OAA, CTC, CABAIR Which Integrated Course
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CTC also occasionally has options for Monarch, which will eventually allow you to fly long haul in a mixed-fleet sort of arrangement, as far as I know. However, you have to be exactly at the right place in the line when the relatively small number of openings come up.
Long haul carriers, from what I know, have been recruiting guys and girls with type rating and a certain amount of experience. These pilots seem to have come from places like Ryan and Easy, which leaves opportunities for inexperienced cadets who are able and willing to pay towards a type rating (a whole separate argument). A few years in one of these organisations puts you in a position to apply for a long-haul operator. Scroggs wrote in other posts that you cannot really learn to fly commercially in a long-haul environment, which I imagine is why Cathay Pacific operates a cadet / Second Officer scheme.
Anyway, that aside, GA Button wrote:
...was just wondering if you could point me in the direction of said airline?? 
Good luck,
Long haul carriers, from what I know, have been recruiting guys and girls with type rating and a certain amount of experience. These pilots seem to have come from places like Ryan and Easy, which leaves opportunities for inexperienced cadets who are able and willing to pay towards a type rating (a whole separate argument). A few years in one of these organisations puts you in a position to apply for a long-haul operator. Scroggs wrote in other posts that you cannot really learn to fly commercially in a long-haul environment, which I imagine is why Cathay Pacific operates a cadet / Second Officer scheme.
Anyway, that aside, GA Button wrote:
you will find yourself in a jet, hopefully employed by someone who does actually care about you and respects your experience
Good luck,
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At a risk of feeding the troll and I'll take a stab anyway, just for the craic! 
You heard it here first folks!! 
You should go back and read some of your posts and you should see quite clearly.
Read that again and try to comprehend what you are saying. "The initial 65K is alot money" I'm not going to harp on about why an Integrated course is a bad idea, I really don't have the patience and it is already well documented on these forums (and elsewhere).
The impression one gets from reading your posts is you want to an 'Airline Pilot' and seem quite willing to buy a licence. At the end of the day you will need to justify your application to any airline by way of interview - you will need to sell yourself, set yourself apart from the other thousands of applicants. I can't see how you can demonstrate a passion for the career if you 'buy' a licence - you will fool no one.
Everywhere!! (In the form of exam fee's, landing fee's, IAP fee's, licence issue fee's, take a dump outside scheduled dumping time fee's etc etc etc).
Good for you!
I genuinely do apologise if I am being a bit harsh, but you honestly give the impression that you havn't researched this even slightly, you seem quite happy to pay through the nose for a licence and to pay for your own type rating. Why should airlines recruit pilots with experience and passion when there is an endless queue of mindless **** with deep pockets who will fly for peanuts and pay for their own training??
Where are you getting these figures from?
In 15 months the economy will have picked up and thoes qualified pilots will have found jobs
If I am being really dumb please spell it out but as I have the money and time available why is the Integrated route so bad
Ok I get that the initial 65K is a lot of money but is this type of intensive training good for a new pilot.
The impression one gets from reading your posts is you want to an 'Airline Pilot' and seem quite willing to buy a licence. At the end of the day you will need to justify your application to any airline by way of interview - you will need to sell yourself, set yourself apart from the other thousands of applicants. I can't see how you can demonstrate a passion for the career if you 'buy' a licence - you will fool no one.
are there that many hidden extras?
I am not trying to add in the living expenses at the moment as I don't need to worry to much about that side of things
I genuinely do apologise if I am being a bit harsh, but you honestly give the impression that you havn't researched this even slightly, you seem quite happy to pay through the nose for a licence and to pay for your own type rating. Why should airlines recruit pilots with experience and passion when there is an endless queue of mindless **** with deep pockets who will fly for peanuts and pay for their own training??
So Modular would take me between 2 and 4 years depending on how quickly i took it all and Integrated would take between 1 and 2 years.
Modular would cost between 50 - 70K to get to fATPL with around 300hrs.
Integrated would cost between 65 - 80K for the same.
Integrated would cost between 65 - 80K for the same.
