. In Canada 99% of the jet airliners newly hired F/O come from a multi piston/ turboprop background, could go on...

bashing around Yurrup in a turboprop
yes that's for sure not for everybody...

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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 14:27
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Yet another thing our cousins across the pond have got right, and we in Europe have got wrong!

Nice pic of a Kingair btw. Considerably smarter than the ones I fly
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 17:53
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Above & Beyond
Posts: 323
The EU market is different to the yanks. Their regional and private sector is bigger than ours hence why instructing and aerial work and corporate work is a realistic way of building hours before joining the airlines.

I was down the local flying school which 'used' to be busy but now its completely dead due to mainly financial reasons on the students behalf. So the instructors are left twiddling their thumbs, so really instructing isnt a great option. Aerial work hmmm how many of those do you know off the bat? Parachute jump trips? Well you need around 500-1000 TT and high PIC time which comes down to more money.

The cost to hire a C172 is about 148 per hour assuming you finish with 300 hours to add another 400 hours comes to 59200 excluding landing fees.
And at the end of this you will have 700TT around 300 pic time yet you meet non of the requirements to get a job on the jets and you dont meet the requirements even for Qatar SO position.

For 21,000 including Vat you will have a B737 SSTR add another 20,000 your on a Line training program + 1year employment by the end of this you will have close to or even more than 1500 TT & 500+ type.

You can see why its very attractive in these tough times. The problem is airlines having high requirements, which the insurance companies dont help and by having all the loco airlines having partnerships with CTC OAA taking on only those guys instead of the other modular guys who done the same training as they have.

CTC and OAA have paid their way in, its just sugar coated.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 18:31
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Middle England
Posts: 606
A new low......

Ladies and Gentlemen

We need a partner for a Captain on a course starting 13th Feb in London Heathrow.

The course is 4 weeks away so time is of the essence.

If you are thinking of doing a type rating and line training soon we are able to offer the line training at cost to fill this particular slot.

Type rating 15,000 + vat

Base Training 6000 no vat

300 hours 26,000
500 hours 36,000

The above prices for the line flying includes the OPC, ID, Uniform and all the local taxes in Turkey for 5 and 7 months respectively.


You will need to pay for your own accommodation and travel.

Only JAA licence pilots please.

The price of the line flying is only applicable for this course date.

Respond to:

Regards
763 jock is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2012, 22:47
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: at the end
Posts: 71
50,000 minimum for this ? Add travel, accommodation, food etc etc etc getting closer to 60,000

And its in Turkey - so expect long delays and little assistance. Atlas Air? Why not go direct to them and cut out these despicable middle men.

Who is peddling this scheme then?

Reading above, seems like its time for HMRC to investigate perhaps...
favete linguis is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2012, 23:56
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 611
I'd much rather do my training and then try to get a job doing anything at a relatively small airline and try to get my name around, make contacts and hopefully get a job with said airline as a pilot. The money would be better than instructing and I can use that extra cash to keep current. From what I've seen, some smaller airlines like to hire from within. That's not to say it's easy to get a job with an airline, it's probably easier than getting a job as a pilot though.

Sure you don't build as many hours, but as punk666 said, instructing isn't a great option. That's not to say it's a bad option either, but you need the rating then you're back at square 1 looking for a job.

That's what I'm likely to do anyway.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 05:07
  #108 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
Punk666:
The EU market is different to the yanks. Their regional and private sector is bigger than ours hence why instructing and aerial work and corporate work is a realistic way of building hours before joining the airlines.
There are thousands and thousands of pilots flying for the regionals, corporate, or instructing in Europe, the airlines should hire among this pool ONLY like in north america. Let's first hire those thousands and thousands of pilots, then when the airlines will be short of experienced candidates we'll talk again.



You can see why its very attractive in these tough times.
Thing is that the discussion has never been on the fact Pay to Work is attractive or not.

Do you ask somebody who takes cocaine if the problem is attractiveness? Of course not. Problem is self respect, health and money.

Problem for Pay to Fly is that you have to pay to work (which is close to corruption), you don't build your experience that is necessary later to become captain, and you give the company the message you are their slave and they even can abuse you, it doesn't matter: after all you are only an airline pilot, not like you'd have huge responsabilities, high professional level, high background experience, and self confidence in reaching your goal via the honest entry doors.

Better be a cessna caravan pilot for life than an airline pilot who has no self respect.

