Fed up with this career

[shaun ryder]

Sorry but I have to say the same as the above. Sort your head out and stop crying about flying for a career, your choice, live with it or get out. Half these lot on here would sell their grandmothers for a flying job like you have.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Half these lot on here would sell their grandmothers for a flying job like you have.

... which is exactly the reason WHY this profession is so ed up.

Can't have it both ways Shaunryder ...

Either YOU guys stand up for what you believe, and refuse to "sell your grandmother" just to get into the driver's seat ...

... or else, bend over and take it, in which case you should probably STFU when people in our position complain about how screwed up the industry has become.

Your choice.

[silvercare]

But for that comment...get a life..!!

No offence but why ? If you didn't notice I got one and it is beatiful. I don't need to cheat to myself making others belive I am super hero, super man like many others do while they are people incapable to enjoy their luck or believing they should get something more just because they are better than who knows what...

Enjoy what you have and stop crying. During free time try to fight to improve this world and fight for justice. Two third of the World are starving and should I get a life ? Please, grow-up children.

[initial vector]

Grass is always greener...

Guys, it seems the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... Believe me, Business / Executive / Corporate aviation is by far (!!) the best way to go!

I had a job on a business jet, best time of my life!

OK, granted, I was lucky as many trips would go something like this:
(hope this will make all "doomers" re-think giving up on aviation all together)
- wake up
- drive to your local coffee shop (wait for it to open)
- have a freshly baked croissant and a steamy cup of coffee
- drive to the airport, park the car
- stroll to the private jet, open the door to let it air
- check the flight information (min fuel required, etc)
- order fuel if required
- make some more coffee
- watch the sunrise
- print latest wx, notams, etc
- do the preflight check
- check flight plan is in the system
- accept delivery of the VIP catering
- try the catering (very important!) this is about when the captain magically appears!
- load the remaining catering, newspapers, magazines and gifts
- start APU and condition the cabin
- greet the passenger(s)
- taxi out and FLY!!!
- talk about your weekend with your cockpit buddy
- land the plane at the luxury destination your passengers had to go to
- kindly thank the passenger for the large euro bills he sticks in your hand
- eat the catering the passengers haven't even touched
- fuel (or don't)
- pay the landing, handling, whatever..
- order the catering for the return flight
- grab the taxi to the hotel at the beach
- check in
- hang out at the pool and spend your per diems on cocktails
- text your friends "how awesome the weather is where your at"
- next day, enjoy breakfast, life in the sun, dinner, the works
(spend some of your "tip" on your wife, kids, etc)
- next day, get ready to fly back home
- check out of the hotel
- taxi back to the airport
- greet the handling agent who will take you to the plane
- open the door to let it air
- recheck the flight information (min fuel required, etc)
- order fuel if required
- have a coffee
- handling agent will provide you with: flight plan, latest wx, notams, etc
- do the preflight check
- accept delivery of the VIP catering
- try the catering - and there is the captain again! It's magic...
- load the remaining catering, newspapers, magazines and gifts
- start APU and condition the cabin
- greet the passenger(s)
- taxi out and FLY!!!
- talk about your trip with your cockpit buddy
- land the plane
- taxi to the private terminal
- accept another generous donation
- pay the bills
- secure the aircraft + restock the champagne (yes it's all gone, again)
- drive home
- distribute the presents
enjoy the rest of the day, it's only 14:00

Sure, I didn't make as much as my Easy Jet, Netjet, whatever jet friends, but I guarantee you I had a lot more fun!

Ofcourse, I also had problems:
- small company, so you have no union: you could have long days (18 hours duty) with a less than minimum rest period, followed by another 18 hours duty (for example) -> you don't like it? Well, you can leave if you want to...
- finally get home after 5 days of heavy duty (multi sectors - business people) busting all sorts of regulations, but now you have 3 days off scheduled! Or not, you walk in the door and are called, sms-ed, emailed, etc to come back to the plane asap for another duty period!
If you prefer to go on that short trip you had planned with your family, well you can leave if you want to....