@charliefly - To be honest, I don't know if that is a realistic figure or not as I have not started training yet. By my calculations it is, although I am prepared to budget for a type rating at a later stage if the industry deems it necessary. Of course I am hoping that aviation will be in better shape in 2-3 years time when I should have completed my training. Like you, fortunately I can afford to pay for an intergrated course myself without borrowing, so personal risk is limited. I realise it is a lot of money, although I am confident that I am making the right deciscion. The way I see it is that an intergrated course will give me the best opportunities at the end of training, either with a partner airline or without.
With regard to hidden extra's, CTC has provided us a list of things that are included and things that are not. Ryan5252 says that you must pay for exam fees, landing fees, taking a dump fees. Though I am not sure about the last item, according to my contract with CTC these are all included. If you had to resit the ATPLs there may be additional fees, but according to the CTC marketing ATPL exam failure rate is incredibly low so I shouldn't worry too much about that as an extra cost.
You should be concerned about the living expenses as it always ends up costing more than you had planned. However, going back to your original question, I think that £95,000 is a fairly realistic price (if you can avoid paying for a TR), but it is your gamble so don't quote me.
With regard to hidden extra's, CTC has provided us a list of things that are included and things that are not. Ryan5252 says that you must pay for exam fees, landing fees, taking a dump fees. Though I am not sure about the last item, according to my contract with CTC these are all included. If you had to resit the ATPLs there may be additional fees, but according to the CTC marketing ATPL exam failure rate is incredibly low so I shouldn't worry too much about that as an extra cost.
You should be concerned about the living expenses as it always ends up costing more than you had planned. However, going back to your original question, I think that £95,000 is a fairly realistic price (if you can avoid paying for a TR), but it is your gamble so don't quote me.
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according to the CTC marketing ATPL exam failure rate is incredibly low so I shouldn't worry too much about that as an extra cost
@Ryan5252 - I thought that statement would probably raise a few eyebrows. I was going to add a disclaimer but thought i'd take the risk. Your comment suggests that you believe they are being dishonest. CTC claim the following...
99.8% pass all 14 ATPL subjects at first attempt
Average mark across all 14 subjects is 93.4%
You must give them credit, to make up these figures and sell a course based on a blatant lie would surely be legal suicide. Do you have any evidence that these figures have been falsified?
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I was going to add a disclaimer but thought i'd take the risk. Your comment suggests that you believe they are being dishonest.
Do you have any evidence that these figures have been falsified?
I thought that statement would probably raise a few eyebrows.
Ryan
Sorry, it seemed to me that due to your earlier hostility towards integrated training programs that dishonesty was implied; I did indeed use the phrase 'your comments suggest'. However, if I was mistaken, then I apologise. That aside, there is no need to be rude about myself or any of the other 'mindless ****' that are prepared to pay for their training.
You know as well as I do that if I call the FTOs, I will not hear a lot of positive news regarding their employment statistics for the last 3 years; so there is no point in me doing so. Surely the same is true for modular or integrated students. If you are so convinced that commercial flying training is a bad idea, then why are you on this forum? This topic was supposed to be about comparing the merits of the various integrated FTOs and doesn't require your nonconstructive input.
You know as well as I do that if I call the FTOs, I will not hear a lot of positive news regarding their employment statistics for the last 3 years; so there is no point in me doing so. Surely the same is true for modular or integrated students. If you are so convinced that commercial flying training is a bad idea, then why are you on this forum? This topic was supposed to be about comparing the merits of the various integrated FTOs and doesn't require your nonconstructive input.
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However, if I was mistaken, then I apologise.
there is no need to be rude about myself or any of the other 'mindless ****' that are prepared to pay for their training.
You know as well as I do that if I call the FTOs, I will not hear a lot of positive news regarding their employment statistics for the last 3 years; so there is no point in me doing so.
Surely the same is true for modular or integrated students.
If you are so convinced that commercial flying training is a bad idea, then why are you on this forum?
This topic was supposed to be about comparing the merits of the various integrated FTOs and doesn't require your nonconstructive input.
What say you?
