CabAir and FlyBE Sponsorship-How are students doing now?
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Care to ellaborate Celtic Pilot?.... are you suggesting the details of Rio Scott's post are incorrect?.... or that the last batch of Flybe cadets were not told they could apply for jobs as cabin crew?.... or that the Tomson cadets weren't cast adrift? What about the last slug of Netjets cadets graduating from OAT... destined for years in a "holding pool"??
I think this thread is extremely important.... if those graduating on these so called "sponsored" schemes are not being offered jobs for whatever reason it is very very important to know before you sign on the dotted line and part with tens of thousands of pounds. And what does it mean for those not on the schemes??
I am not saying these schemes are not welcome just that there is a case to say the "job waiting at the end of the course" line is often over played by the FTO.
It would be foolish to not learn from the mistakes of those that have gone before.
The aviation industry really is a s**t to many of the people who work in it or aspire to work in it.
I think this thread is extremely important.... if those graduating on these so called "sponsored" schemes are not being offered jobs for whatever reason it is very very important to know before you sign on the dotted line and part with tens of thousands of pounds. And what does it mean for those not on the schemes??
I am not saying these schemes are not welcome just that there is a case to say the "job waiting at the end of the course" line is often over played by the FTO.
It would be foolish to not learn from the mistakes of those that have gone before.
The aviation industry really is a s**t to many of the people who work in it or aspire to work in it.
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Flight training be it sponsored, part sponsored, mentored or self sponsored is a pay your money take your chance business. It makes not a bit of difference what scheme you are on, an airline has to protect themselves and their bottom line. If unfortunately that means placing students in a hold pool or canning them all together they will do that.
Numerous schemes have fallen foul; BA cadets on a number of occasions, Thomson mentored schemes during the merger, Netjet schemes, CTC Easyjet schemes and now Flybe to name but a few.
If Rio Scot is correct which I am sure he/she is then the only hope for those guys is that recruitment begins again. In many of my previous posts I have stated that I am sure Flybe will begin recruitment again within 6 months and I still feel the same.
As for self sponsored students I realise that the back up of type rated pilots, sponsored and CTC cadets will cause a lul in recruitment even after things have started moving again. You have to continue to be proactive and not loose the faith things will improve, it took me 3.5 years of heart ache after self sponsoring but since then I have never looked back.
Roller
Numerous schemes have fallen foul; BA cadets on a number of occasions, Thomson mentored schemes during the merger, Netjet schemes, CTC Easyjet schemes and now Flybe to name but a few.
If Rio Scot is correct which I am sure he/she is then the only hope for those guys is that recruitment begins again. In many of my previous posts I have stated that I am sure Flybe will begin recruitment again within 6 months and I still feel the same.
As for self sponsored students I realise that the back up of type rated pilots, sponsored and CTC cadets will cause a lul in recruitment even after things have started moving again. You have to continue to be proactive and not loose the faith things will improve, it took me 3.5 years of heart ache after self sponsoring but since then I have never looked back.
Roller
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No sensible airline would ever offer sponsorship / mentorship with a cast-iron guaranteed job offer 14 months down the road. The industry changes way too quickly for that, and recruitment plans change accordingly. In Flybe's case, that means going from a requirement for 10-15 new FOs per month to zero (i.e. fully crewed) within the space of a few months. How is a training system with a lead-time of nearly 18 months supposed to cope with that? It's an unpalatable fact of life, but as Rollerboy says, it would not be the first time that cadets have finished training to discover there are no jobs waiting for them.
FTOs will always tell people that 'now is a great time to train' - they have an obvious interest in doing so. Airlines which sponsor (and there are precious few of them these days) will plan based on projections of the market 18 months down the road, with the caveat that those plans are always subject to change. For nearly a year now, those of us who actually work in the industry have been telling anyone who'll listen that this is an awful time to be training, and that the job market for 200hr CPLs (or MPLs) will be grim for at least the next 2 to 3 years. Is anyone really surprised that there are no jobs out there?
FTOs will always tell people that 'now is a great time to train' - they have an obvious interest in doing so. Airlines which sponsor (and there are precious few of them these days) will plan based on projections of the market 18 months down the road, with the caveat that those plans are always subject to change. For nearly a year now, those of us who actually work in the industry have been telling anyone who'll listen that this is an awful time to be training, and that the job market for 200hr CPLs (or MPLs) will be grim for at least the next 2 to 3 years. Is anyone really surprised that there are no jobs out there?
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We're not asking any airline to predict what tomorrow will be made of.