Anyway you get the point...

So, I finally got fed up with the situation and decided to give it all up for a chance to fly bigger jets... but as I mentioned, the grass always LOOKS greaner... Different company, different rules, schedules, still busting minimum rest, no consecutive off days, no tips, no nice hotels, no, no, no ....

The PERFECT job DOESN'T EXIST!!! If you get a job where more than 75% of the days you are enjoying yourself A LOT, then stick with it!!

The grass is always greener, so forget about that IT job! (unless you have to)

Hope you all feel better?

[Artie Fufkin]

I can now say I actually miss flying for a living and if you ask me where I want to spend the next 30 years, well down route in a hotel is prefereable to 9-5 in the Office.

A very good point.

I have personally noted that most of the berators of this profession usually have no experience of the horrors of what working life is like for most people. I used to work in an office and hated it. I've been flying professionally for nearly 5 years and haven't had a single day where I haven't thought "I'm the luckiest guy alive". There are huge T&C issues at work, but I know the grass is greener at only a very select few employers, and even then, probably not for very much longer.

The dream of living in your home town, with your employer of choice, on your fleet of choice, earning a fantastic salary with perks, all training paid for you by your employer, getting home in time to tuck the kids in every night and early prospects of command will happen for no one.

[stefair]

I fully understand jobs like that are pretty rare but they do exist and there will always be companies offering above average packages. Admittedly, not everyone is going to make it into outfits like that:

Guy I recently talked to, 737 skipper working in central Europe, part time, six months of work last year and I bet he still got five grand a months after taxes.

Another guy I went to uni with now flying for a European flag carrier, in his mid-twenties, building his first house with pool and other gadgets. According to him he's making so much dough that he's finding it hard to spend all.

Like with every other profession: There are bad jobs. There are good jobs. And there are great jobs.

As one guy said earlier, be grateful you get to live and fly for a living in western Europe, a place in peace and, after all, let's face it, prosperity. 95 percent of the world population do not have that...

[niksmathew24]

Silvercare

Code:

Enjoy what you have and stop crying. 
During free time try to fight to improve this world and fight for justice.

There are many who does that happily.

[Squeezebox55]

Aviation has not been kind to me and to be honest I would walk in an instant if only I had another career marked out as plan B.
Where does it go wrong? Well simple really: The A380 is not the biggest thing in the air these days; the unbelievable size of the egos of so many is!
There are no supermen, no modern day heros. It is a job. It is how we earn our living. Loose the ego and it could be the best job in the world?
In my career I have met some very nice people. I have also met an awful lot of the nastiest you could ever hope not to meet. Unfortunately the latter heavily outweigh the former.
And BTW why why why in these threads is our job ALWAYS compared to a 9-5 office job? Don't you see that there is a mirriad of other things to do in life that are interesting, rewarding, challenging and fulfilling that will provide security, progressment and a nice pension at the end that don't entail sitting in an office for 40 hours a week?
I only wish I had seen that 30 years ago!

[silvercare]

There are many who does that happily.

in that case my thumb up gentleman

try the catering (very important!)

Like in the middle age ! Taste the king's meal before he starts to eat

[embryonic]

narcisistic egotistic maniacs.......

Squeeze box is dead right, if pilots just dropped the whole image thing, stopped being arse holes and stopped conforming to what they think are the normal sadistic, narcisistic standards in the industry, it would make for a much better working envirnoment. Dont get me wrong, I have equally met some great people who have been very helpful and would not have succeeded without their help. The others Im afraid are sad narcissists whos mothers never picked them up when they cried as children, and their nappies were never changed !

[flash8]

After eight years in the industry I decided to get out. And let me tell you never a better decision have I ever made.

Although not that young any more, and with no particular skills outside of flying I look forward to what the future holds and have already started making plans based on a consistent long-term outlook.

