Job Security - Which airlines?
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Thankyou Beak.
Some of the advice recieved on this forum is invaluable and massively appreciated. Your responses give me a lot to think about. I never thought for a second that the RAF/NAVY would be a walk in the park. The fact that its so difficult makes me want to do it more. However, at the same time I need to be realistic and think things through thoroughly before making any decisions.
No matter which route I choose, it appears things are far from straight forward when choosing a career a pilot eh!
If this is the case then why do airlines such as Virgin Atlantic prefer to employ military trained pilots?
"Nearly There" I also appreciate your comments. Im glad people like yourself and "Bead" can relate to my situation and naivity. Hopefully in 10-15 years time from now, ill be in your position offering advice to people similar to myself!
How long does selection take to when initially applying to the RAF/NAVY? And for what reason did the military pilots not complete training? By choice or by failure?
Thanks guys!
Some of the advice recieved on this forum is invaluable and massively appreciated. Your responses give me a lot to think about. I never thought for a second that the RAF/NAVY would be a walk in the park. The fact that its so difficult makes me want to do it more. However, at the same time I need to be realistic and think things through thoroughly before making any decisions.
No matter which route I choose, it appears things are far from straight forward when choosing a career a pilot eh!
Being an incredible pilot, military trained does not mean you'll be a good airline pilot. I have met several military pilots from Lynx, Chinook and Merlin backgrounds, through to KC135, VC10 through to Harrier, Tornado and Hawk pilots all who have achieved their commercial licences and still cannot attain an airline flying job. Some are instructing. One did that for a few months and was bored out of his mind and left flying all together.
"Nearly There" I also appreciate your comments. Im glad people like yourself and "Bead" can relate to my situation and naivity. Hopefully in 10-15 years time from now, ill be in your position offering advice to people similar to myself!
How long does selection take to when initially applying to the RAF/NAVY? And for what reason did the military pilots not complete training? By choice or by failure?
Thanks guys!
Look. Forget the military. At 22 you appear to know not the first thing about it. Its therefore massively massively unlikely that you'd pass selection, never mind training. Decades ago when I went to Biggin Hill (that dates me!) to OASC for RAF pilot selection there were 2000 applicants for every job. Since then the RAF has shrunk by more than half but I doubt interest from Wannabes has...
I know its startling for someone to be blunt these days and call a spade a freaking shovel but you've got no chance of a military pilot career so don't waste your time. You're not even close to being cold.
That's not being nasty. Its just boiling off the - go for it - bull**** and getting down to the truth.
Your career options are:
1) Pay for a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + 737 type rating and join Ryanair for 6 months before going to Brookfield, or,
2) Get a PPL and enjoy recreational flying whilst doing something sensible like being a dentist, having a social life, wife, family and outside interests.
Really.
WWW
I know its startling for someone to be blunt these days and call a spade a freaking shovel but you've got no chance of a military pilot career so don't waste your time. You're not even close to being cold.
That's not being nasty. Its just boiling off the - go for it - bull**** and getting down to the truth.
Your career options are:
1) Pay for a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + 737 type rating and join Ryanair for 6 months before going to Brookfield, or,
2) Get a PPL and enjoy recreational flying whilst doing something sensible like being a dentist, having a social life, wife, family and outside interests.
Really.
WWW
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Hopefully in 10-15 years time from now
I have actually passed the selections for a couple of the forces as a pilot. The selection doesn't take a very long time at all, the great thing about the whole process too is that they will happily give you a chance if you meet the minimum requirements. You'll need to do FATs - Flying Aptitude Tests which assess you as a Pilot, Observer/Navigator and ATC. If you pass those you'll do a medical. You'll then also need to do the relevant officer selection which varies between 2 stages for the Army, 1 stage for the RN and 1 stage I believe for the RAF. Passing all of these is just the beginning however. The early training isn't too tough but it very quickly gets ramped up. Fancy flying at a couple of hundred feet at night under wires in night goggles? These guys and girls are awesome. Don't discount the Army as a flying option either.
