OAA, CTC, CABAIR Which Integrated Course
 

Can anyone give some insight to the best integrated training programs. It is very difficult to see through all the marketing on the websites.

Reading the threads on here CTC seems to be popular and Oxford not so much.

My own personal front runner at the moment is CABAIR

Any help would be gratefully appreciated as it's obviously a hugh chunk of my savings.

Your bloody daft looking at any of them in the current climate.

Does Cabair offer any sort of airline partnership scheme? I haven't looked at Cabair in much detail, but between OAA and CTC, I feel that CTC offer the most promising job finding solution (note: I didn't use the words 'ideal' or 'perfect'). Aside from perhaps a direct sponsorship by an airline, it is arguably your best chance at gaining a job at the end of the various intergrated training programs.

It's maybe worthwhile looking at the FlyBe scheme running at the moment, they invited me along to an assessment day/weekend but I declined as I felt training for an ATPL would be more valuable in the job market than an airline specific MPL if anything were to happen to the sponsor airline.

Oxford still has a very good reputation, when I told my flying school that I was going to do an intergrated course, the first thing they said was "Oh, is that at Oxford?". I feel that CTC is the correct choice for me there is at least a slim possibility I may get a job at the end of it. Something no other training providers can specifically offer.

If you're young, free and single don't bother with any of them.

Go and find a job you enjoy almost as much as you think you will flying, but which you can walk in and out of. Build up your qualifications in modules and in the meantime makes loads of friends at various airfields. The sort of mates you'll probably know for the rest of your life and who you will share amazing aviation related experiences with (whilst getting very drunk and having a right old laugh). Do some instructing, some para dropping, fly as many different kinds of aircraft as you can (preferably in one day!). Be stony broke but not give a toss because you're in an enviroment and doing stuff you love more than life itself. One day (and the time flies) someone with a bit of influence will notice what a well rounded sort of person you are, with plenty of flying experience and damn nice to know. They will shove you in a certain direction - air taxi or regional turbo prop. Go with it and embark on a whole new, breathtaking learning process. Soak it all up and come to appreciate all that time you were worried you were wasting doing the above was in fact priceless. Enjoy getting to grips with the serious side of flying. Before too much more time elapses you will find yourself in a jet, hopefully employed by someone who does actually care about you and respects your experience and as you progress deeper into your career you will always look back on those early days with huge fondness and appreciate what you learnt and how you learnt it.

Then one day you will find yourself writing an impassioned diatribe (probably full of bad spellings and grammar) on a public forum trying to convince someone that some things are worth taking your time over for the amount of pleasure you will gain, and that you shouldn't be in a rush to spend all your money quickly when you can spend it slowly and get so much more back.

Just a thought...... Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Mad Jock,

Please explain, because as far as I'm aware the situation is a bit better than every one makes out. We are currently in a slow period, which is getting better after about 4 years of real hardship. yes there are a lot of pilots currently out of work however I wont be qualified for at least 15 months.

In 15 months the economy will have picked up and thoes qualified pilots will have found jobs. Some will have retired some will have lost their medical cert.

Asia is the fastest and largest growing economy and is not showing any signs of slowing in any sector, especially tourism as more of the people can afford to travel. As international flight is still ruled by the english language, pilots will always be forced, and for that matter ATC's, to speak english so working from Honk Kong or Beijing would be a problem.

I am in the fortunate situation where I have the £70K to spend on training and will not be in Debt when i finish, but even if i was surely with hard work an persistence the jobs are out there.

Why in you opinion are the integrated courses so bad?

GA Button, you said "Go and find a job you enjoy almost as much as you think you will flying, but which you can walk in and out of."

If I could I would - but to be honest I can't

I'm 29, well educated, and a little lost. I cannot find a job in the industry which I have spent 10 years getting experience. however I am fortunate enough to have made some money.

So I'm looking for a career change and without seeming blind sighted, would it not be easier to do an integrated course in a shorter period of time and then have a qualification than stretch it out over a much longer period to achieve the same goal?