I agree with many posters. Unless you are experienced enough for a DEC or are a 200hr wunderkid with 20K+ you are scr*wed. I have mates out of work with 3K hours on the 737 - one has just signed on (again!). And a DEC? They will scr*w on the T&Cs royally... anywhere... the whole industry is going to the dogs.

I recently read that Eaglejet are now offering P2F LHS 744. That really does say it all. How long before it is commonplace that any Tom, Dick or Harriet can show a cheque in exchange for a command?

I would ingrain that into your minds very deeply. Because that thin edge of a wedge has suddenly become a lot thicker....

Bring back and make mandatory the 700 hour route for everyone.. thats my solution.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Initail vector's "weekend in the life of" sounds great until you realise that

- watch the sunrise

is number 9 on his list of events after "wake up".

What's more kids, if you end up at sleazyjet or the likes, watching the sunrise will feature at around about daily event number 14 for five days on the trot! Ray Bans at the ready, it's RNFR, as Slash would say

[gtseraf]

interesting to see that Captains are not being paid extra to hold the hands of the low time P2F drivers. So, all ranks are being screwed.

[Northern Highflyer]

I don’t see anyone crying about his lot, just merely expressing frustration at the lack of a structured career path. It does seem more and more that cash rules over experience.

Cabinready, your frustrations are the same as those of many a low houred pilot, and not all low houred guys are 20 years old, or even 30. I started in 2001 at the wrong side of 25, completing it in 2005. During that time the P4TR, P2F beast seemed to get a strong foothold in the industry. The old route of working your way through the system was the big draw for me and I was happy to serve my time at the bottom and to experience some challenging and fun flying. That particular rug was well and truly pulled from under my feet as the P4TR, P2F craze took hold.

Guys I know who had gone the instructor route soon realised that the £6000 outlay and many hours circuit bashing for poor wages wasn’t getting them onto the next rung of the ladder. Even turboprop outfits were starting to ask for cash up front for the type rating, in return for a meagre salary. This was bad enough in itself, but the progression from TP to jet involved coughing up yet again for another type rating as the experience gained again seemed to count for nothing. In the end. everyone I know (except one) who did the FI route had to eventually pay for a type rating in order to move on.

So the structured career path of the traditional hour building route has been replaced by, pay to be an FI, then pay for a turbopropTR, then pay again for a jet TR. No wonder people are short circuiting straight onto jets, in the long run it saves cash. As for me, this whole pay to work thing is out of my league, so I am back in my old job, still thinking of what might have been, but at least I can afford to live. Who knows, the industry may all change and I might get a second chance, but I won’t be holding my breath.

[initial vector]

Pilots' morale

Sorry "Time Traveller", you are right -> I was attempting to boost the forum's morale...

Indeed "BitMoreRightRudder" has a point, number 9 is "watch the sunrise" and he is right that Easy's pilots are already on their second leg of the day by the time they get to enjoy the sunrise. However, as you read my point 2, the lady at the bakery had started work before I even got up...
How about doctors? You think these guys start their careers driving to work in a Ferrari? They work 72 hour shifts with little to no sleep - and they studied for 6 years and spent 100K up to 250K for their educations...

There are many examples out there of worse T&C's where people don't even like the work their are doing! Sure we get paid crap and work till we drop, but at least we like what we're doing! If not, DON'T DO IT! There are many jobs out there if you prefer to earn more...
If you want to be a pilot AND have good T&C's, then start your own airline! Just let me know where to send my application...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

If you want to be a pilot AND have good T&C's, then start your own airline!

Sure we get paid crap and work till we drop, but at least we like what we're doing! If not, DON'T DO IT!

Are you being serious? This is the sort of sentiment that the beancounters and airline managers the world over are longing to hear. I can appreciate you enjoy the job you are in at the moment and that certain elements make it worthwhile in your eyes. On some points I agree with you.

Commercial flying is a professional position of responsibility that requires a huge financial and personal commitment to enter into, and one that SHOULD offer a combination of a sustainable lifestyle and a pay package that acknowledges the skill, expertise and responsibilty required of all of us. Many people seem to enter this job thinking that a love of "flying" will get them through a 35/40 year career and that they are entering an exclusive "club", that professional flying is some sort of dream lifestyle. It's just a job. No more no less. Time off work and pay in your pocket quickly overtakes admiration of the sunrise on your list of priorities.