If this is the case then why do airlines such as Virgin Atlantic prefer to employ military trained pilots?
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Look. Forget the military
You have nothing to lose by trying. Actually joining however is a different story.
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funkyt111
As one who has been flying in both the Military (22 years) and Commercial Airline world (19 years) with over 12,000 hours I do feel I can comment.
The service flying is not just being a pilot but being a serving member of the Armed forces with all that goes with it including accepting the risk to life and limb - to say nothing of the restrictions that the Service life places upon you.
Being a commercial pilot is driving an aircraft from A to B and managing the sytems and crew to ensure it is done efficiently and safely as possible. Haiving done it for a long time there are the daily variations but in the main it can become routine. The only career progression is towards training and /or management but takes a while to acheive. The life it brings with it the responsibility for those you carry and work with. There is less restriction, but an equal amount of disruption, to your lifestyle.
Given some of your responses above I agree with WWW that there is little chance of you beating the dedicated and focussed applicants to become a military pilot. It is a very specialised recruitment. As to your original post, the Military can be cut at a whim and no doubt the Future Carrier will be a casualty in the next couple of years with a reduction in pilot numbers.
The commercial flying recruitment at the moment is dire. The commercial world tends to be cyclical and at the moment it is bouncing along the bottom. Airlines are suffering and there will no doubt be casualties there also. In the majority of cases (but not all) Airlines work on seniority based on joining date so job security can either be based on seniority or meritocracy. Either way you are as good as your last check-ride.
Take your choice - but listen to what others have said before jumping into what is obviously the unknown for you.
HWB
As one who has been flying in both the Military (22 years) and Commercial Airline world (19 years) with over 12,000 hours I do feel I can comment.
The service flying is not just being a pilot but being a serving member of the Armed forces with all that goes with it including accepting the risk to life and limb - to say nothing of the restrictions that the Service life places upon you.
Being a commercial pilot is driving an aircraft from A to B and managing the sytems and crew to ensure it is done efficiently and safely as possible. Haiving done it for a long time there are the daily variations but in the main it can become routine. The only career progression is towards training and /or management but takes a while to acheive. The life it brings with it the responsibility for those you carry and work with. There is less restriction, but an equal amount of disruption, to your lifestyle.
Given some of your responses above I agree with WWW that there is little chance of you beating the dedicated and focussed applicants to become a military pilot. It is a very specialised recruitment. As to your original post, the Military can be cut at a whim and no doubt the Future Carrier will be a casualty in the next couple of years with a reduction in pilot numbers.
The commercial flying recruitment at the moment is dire. The commercial world tends to be cyclical and at the moment it is bouncing along the bottom. Airlines are suffering and there will no doubt be casualties there also. In the majority of cases (but not all) Airlines work on seniority based on joining date so job security can either be based on seniority or meritocracy. Either way you are as good as your last check-ride.
Take your choice - but listen to what others have said before jumping into what is obviously the unknown for you.
HWB
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I don't see how you can make judgements about my potential based on a few posts on a pilots forum. You have no idea about me, who I am, my education, my personality. Fair enough my knowledge of the military is some what limited, but before I apply to the military I guarantee that I'll know all there is to know about the forces and I'll be more prepared than I have for anything in my life. I have 2-3 years to prepare....I am at the moment, in no position to even think about applying. But when I do, Ill be as focused as any other applicant.
But Halfwayback and Beak I appreciate your post and will take on board what you have said.
But Halfwayback and Beak I appreciate your post and will take on board what you have said.
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I'm not sure that is the case.
I know a number of folk that were not British but came from Commonwealth countries who served, and are serving, in the British Armed forces.
HWB
I know a number of folk that were not British but came from Commonwealth countries who served, and are serving, in the British Armed forces.
HWB
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Funky,
Goodluck with your endeavours - I don't know if anyone has said this but if you do manage to get in the military there is a good chance you will get killed or have to kill.Don't see it as a route to a commercial licence.