ATPL theory credits expire and people still borrow money for modular courses. The OP says he has the cash to pay for an integrated course so hopefully debt should not be a problem for him. Whether or not it is a good or bad decision personally is another issue, only the OP can decide that. You say modular is safer because you can pay as you go, if the OP has earned the money already, then that is irrelevant as he should have still budgeted accordingly. If he has the money to leave work to train, then lucky him.
I realise the 'mindless' comment was not aimed at me, but I did feel 'little wonder you seem to have been so easily sold by CTC' was. Don't worry, I won't bear a grudge! Right, bed time!
I realise the 'mindless' comment was not aimed at me, but I did feel 'little wonder you seem to have been so easily sold by CTC' was. Don't worry, I won't bear a grudge! Right, bed time!
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For what it's worth I'm going to give my opinion on the integrated course at Cabair which I had the "pleasure" of being on. I'd like to make a few points about doing an integrated course which they don't always advertise.
The duration of the course advertised is an absolute minimum, and very few complete it in that time. You have to be extremely lucky with the weather (I had to delay my CPL for nearly 3 months over Christmas), pass all of your tests in the first series and I say this regarding mandatory retraining that can be imposed if certain tests are failed. I knew people who failed the ME-CPL twice and it can get very messy with the CAA, and expensive when it's costing nearly £500 per hour to fly the twin.
I can only speak for where I trained, however what I found is that half of the instructors were pilots who had been flying for many years and that was what they did (some still better than others), and the other half were instructors who were building their hours in the hope of flying commercially one day. The result of that I believe led to regular disagreements and tension between students and instructors as it appeared they resented the fact they were instructing people who were trying to fast-track themselves into an airline. The reason I'm making this point is because I now fly with a school elsewhere for hour building and practice and the difference in the relationship with the staff and students is remarkable. Cabair may well be the exception and everywhere else is very friendly and supportive, but seeing as the original poster mentioned Cabair I thought it was worth saying.
Don't just visit Cabair on one of their open days! Make sure you go individually and talk to the students, ask them about waiting times for aircraft and how many hours they are doing per week. Also, ask the management whether any groups of sponsored students are going to start when you are, as despite what they say, you will get pushed back as they have strict deadlines for completion from their respective airlines. On the open days all of the red carpet is rolled out, they treat you to a fancy buffet in a building that has nothing to do with Cabair, and won't show you the real state of the place, the crew room in prefabs, the grotty class rooms which are freezing in winter and boiling in summer. I never wanted luxury of any kind, but when you're paying 70-80k for a course, well need I say any more? You get better facilities at a city college.
I could go on all day about Cabair but I won't, I will happily admit I made the mistake of doing an integrated course. In hindsight, I should have gone modular and worked my way through it. However, I'm trying to make the best of it. Luckily I got a job the week before I took my IR, so have been able to keep earning money, and I try to save up to pay my bills, and do a couple of hours of SEP flying each month. I work in a large place and there are lots and lots of people who want to go flying so they pay for the hours as well. I'm not prepared to fork out 20-30k for a type rating unless I have a solid contract at the end of it. I've realised that only the lucky few leave an integrated course and get a job straight away and although I would love to be flying commercially right now, I'm actually appreciating the value of building up my experience the hard way. I'm starting to enjoy flying again as the experience of a FATPL is so intensive that it almost stops being enjoyable and that is one reason why I'd argue for modular. I think the integrated course was designed to provide ready pilots to the airlines, yet in practice it has been exploited by both the FTO's and the airlines alike. The FTO's can sell a dream to people, and the few airlines which take on mainly integrated cadets know that we'll keep paying until we get there.
Anyway sorry for the long rant and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
The duration of the course advertised is an absolute minimum, and very few complete it in that time. You have to be extremely lucky with the weather (I had to delay my CPL for nearly 3 months over Christmas), pass all of your tests in the first series and I say this regarding mandatory retraining that can be imposed if certain tests are failed. I knew people who failed the ME-CPL twice and it can get very messy with the CAA, and expensive when it's costing nearly £500 per hour to fly the twin.