You are saying that it is impossible to achieve this as a pilot, that as a group we are not worth it, and as long as those newcomers joining our ranks think as you do and continue to accept ever decreasing entry level T&Cs then there is only one way for our profession to go.

[cavortingcheetah]

'Commercial flying is a professional position of responsibility that requires a huge financial and personal commitment to enter into,'

As a question without an argument attached to it, why should a newly qualified pilot have any greater expectation in life than the poor soul who has worked his way through university and then comes out with a BA after four years and a few tens of thousands of dollars down the drain?
I sometimes think that the greatest legacy the older pilots living today could leave for the generations of starry eyed boy wonders to come is to trash aviation to such a destructive extent that in twenty years time there will be no pilots coming through training. That at least might ensure that some grand child of a pilot living today would have a better chance of finding a job controlling the computer of whatever passes for an aircraft in those days in the future.

[Mikehotel152]

I sympathise with anybody who finds their job unpleasant or feels trapped due to their personal circumstances. Whether you're flying for a living or working as an estate agent, if you don't get up in the morning with any enthusiasm for your job you have got to reevaluate your life. You only live once.

I was incredibly lucky to be able to make a career change, ironically, into aviation from what others would perceive as a safe and well paid career. I could only make that leap because of a very supportive wife and the financial security that comes from that earlier career. It wasn't Daddy's money that paid for me to get the RHS of a jet. It was my money. And I'm not 20, I'm in my thirties!

That said, I do think the locos have played a huge part in ruining terms and conditions for the industry. In some cases, it's about time that Airlines are forced to live in the real world and cease paying extraordinary wages for part time work. Sadly, the bean-counters don't know where to stop, have no morals, and we'll all end up suffering.

I do take exception to some of the comments about inexperienced FOs flying for the locos. Believe it or not, an eager, fully qualified and well trained low hour FO is capable of flying a modern jet aircraft in a professional and safe manner without burdening the Captain.

[Wingtip66]

Well, guys that is nice to here all the bla bla bla about flying...but what has happend the last past 10 years all the low costs airlines have really made a pilot life worser then it was before and our reputation went down...who does not see this is either blind or on cloud No.7 with pink sunglases.
Flying this or that airplane does not matter it is yourself that matters and you are the one who makes decısıons for your lıfe inclouding to I wanna fly Jar 25 Jets or say on smaller ones....Guys I can tell you I have also seen bad and very bad days and even days were I said that all this is not worth...but after a short period I came over it and could motivate myself to make even a bigger step forward.
That is what counts gentlemen and that is what big airlines want to see in a character of yours.
I am also close to tears when I talk to my small son on Skype, because Daddy ıs workıng far away from home, but who else brıngs ın a shıtload of money to support them at home.....well there are good thıngs and bad thıngs...but you fınd them in every other job as well and still do we have a great job.....be crıtıcal to your job and have a lıfe....flying is not everythıng !

Happy Landıngs to all of you!!

Wıngtıp66

[Mikehotel152]

are we to assume you too are fuelling the P2F frenzy that's resulted in awful Terms and Conditions for the entire industry?

In other words, how is your salary?

No. I have never paid to fly. I did, however, self-fund my type rating because the only job available to me in the already industry - which I guess must be your fault because I have only just arrived on the scene - was with a company who requires new FOs to pay for their own ratings.

My salary isn't . I'm earning the same in my first year as a commercial pilot as I was earning as a Solicitor. It's not great but I'm doing what I've always wanted to do, I enjoy my job, and I can now support my family without coming home every night hating my 9-5 job.

P2F and SSTRs are here to stay. You can't blame me or anyone who joins the aviation industry in the future with diminishing terms and conditions. If you were joining the industry now you would be in the same crappy boat.