Some airlines still have a bias towards ex-military, mine doesn't.Its true to say the ex-mil guys are generally very accomplished pilots, however these skills are not called for that often in modern airliners.Airlines want to right sort of people - that is what the prime requirement is.
'Passion' doesn't really come into it, if you want to keep that 'passion' get a PPL, fly for fun and become a dentist (job security !).
Goodluck with your endeavours - I don't know if anyone has said this but if you do manage to get in the military there is a good chance you will get killed or have to kill.Don't see it as a route to a commercial licence.
Some airlines still have a bias towards ex-military, mine doesn't.Its true to say the ex-mil guys are generally very accomplished pilots, however these skills are not called for that often in modern airliners.Airlines want to right sort of people - that is what the prime requirement is.
'Passion' doesn't really come into it, if you want to keep that 'passion' get a PPL, fly for fun and become a dentist (job security !).
Just my 2 pence:
S88
- Don't pursue the military route unless your heart is set on a career in the forces. Although attending the assessment process will offer you some assessment experience you'll only be wasting your time and the time of the lovely people at Her Majesty's flying club. Don't fool yourself into following something you don't want to follow. If you're hearts not in it there's usually no point in doing it.
- (assuming you haven't already) Get yourself a nice degree totally un-related to aviation which makes you a professional in something. It's always good to have something you can fall back on! Yeah, it'll add about 20K to your debts but who knows, the better jobs you'll be able to get because of it may offer you more in remuneration in the long run.
- (assuming you haven't already) Get your PPL! You may find it enough to sooth your hard-on for flying. If not, pursue the commercial route once you've done the degree. If you don't have the money to learn to fly light aircraft then try and find a gliding club. Believe it or not it's just like real flying but without the hefty price tag. (sarcasm)
- Continue to take criticism so well on these forums. I admire your calm forum manner!
S88
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Guys,
I can't tell you how much your responses are appreciated! Thankyou for the advice. Theres a lot about the military. So, Im going to spend the next 2-3 years doing some thorough research and speaking to some military pilots to make sure its 110% for me. I also need to make sure I agree with the ethics behind the forces. If I have any doubts about anything then I won't apply.
I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am.
After reading several posts on this forum, I noticed aspiring young pilots are constantly being advised to study for a degree in a subject un-related to aviation. However, if I gained a degree in aviation technology with pilot studies, then surely there are other good careers in the aviation industry to fall back if my commercial airline career was unsuccessful? At least this way I'll still have a career in an subject area have a MASSIVE interest in....aviation.
Cheers! Ive learnt from past experience that hostility and insolence gets you know where.
I can't tell you how much your responses are appreciated! Thankyou for the advice. Theres a lot about the military. So, Im going to spend the next 2-3 years doing some thorough research and speaking to some military pilots to make sure its 110% for me. I also need to make sure I agree with the ethics behind the forces. If I have any doubts about anything then I won't apply.
.......there is a good chance you will get killed or have to kill.Don't see it as a route to a commercial licence
(assuming you haven't already) Get yourself a nice degree totally un-related to aviation which makes you a professional in something. It's always good to have something you can fall back on! Yeah, it'll add about 20K to your debts but who knows, the better jobs you'll be able to get because of it may offer you more in remuneration in the long run.
Continue to take criticism so well on these forums. I admire your calm forum manner!
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"So, Im going to spend the next 2-3 years doing some thorough research and speaking to some military pilots to make sure its 110% for me"
I haven't checked it for a while but notice the RAF have now raised their age limit to 25. Assuming your age on your PPRUNE account is correct this won't leave you with much time to get yourself in - bearing in mind that this age is when you must be in IOT and there can be up to a years wait between a successful application and commencement of IOT.
With several close friends in the military - my advice would be think very carefully before applying. The military isn't a job. It's a way of life. As a military pilot you are an officer first and a pilot second. You can expect to spend as much time on the ground doing secondary duties/adventure training etc as you can strapped to your aircraft. If you want to spend your career sat in an aeroplane then go down the civi route. If you are an outdoors and active person then perhaps the military is the right road to go down.