Asia you require hours to quaify for a work permit in asia.

There are hundreds if not thousands of 737 drivers out there so much so as a turboprop captain I was earning more than a 737 skipper because of supply and demand in my last company.

There are thousands of 200 hour wannabies out there.

You can have 70k but realistically you need 120k as an intergrated student to pay for the ryan type rating.

Crack on and go for it but please be aware the only thing you are doing is helping the airlines out with keeping training capacity operational in europe.

Despatch riding worked for me :)

My disclaimer was, of course, the very first line of my rhetoric. Having said that, if you are looking for a career change is there any harm in taking your time to sink into it and make sure it's really for you? You're going to spend the money either way so why not give yourself the option and do it slowly with the ability to either back out or speed up the process because of your cash reserves? You also won't have the intense pressure an integrated course will probably put you under and therefore more time to relax and enjoy ;)

Go and spend your 70 grand Charlie, join the long line of lemmings. In all probability you will not get a flying job in the next 2-5years. Even if you do it will be at Ryanair so you'll need another well 30-40k?!

Go to Oxford It's an extra 10k but you'll have more fun. Avoid Cabair unless your 'tough' in a mental sense.

Hmm actually 70k ain't gong to get you very far…You'll need at least 100k to stand a chance.

I just don't understand why everyone is so negative about the integrated route.

Ok I get that the initial 65K is a lot of money but is this type of intensive training good for a new pilot. Learning everything in a short space of time thus not having time to forget anything or become complacent or pick up bad habits.

And with so hard work - good results and the right attitude there must be jobs out there.

No one on this forum is saying don't train to become a pilot they are only saying don't do it integrated because of the cost I suppose.

So Modular would take me between 2 and 4 years depending on how quickly i took it all and Integrated would take between 1 and 2 years.

Modular would cost between 50 - 70K to get to fATPL with around 300hrs.
Integrated would cost between 65 - 80K for the same.

If I am being really dumb please spell it out but as I have the money and time available why is the Integrated route so bad

HidekiTojo you say avoid CABAIR unless you are mentally tough, surely that is a trait desired from an airline in their pilots? And secondly surely a tough school is better than one that will just let you swan through without pushing you and the airlines will know that also.

Go for it mate.

People don't want to accept it but the economy and the Airlines are changing. These day's you won't get into Easyjet/Ryanair/British Airways when they are hiring without the words:

Intergrated
First Time Pass Rate

On that CV

I think that many may have a chip on their shoulder because they have struggled to find work as some airlines have favored integrated students over the modular guys, this might explain why some forum members brand you stupid without knowing anything about you or your financial situation because they feel downtrodden. The increase in fuel costs has had a big impact on the cost of modular courses whereas CTC's costs have not increased that dramatically, although the number of hours in of real flying has reduced over the years to a minimum.

Some points made by the anti-integrated brigade are good though. They point out that the realistic costs of the course a little higher than the £69k CTC tells you will need to get an frozen ATPL and a job. I would not start the course without £95,000 of finance at your disposal, and say another £25k for a TR if that becomes necessary. But you must make sure that £120k is available, be it through personal wealth or the bank if it is willing to lend to you.

Edited : To make sense, I appear to have lost the ability to write this week

If you want to do it, go for it. In my opinion the industry is on the up. By the time you start the course it could be 6 months, add a year and half for training and that will bring you out in 2 years when, I believe, the industry will be in a much better position than it is now. I wouldve said now is a good time to start. If you're thinking of OAA/CTC (can't speak about cabair as don't know much about it) 85k is probably too little...factoring living expenses/rent etc and the fact that there is a high chance you'll need to fund a type rating I wouldve said 120k is a safe amount to budget for. There is a risk you won't find a job but from the integrated school I trained at I believe only 9/10 are still looking out of the 60 or so that were in or finished just before/after my course.

Another Victim...
 

I appreciate that you are just 17 but...