But when you offer a "mentored", "sponsored" or whatever bloody useless word you want to use, after having interviewed these candidates AND they are only 5 to 10 of them (which according to the given figures is less than what they usually need on a monthly basis when things work well), I just think and I maintain that it is an insult to all of them than offering anything else than what they f
ing paid and trained for.
I won't believe anyone who tells me than hiring 5 miserable chaps will make the company go bust. It's just a massive, unbearable exploitation of poor guys dreaming who simply can't see the entire truth because of the brightness of the catch...
BALPA is trying to get rid of Ryanair proslavery methods, they would be well advised to get an eye on these fake sponsorships.
But when you offer a "mentored", "sponsored" or whatever bloody useless word you want to use, after having interviewed these candidates AND they are only 5 to 10 of them (which according to the given figures is less than what they usually need on a monthly basis when things work well), I just think and I maintain that it is an insult to all of them than offering anything else than what they f
ing paid and trained for.I won't believe anyone who tells me than hiring 5 miserable chaps will make the company go bust. It's just a massive, unbearable exploitation of poor guys dreaming who simply can't see the entire truth because of the brightness of the catch...
BALPA is trying to get rid of Ryanair proslavery methods, they would be well advised to get an eye on these fake sponsorships.
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Hi,
8 friends of mine worked for Excel, all "sponsored" however all training agreement loans were in the cadets name. Excel went bust and the cadets kept all the debt.
Luckily all 8 have now got jobs elsewhere (all flying may I add!). I'd just look carefully at what you sign and and understand there is very little in the meaning of "sponsorship" these days!
Same goes with being in a holdpool! It isn't a job but just a short listing should "positions become available". I've been in a holdpool for almost 2yrs now. When I was in the pool I was offered something else (abliet not the best if you know what I mean) and took it! Glad I did tho, I'm still in the pool and talk to the company regularly and they see no recruitment until 2010 so I'm now 2/3yrs ahead of my piers with my career who decided to wait to see if something comes round!
If offered go for it it but just take the rose tinted specs of for a sec! Then you can put them back on and enjoy it!
Nothing in life is guarenteed except taxes and death and this cant be said more so than in aviation!
Kempus
8 friends of mine worked for Excel, all "sponsored" however all training agreement loans were in the cadets name. Excel went bust and the cadets kept all the debt.
Luckily all 8 have now got jobs elsewhere (all flying may I add!). I'd just look carefully at what you sign and and understand there is very little in the meaning of "sponsorship" these days!
Same goes with being in a holdpool! It isn't a job but just a short listing should "positions become available". I've been in a holdpool for almost 2yrs now. When I was in the pool I was offered something else (abliet not the best if you know what I mean) and took it! Glad I did tho, I'm still in the pool and talk to the company regularly and they see no recruitment until 2010 so I'm now 2/3yrs ahead of my piers with my career who decided to wait to see if something comes round!
If offered go for it it but just take the rose tinted specs of for a sec! Then you can put them back on and enjoy it!
Nothing in life is guarenteed except taxes and death and this cant be said more so than in aviation!
Kempus
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This is exactly why nobody should walk into a career in aviation without having done their research into the nature of the industry.
The current situation is no different whatsoever to the recruitment market post 9/11, and as this was only a matter of years ago, nobody can legitimately claim to be unaware of it.
Jobs for new graduates virtually disappeared overnight post 9/11 and the recruitment market remained that way for perhaps 18 months. Trainees and graduates were all saying exactly the same things then as you guys are saying now.
However, the market recovered incredibly rapidly, and led to the good times that were probably in full swing when most current trainees made the decision to start training.
Don't be too downhearted though. All is not lost. When general recruitment re-started in about 2003, the "starter" airlines lost huge numbers of pilots from both seats to the next level of airline up the food chain. This opened up large numbers of vacancies for newbies, as FOs either left, or took commands which were now vacant.
To illustrate my point, in early 2005, Flybe alone required an immediate intake of some 70 FOs to fill gaps created over the winter of 04/05. For those who question the wisdom of adding to the hold pool - a meagre 20 pilots if we are to believe earlier posts - how do you expect an airline to have short-notice access to 50+ pilots without a significant hold pool? 20 wouldn't be anything like enough.
The current situation is no different whatsoever to the recruitment market post 9/11, and as this was only a matter of years ago, nobody can legitimately claim to be unaware of it.
Jobs for new graduates virtually disappeared overnight post 9/11 and the recruitment market remained that way for perhaps 18 months. Trainees and graduates were all saying exactly the same things then as you guys are saying now.
However, the market recovered incredibly rapidly, and led to the good times that were probably in full swing when most current trainees made the decision to start training.