One line you wrote does worry me;
"I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am."
At 22 the RAF will expect you to have a keen interest in current affairs and their operations, this shows a severe lack in your overall understanding of the risks of a flying career - particularly in the military. Every pilot puts their life on the line every time they fly. An unavoidable bird strike can bring down a 777 just as easily as an RPG can bring down a Chinook. Yes frontline flying will increase the risks in a big way but you need to show you have your eyes open as to what you are going to be risking.Pilots don't have to be on the front line to run the risk of being killed. This has sadly been proven several times this year. When you are talking about signing up to a job where you may well be in a position where you have to kill somebody, watch a friend be killed, or be killed yourself, you can't really afford to be naive. Some people may not think about it on a day to day basis - I'd imagine that many people don't (the same as we get in a car every day and simply expect to arrive at point B without rolling the car onto it's roof and killing an innocent family in the process) but it is important that you are aware of what might happen as likely or unlikely as it is.
Sorry about the long winded post! As to what you decide to do -only you can decide what is best for you, you might choose to follow some advice from here but ultimately the decision has to be yours. You never know until you try and all that.
I wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make.
I haven't checked it for a while but notice the RAF have now raised their age limit to 25. Assuming your age on your PPRUNE account is correct this won't leave you with much time to get yourself in - bearing in mind that this age is when you must be in IOT and there can be up to a years wait between a successful application and commencement of IOT.
With several close friends in the military - my advice would be think very carefully before applying. The military isn't a job. It's a way of life. As a military pilot you are an officer first and a pilot second. You can expect to spend as much time on the ground doing secondary duties/adventure training etc as you can strapped to your aircraft. If you want to spend your career sat in an aeroplane then go down the civi route. If you are an outdoors and active person then perhaps the military is the right road to go down.
One line you wrote does worry me;
"I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am."
At 22 the RAF will expect you to have a keen interest in current affairs and their operations, this shows a severe lack in your overall understanding of the risks of a flying career - particularly in the military. Every pilot puts their life on the line every time they fly. An unavoidable bird strike can bring down a 777 just as easily as an RPG can bring down a Chinook. Yes frontline flying will increase the risks in a big way but you need to show you have your eyes open as to what you are going to be risking.Pilots don't have to be on the front line to run the risk of being killed. This has sadly been proven several times this year. When you are talking about signing up to a job where you may well be in a position where you have to kill somebody, watch a friend be killed, or be killed yourself, you can't really afford to be naive. Some people may not think about it on a day to day basis - I'd imagine that many people don't (the same as we get in a car every day and simply expect to arrive at point B without rolling the car onto it's roof and killing an innocent family in the process) but it is important that you are aware of what might happen as likely or unlikely as it is.
Sorry about the long winded post! As to what you decide to do -only you can decide what is best for you, you might choose to follow some advice from here but ultimately the decision has to be yours. You never know until you try and all that.
I wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make.
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I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am.
Fatal accidents are thankfully rare, but they are certainly not as rare as operating a modern, commercial jet from A to B.
Google is your friend - have a look at the losses seen in the past 10 years alone.
However, if I gained a degree in aviation technology with pilot studies, then surely there are other good careers in the aviation industry to fall back if my commercial airline career was unsuccessful?
If you heart is set solely on aviation and you have the financial means, a degree is unecessary (but should still be considered if you want the experience and the chance to stretch you mind at some universities).
I think some people above are being a little fanciful that people do not use the military as a means to get into aviation that they could not otherwise achieve by other means. In the not so distant past, the RAF offered short service commissions, and fully intended to train people fully only to let them return to the civilian world. Of course, times change, and morally the training costs a great deal. The elephant in the room is of course the fact that people joining the military do indeed join solely to fly (whatever the RAF want), and do indeed leave in large numbers at their 16/38 point, or PVR earlier.
One would not be wise, however, to admit to such a strategy, even if it is logical.