I can only speak for where I trained, however what I found is that half of the instructors were pilots who had been flying for many years and that was what they did (some still better than others), and the other half were instructors who were building their hours in the hope of flying commercially one day. The result of that I believe led to regular disagreements and tension between students and instructors as it appeared they resented the fact they were instructing people who were trying to fast-track themselves into an airline. The reason I'm making this point is because I now fly with a school elsewhere for hour building and practice and the difference in the relationship with the staff and students is remarkable. Cabair may well be the exception and everywhere else is very friendly and supportive, but seeing as the original poster mentioned Cabair I thought it was worth saying.
Don't just visit Cabair on one of their open days! Make sure you go individually and talk to the students, ask them about waiting times for aircraft and how many hours they are doing per week. Also, ask the management whether any groups of sponsored students are going to start when you are, as despite what they say, you will get pushed back as they have strict deadlines for completion from their respective airlines. On the open days all of the red carpet is rolled out, they treat you to a fancy buffet in a building that has nothing to do with Cabair, and won't show you the real state of the place, the crew room in prefabs, the grotty class rooms which are freezing in winter and boiling in summer. I never wanted luxury of any kind, but when you're paying 70-80k for a course, well need I say any more? You get better facilities at a city college.
I could go on all day about Cabair but I won't, I will happily admit I made the mistake of doing an integrated course. In hindsight, I should have gone modular and worked my way through it. However, I'm trying to make the best of it. Luckily I got a job the week before I took my IR, so have been able to keep earning money, and I try to save up to pay my bills, and do a couple of hours of SEP flying each month. I work in a large place and there are lots and lots of people who want to go flying so they pay for the hours as well. I'm not prepared to fork out 20-30k for a type rating unless I have a solid contract at the end of it. I've realised that only the lucky few leave an integrated course and get a job straight away and although I would love to be flying commercially right now, I'm actually appreciating the value of building up my experience the hard way. I'm starting to enjoy flying again as the experience of a FATPL is so intensive that it almost stops being enjoyable and that is one reason why I'd argue for modular. I think the integrated course was designed to provide ready pilots to the airlines, yet in practice it has been exploited by both the FTO's and the airlines alike. The FTO's can sell a dream to people, and the few airlines which take on mainly integrated cadets know that we'll keep paying until we get there.
Anyway sorry for the long rant and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
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Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy
Firstly when did you complete the course?
Secondly you don't paint a brilliant picture of CABAIR, from the staff - student relationship, the facilities such as class rooms, and waiting times for aircraft. Would you recommend the course?
I understand the need to pass things first time to remain on budget and time line but should you do this are their figures accurate. Is it a all in package as far as the training and flight time, landing fees, exams, books etc go. I know accommodation and living expenses are extra.
I just don't want to sign up for a course to then be told that to complete the course you have to do x extra and it costs 25K
Also where you are working now that you seem much happier at, where are you working? PM me.
Thanks
P.s. Has anyone got any opinions on the course at Oxford, EFT, or CTC
Firstly when did you complete the course?
Secondly you don't paint a brilliant picture of CABAIR, from the staff - student relationship, the facilities such as class rooms, and waiting times for aircraft. Would you recommend the course?
I understand the need to pass things first time to remain on budget and time line but should you do this are their figures accurate. Is it a all in package as far as the training and flight time, landing fees, exams, books etc go. I know accommodation and living expenses are extra.
I just don't want to sign up for a course to then be told that to complete the course you have to do x extra and it costs 25K
Also where you are working now that you seem much happier at, where are you working? PM me.
Thanks
P.s. Has anyone got any opinions on the course at Oxford, EFT, or CTC
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No problem, here are the answers;
I finished the course in the early summer of last year,
Would I recommend the course, hmm, it's difficult to say really, a lot of things are subjective and as I've only done one course I only have experience from cabair. However given the current climate and the cost of the course I might have to say no.
At the time I did the course, this is what was included but it may have changed;
Ground school tuition and books
Additional equipment such as compass, CRP5, uniform, maps etc.
Headset, high vis, logbook
Flying hours and landing fees.
What isn't included
All ground school exams £60 each approx.