Where on earth did you hear this? Was it at an OAA open day? That may be true if you want to get into BA but certainly not for Ryanair or Easyjet. Even BA haven't been recruiting fresh fATPL holders for a few years now and won't be for the foreseeable future, with the amount of excess pilot's there are. The Integrated route would only make sense right now if you had an airline sponsor or part-sponsor your training and take a substantial financial risk away from you (like the Flybe route through Cabair).

It makes no sense to do an Integrated course as the market stands right now. There are no airlines hiring 200houred guys, without having to pay for a type rating. If you really value your money, you would reduce the risk in this very uncertain job market and pace yourself with the job market as it moves.

Also, Integrated is not necessarily better than Modular by the way. You can complete a Modular route in the same time or even less time than an Integrated route if you structure it like an Integrated route. Yes the market could look a lot better in a year or two, but with the way the economy is going recently would you bet on it?

I think the Integrated route is great when the industry is rosy and all is well in the 200hour job market. However, this is just simply not the case right now.

Charlie if you can afford the course, in the sense of being able to afford the repayments whilst waiting to get a job flying - then go for it.

You should choose the school which best suits YOU.

I work for a major UK airline which has taken on students (only integrated) from all of the schools you have mentioned.

Having spoken to the pilots involved in recruitment at the airline I work for, no particular integrated school is favoured over the other. (You didn't mention FTE, but that's irrelevant). We have SSPs from all of them.

What matters are your course results, and how you perform at any interview offered.

You need to look at training materials, results of other students, maybe attend a classroom session etc.

I would NOT make a decision based on which school you think airline XYZ likes the most ...

giggitygiggity you said 'I would not start the course without 95,000 of available for the actual course'

taking out living expenses such as rent and food, is this still a realistic figure for the course, are there that many hidden extras?

I'm trying to budget for the course I am not trying to add in the living expenses at the moment as I don't need to worry to much about that side of things.

So assuming that I get through the course in the high percentages and first time passes, is the quoted figure from these schools accurate?

My experience

used car salesman of 10 years and PPL holder, had enough jacked it in sold up and went to FTE Jerez. Loved every minute!
Worked and played hard, met loads of great people!
Interviewed day before graduation by UK airline and offered job 30 mins before graduating! have never looked back!
The airlines want the best people especially as supply is out numbering demand, so give yourself the best chance and have the training THEY prefer! But don't forget its not just the license they require, its a personality too! " could I/do I want to sit next to this person for 12 hours a day?" I think some people forget about that bit and assume they are owed a job by the airlines just because they have paid all the money for the license!
( i dont agree with being forced to buy a type rating, but its supply and demand again and cost saving in every airline so can see why its here )
Do what is best for YOU and pick the school YOU will get the most from.

Good Luck

Smell the coffee,

Thanks for your post, I can afford the course and thats from some good savings over the last 10 years not a loan.

My query was more about the quality of the courses rather than the recruitment from airlines to be honest, if as you say the airlines look at them in basically the same light that's good news.

I'm off the CABAIR on Tuesday and Oxford on Sat to have a look round. Is CTC a good choice really - to me it just looks like a feeder for Easy and Ryan, when my ambition is to work for a long-haul carrier.

Cheers

To be honest, one could say the same of OAA and the other schools ... the vast majority of recent graduates that have been offered a flying job, most likely have gone to easyJet, Ryan and others - for the simple reason that they have been the only airlines recruiting fATPLs recently.

If the quality of the course is your main concern (fair enough), then it doesn't really matter whether almost all of school XYZ's graduates have gone to easy/Ryan ... you can still do the integrated course and then turn them down if that is what you want.

You may have to consider the fact that you won't be able to work for a longhaul carrier when you graduate . I'm not aware of any airlines that will recruit grads straight on to long range aircraft except as Second Officers (CX).

Best of luck.

I'm afraid there is almost zero chance of finishing flight training and going straight to long haul...although it does happen very occasionally. Have you tried looking at cathays cadet scheme because If that's what you want then you may as well try and do that and save yourself 100k. I'm only aware of KLM too taking cadets straight onto longhaul as relief pilots for a couple of years (like Cathay)