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I know a number of folk that were not British but came from Commonwealth countries who served, and are serving, in the British Armed forces.
Having said that you will note there are two New Zealanders in the Red Arrows. They however were fast jet pilots before they came to the RAF. So there are exceptions.
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Well....RAF crashes don't appear to be that rare at all. I stumbled across this document...
http://www.tornado-data.com/Producti...ash%20Data.pdf
Very much agreed. However I have no intention of applying for 2-3 years and as Ive said above I know for certain i'll be just as (if not more) prepared than the guy next to me. Its obvious that going into any one of the armed forces, you have to know there is a higher risk of being killed than any other career. To not think this would not be naive...it would damn right stupid.
If I 110% decided that the RAF/NAVY was for me then the risk of being killed would not influence my decision.
I spoke with the RAF careers office recently and they explained that you have to be IOT before your 26th birthday. As for the navy, you have to be IOT before your 27th birthday.
Deep stall,.
"The long winded" reply was very informative and appreciated. So don't worry
T5 Mole,
I was 90% applying to leeds univesity, liverpool university and salford university to study aviation tech with pilot studies. It appears now this may not be the best thing to do! I am now currently left in a dilemma and have some serious thinking to do and fast! Time isn't on my side!
Thanks for the replys guys.
Hopefully soon, I can speak with some RAF/NAVY pilots face to face.
http://www.tornado-data.com/Producti...ash%20Data.pdf
When you are talking about signing up to a job where you may well be in a position where you have to kill somebody, watch a friend be killed, or be killed yourself, you can't really afford to be naive.
If I 110% decided that the RAF/NAVY was for me then the risk of being killed would not influence my decision.
I haven't checked it for a while but notice the RAF have now raised their age limit to 25. Assuming your age on your PPRUNE account is correct this won't leave you with much time to get yourself in - bearing in mind that this age is when you must be in IOT and there can be up to a years wait between a successful application and commencement of IOT.
Deep stall,.
"The long winded" reply was very informative and appreciated. So don't worry
T5 Mole,
I was 90% applying to leeds univesity, liverpool university and salford university to study aviation tech with pilot studies. It appears now this may not be the best thing to do! I am now currently left in a dilemma and have some serious thinking to do and fast! Time isn't on my side!
Thanks for the replys guys.
Hopefully soon, I can speak with some RAF/NAVY pilots face to face.
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While at Uni, whatever you're studying, join the University Air Squadron (or whatever they're calling it these days). You'll soon find out whether you're fit for the RAF and by extension the other Forces. Either way, make your mind up and do it fast, or the opportunities will have passed you by and with some opportunities there are no second chances.
I developed stereoscopic vision this summer. At 32, it's come far too late for me to even think about join Her Majesty's Flying Club. The idea that my not having done so is because I was just not trying hard enough is a real slap in the face, given that flying was all I ever wanted to do from the first time I looked up. I will learn, I will fly, even if it takes me another thirty years - but I'll be paying for it with money rather than with service.
I developed stereoscopic vision this summer. At 32, it's come far too late for me to even think about join Her Majesty's Flying Club. The idea that my not having done so is because I was just not trying hard enough is a real slap in the face, given that flying was all I ever wanted to do from the first time I looked up. I will learn, I will fly, even if it takes me another thirty years - but I'll be paying for it with money rather than with service.
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ligibility
To join a UAS you will become a member of the RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAF(VR)). Membership entitles you to fly in military aircraft and requires that you satisfy age, education and nationality requirements. Such requirements are:
1. Older that 17.5 years on joining and younger than 23.5 years on graduation.
2. An undergraduate with 2 A-levels or equivalent studying for a full-time degree with 2 academic years remaining before graduation.
3. A British National (or dependent territory).
4. Taller than 5'6" (if female) and shorter than 6'2"
There are also various other medical requirements that applicants must satisfy - for more information about these either contact the Squadron or ask at the Freshers Fayre.
I noticed it says you need to be younger than 23.5 years on graduation? Do you think this has not been updated yet since the max age of the airfoce has now gone up to 25 years or??