Fuel surcharges - this may have changed recently, however we were forced into paying an extra £9 per hour single and about £15 for the twin (a total scam as it was only to ensure they could keep their profit margin)
Any retests you pay for the flying hours
IR test fee think it was about £750
Accommodation and transport
Licence £200 I think, and if you want SEP endorsed that's another £150 or so. Sorry for the figures being approximate I can't really remember.
There's no surprise 25k at the end unless you mess up all of your tests and overfly. Most people I knew ended up with a bill of between 1k-5k at the end of training, and this was mainly due to needing additional hours on the twin. The single engine training forms the majority of the training, where as you are expected to do the twin training in around 15 hours or so. You're only supposed to have 5 hours on the twin before you do your ME CPL! A good thing I can say about Cabair is that because they use the DA40 and DA42 for training, moving from the single to the twin is very easy because the cockpit layout is near identical so all you have to contend with is learning all the assym stuff and new speeds etc. Not to downplay that side of things though, it's still pretty intensive, but at least it's not an entirely unfamiliar environment, Anyhow, I'd say the first time pass rate on the ME-CPL when I was there was probably 2 out of 5 passing first time, the other 3 split between out right fail or partial pass which seemed to be the most common. Cabair like to publish their first series pass rate for the IR as being about 98% (first series includes a partial fail), the reality is I'd say 50% pass first time, the rest partial and a very few fail. The partial retest is another £500 to the CAA and the same again to Cabair for the plane. They do not take prisoners!
Most of the people I knew that partial however generally did so because of silly mistakes as a result of nerves, only a couple of people were actually told they were not at the standard and needed more training.
A couple of other things I forgot to mention previously, a lot of changes took place at Cabair over the past year or so. A lot of instructors left, numbers of aircraft were decreased, some of the buildings were given back to Cranfield University and so staff have been shifted. A lot of new office/admin staff have come in (I say a lot, it's run by about 4-5 people) but the old staff left for one reason or another. I also heard recently that Cabair were bought out by a new investment group, I've no idea what changes this may bring but it's worth raising the issue. The big advantage with Cabair from what I've heard of the other schools is the flexibility. If you're married, have kids etc, they are much more reasonable as to where you choose to live and your attendance arrangements. I went to an inner city state school and I felt rather at home at Cabair, if you wanted to turn up and fly, you would, if you didn't turn up at all, no one really pushed you. As far as they were concerned, they had your money making interest in the bank and it was one less person to schedule. Shocking as this may seem, I knew and still know a few people who have been doing the course for nearly 4 years as they never turn up. There's also a chap who has been there for longer as seems to disappear for a year on end.
As for my job now, I work in computers, enough said
Look at the facts of it all but make up your own mind as to whether you want to "invest" 100k in this outfit. My honest opinion in general, work hard at school/college, go to Uni, study Law/Medicine/Engineering where you can always find work, do a PPL, build up your hours, get your night rating, IMC, CPL, tail dragging, sea plane, banner towing, whatever you can. Join a club, meet people, taxi the aircraft, wash them with a sponge, do as much as you can to stay involved, and just enjoy it. If the industry picks up again, you'll have a CV longer than your arm with REAL flying commitment. And if it doesn't pick up, well if flying is your dream, flying a PA28 is still flying! Just enjoy it
I finished the course in the early summer of last year,
Would I recommend the course, hmm, it's difficult to say really, a lot of things are subjective and as I've only done one course I only have experience from cabair. However given the current climate and the cost of the course I might have to say no.
At the time I did the course, this is what was included but it may have changed;
Ground school tuition and books
Additional equipment such as compass, CRP5, uniform, maps etc.
Headset, high vis, logbook
Flying hours and landing fees.
What isn't included
All ground school exams £60 each approx.
Fuel surcharges - this may have changed recently, however we were forced into paying an extra £9 per hour single and about £15 for the twin (a total scam as it was only to ensure they could keep their profit margin)
Any retests you pay for the flying hours
IR test fee think it was about £750
Accommodation and transport
Licence £200 I think, and if you want SEP endorsed that's another £150 or so. Sorry for the figures being approximate I can't really remember.