The pilot job has in itself values that are necessary for the safety of the flight, like honesty, high experience level or self respect, and we will have to remind it to us again and again.


Punk666: in fact I more or less share your viewpoint, I only used some of your sentences to explain some details. Absolutely not against what you said, just used some parts of your post.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 06:28
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: belgium
Age: 30
Posts: 152
Something from another perspective: I'm a wannabe since 10 years now (when I was around 12). From my 18 I've been looking for oppertunities to start flight training (ATPL). I had every chance to go to the bank, get some money and start flight training.. Maybe I wouldn't speak like this now if I had done it.
But what I feel is that a lot of guys who participate in the P2F are screwing things up for people who come after them. Why would an airline pay anyone to fly for them if they can get someone who pays THEM to fly?

I feel very angry every time I read stuff like this. The only one responsible for what you did, how much money you spent on flight training is YOU. Don't go ruin terms and conditions of other pilots because you suffer from the big shiny jet syndrome. Some say it's their only option. Well, why didn't you think about it before you started flight training? I'm at uni hoping to still go for flight training after I graduate. But every person who does P2F is less chance for others to go. I have common sense, I don't want to pay for work.

I'd rather be a C208 pilot all my life and get paid then fly 40 years on some 737 (like KAG said). Is it a shame to fly smaller airplanes and get paid to do so? You might say: 'there are no jobs, even for small airplanes'. Again, didn't you know this before you started flight training? I mean, I don't know how much money each one of you spent, but you should at least have had a B plan (and no, paying to fly is not a solid B-plan).
I really have trouble to understand all of this. You began flight training with the hope to go directly on a big shiny jet for the rest of your life. You invested a few times 10k and now you only see that there are not enough jobs for people with your expierence? I just don't buy it. Instead of doing another job (maybe in aviation, maybe not) and try to pay off you go to a corrupt company making you pay again for some hours. A position that should be a paid one. You are making more debts to probably get out of debts.

The only thing I want to add is: thank you idiots who p2fly. You're not only screwing an entire market up for yourself (I wouldn't care if it was only that), but also for others, young wannabe's, but at the same moment older pilots. This has gone from paying for a typerating to paying for line training. What's next, pay to do a walk around? Pay landing taxes at the airport you fly to as p2f pilot?
Poeli is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 08:30
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 40
Reading numerous posts P2F seems to be a disease.

However, I've got one question which might make you think

...Would you take on a P2F route if you had the funds to do so?
Lakhan is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 09:37
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Spain
Posts: 30
Yes, and I believe most people will do too if after 6 months / one year they're still looking for the dream job. Sitting in your home watching your licenses expire is bad for your own economy and mental state.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 09:53
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Victoria
Posts: 112
Depends where your from

I have met a Kuwaiti and an Omani who for whatever reason didn't get in to the Cadetships offered in their home countries. They were both told that if they went out and got a fATPL, type rated on a 737/320 with 150-250 hours they would get an interview. The airlines also said they would have to pass the same assesment as all other direct entry FO's but the TT minimum would be waived because they were locals.

Remember I said even the locals don't get a guarantee after P2F. Now these guys weren't short of a buck but even they saw it as back dooring because they either didn't have the brains or family connections to get in first time.

These guys don't have to pay anyone back or get a bank loan. Even after P2F if they still don't get in one said he will go to Uni in the UK and do a degree. Money no object.

These are they only guys I can see who can justify P2F

As for everone else, I don't think anyone really starts out with the intention of P2F. I see it like an addicted gambler. You pay 50/80k and no jackpot so you start chasing your losses by gambling more money instead of waiting it out or walking away.
tarmac12 is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 12:25
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 26
What's next, pay to do a walk around? Pay landing taxes at the airport you fly to as p2f pilot?
Careful- don't give them any ideas, seriously!!
alfaaloop is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 12:38
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Madrid
Age: 34
Posts: 87
Everyone who is interested in disrupting P2F should sign up with these programs, under a false identity, send fake ( photoshopped ) licences for these programs and let them hang once they'll be asking why you didn't show up at training on Monday.
The airlines would be so pissed just by seeing that only half of the students have shown up, that they would have to scramble for pilots elsewhere, and thaht would end the P2F link.
dudubrdx is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 18:22
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
I certainly hope that nobody follows dudubrdx flawed advice.

Why not go to tesco's, fill up your trolley with goods, place them on the conveyor belt and then wander off laughing. The same?

How many times.....