Also, how does the air squadron work? Does it have relationships with all the forces or just the RAF?
Regards
Funky
To join a UAS you will become a member of the RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAF(VR)). Membership entitles you to fly in military aircraft and requires that you satisfy age, education and nationality requirements. Such requirements are:
1. Older that 17.5 years on joining and younger than 23.5 years on graduation.
2. An undergraduate with 2 A-levels or equivalent studying for a full-time degree with 2 academic years remaining before graduation.
3. A British National (or dependent territory).
4. Taller than 5'6" (if female) and shorter than 6'2"
There are also various other medical requirements that applicants must satisfy - for more information about these either contact the Squadron or ask at the Freshers Fayre.
I noticed it says you need to be younger than 23.5 years on graduation? Do you think this has not been updated yet since the max age of the airfoce has now gone up to 25 years or??
Also, how does the air squadron work? Does it have relationships with all the forces or just the RAF?
Regards
Funky
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When you go up for RAF assessment you have to understand you are competing against people who have been focused on it since they were in nappies, been eating living breathing it as their sole ambition all their growing lives, done all the gliding and air training corps and every single forces lead-in club for youngsters like it was religion, been drilled in the way to get through the selection for years and probably already got a parent in the job. And not just a few of them, there are hundreds of them. And they are good - really good. Hands down the best ab initio students I ever flew with were the RAF Flying Scholarship cadets I taught back in the instructing days, of which several hundred cadets were selected each year and only a very small handful would ever make fast jet. The selection people can spot someone with commercial-airline aspirations from a thousand paces away.
And after all that - you are a SOLDIER first and a pilot very much second, don't kid yourself that it's anything other than what it is.
Save yourself the heartache and go buy tickets in the euro millions lottery mate, it's a more viable plan than your current one.
And after all that - you are a SOLDIER first and a pilot very much second, don't kid yourself that it's anything other than what it is.
Save yourself the heartache and go buy tickets in the euro millions lottery mate, it's a more viable plan than your current one.
Thank you for saving me the trouble Luke.
Whilst I encourage you to try to join the UAS be aware that you are up against people desperate to join who have been planning, arranging and preparing for the last decade and longer.
By asking:
You're making them wince; then sneer.
Do apply though.
You may be just the ticket and often they do look the find people that they otherwise would not. Whereas I was sponsored through A-levels and Uni as a RAF pilot and placed in UAS I have good friends who were not any of those things but now fly Typhoons. Really.
Its brusque but its true to say you have very little chance of succeeding with a military flying career.
Good luck - a hell of a lot more fun than the procedural Alicante arrival but a lot less well paid and a hell of a lot more dangerous.. Now in my 30's with children I wouldn't want to be a military pilot and I'm glad it didn't work out for me. As a route to commercial airline flying its a really really sh1te one that asks so much and gains you so little. The established wisdom espoused by most is woefully out of kilter with the modern airline recruitment practice.
Times change. Fast.
WWW
WWW
Whilst I encourage you to try to join the UAS be aware that you are up against people desperate to join who have been planning, arranging and preparing for the last decade and longer.
By asking:
Also, how does the air squadron work? Does it have relationships with all the forces or just the RAF?
Do apply though.
You may be just the ticket and often they do look the find people that they otherwise would not. Whereas I was sponsored through A-levels and Uni as a RAF pilot and placed in UAS I have good friends who were not any of those things but now fly Typhoons. Really.
Its brusque but its true to say you have very little chance of succeeding with a military flying career.
Good luck - a hell of a lot more fun than the procedural Alicante arrival but a lot less well paid and a hell of a lot more dangerous.. Now in my 30's with children I wouldn't want to be a military pilot and I'm glad it didn't work out for me. As a route to commercial airline flying its a really really sh1te one that asks so much and gains you so little. The established wisdom espoused by most is woefully out of kilter with the modern airline recruitment practice.
Times change. Fast.
WWW
WWW