There's no surprise 25k at the end unless you mess up all of your tests and overfly. Most people I knew ended up with a bill of between 1k-5k at the end of training, and this was mainly due to needing additional hours on the twin. The single engine training forms the majority of the training, where as you are expected to do the twin training in around 15 hours or so. You're only supposed to have 5 hours on the twin before you do your ME CPL! A good thing I can say about Cabair is that because they use the DA40 and DA42 for training, moving from the single to the twin is very easy because the cockpit layout is near identical so all you have to contend with is learning all the assym stuff and new speeds etc. Not to downplay that side of things though, it's still pretty intensive, but at least it's not an entirely unfamiliar environment, Anyhow, I'd say the first time pass rate on the ME-CPL when I was there was probably 2 out of 5 passing first time, the other 3 split between out right fail or partial pass which seemed to be the most common. Cabair like to publish their first series pass rate for the IR as being about 98% (first series includes a partial fail), the reality is I'd say 50% pass first time, the rest partial and a very few fail. The partial retest is another £500 to the CAA and the same again to Cabair for the plane. They do not take prisoners!
Most of the people I knew that partial however generally did so because of silly mistakes as a result of nerves, only a couple of people were actually told they were not at the standard and needed more training.
A couple of other things I forgot to mention previously, a lot of changes took place at Cabair over the past year or so. A lot of instructors left, numbers of aircraft were decreased, some of the buildings were given back to Cranfield University and so staff have been shifted. A lot of new office/admin staff have come in (I say a lot, it's run by about 4-5 people) but the old staff left for one reason or another. I also heard recently that Cabair were bought out by a new investment group, I've no idea what changes this may bring but it's worth raising the issue. The big advantage with Cabair from what I've heard of the other schools is the flexibility. If you're married, have kids etc, they are much more reasonable as to where you choose to live and your attendance arrangements. I went to an inner city state school and I felt rather at home at Cabair, if you wanted to turn up and fly, you would, if you didn't turn up at all, no one really pushed you. As far as they were concerned, they had your money making interest in the bank and it was one less person to schedule. Shocking as this may seem, I knew and still know a few people who have been doing the course for nearly 4 years as they never turn up. There's also a chap who has been there for longer as seems to disappear for a year on end.
As for my job now, I work in computers, enough said
Look at the facts of it all but make up your own mind as to whether you want to "invest" 100k in this outfit. My honest opinion in general, work hard at school/college, go to Uni, study Law/Medicine/Engineering where you can always find work, do a PPL, build up your hours, get your night rating, IMC, CPL, tail dragging, sea plane, banner towing, whatever you can. Join a club, meet people, taxi the aircraft, wash them with a sponge, do as much as you can to stay involved, and just enjoy it. If the industry picks up again, you'll have a CV longer than your arm with REAL flying commitment. And if it doesn't pick up, well if flying is your dream, flying a PA28 is still flying! Just enjoy it
Last edited by flyingguy1984; 10th Feb 2011 at 11:28.
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Quote:
Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy
I'd like to think my contribution to this thread was constructive ...
Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy
I'd like to think my contribution to this thread was constructive ...
CharlieFly, why don't you try reading the CTC Wings thread for opinions on the course? Not sure why I'm bothering to offer more input though, with a comment like the one above!
Ok, building on flyingguys good post, in the latest info from CTC provide the following equipment; a flight bag, navigation ruler, a protractor, dividers, calculator, CRP5 computer, kneeboard, jeppesen student route manual and all uniform (excluding socks, so I guess pants are included). The following are specifically not provided; initial medical exam fees, medical renewal fees, CPL/IR license issue fees, foundation course training fees, criminal record check fees, food and living costs, accomodation when on leave during training, provision of personal transport, uniform items not provided by CTC, the cost of travelling to and from the airport (when flying to and from NZ) and all insurance cover. This list is only provided to give you something for you to base your calculations on. Many of the excluded items are expensive, a class 1 medical cost me £330 and course insurance is going to cost around £1000 if you are under 30. I expect that the list of exclusions will be very similar at FTE or OAA but I don't know the details.