Don't be too downhearted though. All is not lost. When general recruitment re-started in about 2003, the "starter" airlines lost huge numbers of pilots from both seats to the next level of airline up the food chain. This opened up large numbers of vacancies for newbies, as FOs either left, or took commands which were now vacant.
To illustrate my point, in early 2005, Flybe alone required an immediate intake of some 70 FOs to fill gaps created over the winter of 04/05. For those who question the wisdom of adding to the hold pool - a meagre 20 pilots if we are to believe earlier posts - how do you expect an airline to have short-notice access to 50+ pilots without a significant hold pool? 20 wouldn't be anything like enough.
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CaptainCoin Message 14
Spot on CaptainCoin.
Your post sums up the situation in a nutshell.
OAA are predicting a twelve month or longer job placement wait for students finishing their courses this year.
I would say Flybe are about the only UK based airline who are making a semblance of a profit in these difficult times.
Spot on CaptainCoin.
Your post sums up the situation in a nutshell.
OAA are predicting a twelve month or longer job placement wait for students finishing their courses this year.
I would say Flybe are about the only UK based airline who are making a semblance of a profit in these difficult times.
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Flybe
Need to watch Flybe as BA have written down their investment
".... British Airways said in its results last week it has written off around 25 percent of the value of its stake in Flybe after reviewing the carrier's prospects....."
This is an independent assesment as BA have no axe to grind with Flybe. It is likley that Flybe will turn this pilot training scheme into a profit making machine as have Ryanair as they will be desperate for revenue in the near term
".... British Airways said in its results last week it has written off around 25 percent of the value of its stake in Flybe after reviewing the carrier's prospects....."
This is an independent assesment as BA have no axe to grind with Flybe. It is likley that Flybe will turn this pilot training scheme into a profit making machine as have Ryanair as they will be desperate for revenue in the near term
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Kempus said:
G-SXTY said:
If that is the case, then the question still remains - why is your airline still "sponsoring"? There are X-thousand hour pilots out there without jobs (and this will be the case for those 2-3 years you are talking about) so I highly doubt that the hold pool of ?20? is too much of a problem with these out-of-work pilots ready in a second (in reference to OttoThrottle's analogy from 2003)?
Airlines do not owe pilots anything - let alone 0hr cadets. So I maintain that Flybe do not even lose a penny on their schemes (even if their mentored cadets never actually get a job with Flybe).
I'm still in the pool and talk to the company regularly and they see no recruitment until 2010 so I'm now 2/3yrs ahead of my piers with my career who decided to wait to see if something comes round!
For nearly a year now, those of us who actually work in the industry have been telling anyone who'll listen that this is an awful time to be training, and that the job market for 200hr CPLs (or MPLs) will be grim for at least the next 2 to 3 years
Airlines do not owe pilots anything - let alone 0hr cadets. So I maintain that Flybe do not even lose a penny on their schemes (even if their mentored cadets never actually get a job with Flybe).
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Hi,
Sorry skyhighbird I should have stated that I was in a pool for another airline and not flybe but at my present company, everyone is asking why the hell are we still hiring, there isn't enough work for those already there!
kempus
Sorry skyhighbird I should have stated that I was in a pool for another airline and not flybe but at my present company, everyone is asking why the hell are we still hiring, there isn't enough work for those already there!
kempus
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With regard to FlyBe/ Cabair ab initio course;
What I have learned from this thread is,
The students who were accepted on the course, and who started training this year, will (most likely if the downturn is not over) be placed into a hold pool, with speculation on their priority against others. They may also be eligible to "apply" for cabin crew in order to stay with the airline and assist in paying back their loans.
The similar students who commenced training in Jan 2008 and are due to finish this year, will be placed into the hold pool. (bananaman2 - post 6). They also will be allowed to apply as cabin crew.
The similar students who commenced training in Jan 2007 and graduated last year have started flying with Flybe (Bananaman2 - post 6).
Thanks for the influx of information. Whilst it is not a pleasant situation, it is important to know how things are going with this scheme.
What I have learned from this thread is,
The students who were accepted on the course, and who started training this year, will (most likely if the downturn is not over) be placed into a hold pool, with speculation on their priority against others. They may also be eligible to "apply" for cabin crew in order to stay with the airline and assist in paying back their loans.
The similar students who commenced training in Jan 2008 and are due to finish this year, will be placed into the hold pool. (bananaman2 - post 6). They also will be allowed to apply as cabin crew.
The similar students who commenced training in Jan 2007 and graduated last year have started flying with Flybe (Bananaman2 - post 6).
Thanks for the influx of information. Whilst it is not a pleasant situation, it is important to know how things are going with this scheme.