P2F is not a job; it is a chance to pay for an experience for those who want, and can afford to pay for it. Nothing more; nothing less.

Iff (mathematical term for if and only if) it leads to paid employment then that is very much a bonus; it is not a given.

Why not go and whinge at the people enjoying a meal at 'The Fat Duck'; are they robbing your dinner? They pay, they get.

Their money helps support the industry, heavily subsidises airfares, and they get my thanks. Infact, for some time the generousity of MOL's little chaps (actually their parents) often makes foreign travel possible for my family. P2F is just a naturally progression of MOL's original splendid idea. Hopefully MOL will climb aboard genuine P2F and airfares will be even further reduced. Lets hope so.

Last edited by BigNumber; 23rd Jan 2012 at 18:37.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 20:00
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Above & Beyond
Posts: 323
People the argument of it being moral and your own self respect means nothing in business.
Aviation is a business and these guys only talk numbers not emotions or feelings but .

Having being round aviation for over 20 years ive learnt that the guy who plays the game fair gets trampled on the most. Unfortunately guys this industry is corrupt and will be for a long time. Jobs are given out internally, through word of mouth or even paying for it. The days of just applying and getting an interview are going to be over very soon seeing as recruitment equals more expense that could be cut down.

It cost nothing to have a recommended guy come in for a quick chat.
punk666 is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 23:37
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 40
Angry

BigNumber,

Once again I ask you to name 4 other professions
where people pay to work, I hope the tax authorities
In the countries within which the P2F schemes operate
are aware that Employers are not paying taxes for
these Employees. Sorry Volunteers.

Why the heck are all the P2F guys bothering with
expensive commercial licences when they are basically
paying for a series of trial lessons.

Come to think of it the Airlines are missing out on a
trick there, if all their employees paid to work, then
all airlines would be profitable.

You go to work and get paid for that work, no if's no
buts that is how it must be, if your F/O is
A profit centre then you don't have a viable business
and it's time the Civil Aviation Authorities of all countries
Involved suspend/revoke the AOC of anyone who operates
with P2F crew.

Will it ever happen No, will it continue Yes
even men/women/children who were part of the slavery
trade were paid in shelter and food.

Be careful what you wish for it might just come true.
DoleBoy is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2012, 01:27
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Victoria
Posts: 112
Up the minimum?

Remember when jobs only required say 1000TT and maybe being type rated? Then it went to type rated with 150 hours on type. Then it went to 300 hours on type and now its generally 500 hours on type. Have you noticed the P2F companies offer 150,300 and 500 hour programs? I cant wait for the airlines to up the minimum to 750 hours on type. Just wait and see how long it takes for P2F outfits to start offering a 750 hour program.

Everyone who has just paid for 500 hours will go back and pay for more. I will sit back and laugh my arse off!!!!
tarmac12 is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2012, 02:32
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,263
I can't say I ever remember it being like that, and I have been around quite a long time. Five hundred hours on type has always been something of a minimum bench mark for a type rated pilot. However it is rarely as simple as that. Recruitment that I am familar with, tends to look carefully at how and where experience has been aquired in an applicants background. Some of this stuff you really wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Not only because it is dubious, but also because the world is awash with applicants with good quality backgrounds.

For cadets, we provide the training and the experience. For experienced applicants we expect to see resumes that include recognised quality companies, and verifiable experience. I am sure it is the same for most quality airlines.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2012, 09:04
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Victoria
Posts: 112
I remember

Bealzebub,

VAC only needed 300 hours on type for quite a while. Alot of Turbo prop contract gigs only used to require 300 or less. I remember Biz jet jobs only needing 100 hours on type but they don't figure in P2F usually.

What your saying about quality of previous employers and general background I agree with totally. If you believe what jetjockey says in the Lion Air thread there are around 300 expat FO's at Lion right now. I would bet 90% are pay to fly. Once these people start sending off Resume's to every half decent carrier that are left in the world they will quickly lift the minimum just to stop getting swamped by these people. 500 hours is just a filter and when the filter isn't effective they change it to suit the needs of the airline. If I was getting swamped by P2F resume's I would up it to 750 hours on type. Yes, having 500 hours just gets your Resume into the pile. It doesn't get you a guarantee of an interview. Try explaining that to the latest P2f grad.

If we are to believe what the good old economists are saying right now there will be much more pain before gain so even fewer jobs around for experienced guys and virtually none for the newbee.
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