The Reality of OAA's Employment Statistics

[modern monkey]

Here are the latest stats from OAA's website:

GRADUATE JOBS 2008
[Last Updated: Wednesday 11th June 2008]



AIRLINETOTAL

AER LINGUS

2

AFRIQIYAH AIRWAYS

1

AIR GREENLAND

1

AIR SOUTHWEST

3

AMSTERDAM AIRLINES

1

BRITISH AIRWAYS

13

BRUSSELS AIRLINES

1

CITYJET

1

DHL

4

EASYJET

1

FLYBE

20

JETSTREAM EXECUTIVE

1

KLM

5

LONDON EXECUTIVE AVIATION

1

LUFTHANSA CITYLINE

1

RYANAIR

42

TIGER AIRWAYS

1

TRANSAVIA

2

TYROLEAN

1

VIRGIN NIGERIA

1

WIZZ AIR

1

TOTAL FOR 2008 104
lets have a look at these stats shall we.

1. 40% of their "graduates" have gone to Ryan Air! Not only have these people paid £63,000 for their training, when exactly the same training can be bought for under £40,000, they have also suffered the indignity of forking out around £25,000 to be screwed over by Michael O'Leary. Hardly something to be proud of is it OAA?

I can also tell you now that OAA would have had nothing to do with the students getting those jobs, so thats at least £23,000 thoroughly wasted by these unlucky 42 desperados.

2. How many of these jobs are with airlines that only accept nationals of their country or fluent speakers of a language which is not English? Id say around half, which would mean that Oxford is in fact failing to get jobs for British nationals, the people who make up the majority of OAAs customers.

3. Discounting the Ryan Air boys, that leaves 62 graduates who can claim to have been sucessfull in their job hunting up to half way through the year. That could be said to be around 120 / year. If I am right in my calculations, OAA churn out around 300 pilots a year? That means that there is around a 1 in 3 chance that you will be sucessful in finding a decent Airline job.

Doesn't make very good reading when you take away the OAA spin, does it?

So it looks like two conclusions can be drawn:

1. Pay OAA £63,000 for their course, and the most probable place you will end up is Ryan Air, forking out another £25,000 in the process and feeling like a complete chump.

or 2. You have around a 1 in 3 chance of finding a decent airline job if you choose not to go for Ryan Air. This probability will only get worse over the next year or so, as the airline industry slows down.

Still want to go?

[Juneau]

Are you going to provide comparable statistics for how many modular or other integrated FTO students (who will also have to pay for their TR) have secured employment with Ryanair in the same period? You can hardly blame OAA for the current market, but 42 'unlucky graduates' getting jobs in under six months is damn good if you ask me.

With some rather plain maths deriving a 1 in 3 chance of a 'decent' job, perhaps you'd like to enlighten us where those 42 souls should have gone?

[Juneau]

But it isn't a 1 in 2 chance, is it? 104 placements in 23 weeks equals 235 placements per year. If there are 240 students, as you estimate, that's 98% employment.

Am I missing something?

[stuzzy1980]

'there a lies, damned lies, and then statistics!'

your interpretation of their employment figures makes interesting reading. As a prospective student on their APP course (or CTC icp) I doesn't exactly fill my head with positive thoughts!

Yes, with oil prices et al, the future for newly qualified pilots is not quite as rosy. Surely this makes the decision to train with (arguably) one of the best providers will furnish you with the best chances of employment, despite the added costs of the course?

I have been led to believe that taking the integrated route is the route most prefered by airline companies. So why not take the hit, and speculate to accumulate?

What are the statistics for modular route students, or people that have moved about during their training? Surely these statisics would make even more depressing reading!!!!?????????

Also, Oxford only publish the students that have actively contacted them to inform them of their new-found employment.....there is no obligation to do so.

I have a 747 captain as a friend, and he can't praise the likes of OAA and CTC enough.............................

Also the cost of OAA is more like 75k!

Im not trying to be argumentative here, and im trying not to sound like ive swallowed a 'OAA is great pill' , about to make some huge decisions in my life, and appreciate the positive and negative to every possiblilty........

[BerksFlyer]

It's just a matter of timing really. I have no doubt that if the economic climate were looking better the bulk of the good jobs would have gone to people from the likes of OAA. Unfortunately that's the way it is.

However, if you're prepared to work your way up by gaining experience with aircraft other than jets (which will make you a better pilot) and companies other than airlines, having a lot of fun doing so (afterall, it is flying and that's what we love isn't it?), then there is no reason to spend a big premium with the likes of OAA. This also means cheaper training, which means less debt, which means no rush to find a high paying jet job, which means less pressure, which means more fun flying.

Take your pick and pay your money, though be sure how much of that money charged is based on training and how much is based on marketing claims.

[99jolegg]

People who usually use the argument that "OAA arguments only end up at Ryanair anyway, so why bother paying integrated prices when you could pay modular prices and do the same thing" ignore the idea that maybe with the slow down in cadet uptake, integrated students from OAA, CTC, FTE and Cabair might take a lot of the places available so going modular might not be the simple route to RYR that people think.

Another point of view.

[stuzzy1980]

absolutely dj. good luck to all. At the end of the day, getting a job is what its all about. And there is more than one way to skin a cat!!!

If only we had a magic crystal ball.....................

[Kempus]

Good on the guys who finished OAA and went to FR. Yeah maybe it wasn't what they expected when they first signed up but hell they are flying and there's a hell of a good chance they will still be employed "term used loosely" in 2yrs!

I do think some of OAA emplyment statistics are off and should also include an indication of when that person graduated. I personally know people that graduated early 2007 and they have got jobs recently and have been included in this years stats. Also as stated in another post/thread they do put up some names pre sim check/TR in which that person has been unsucessful and dropped. Then again there are others who do not tell them they get a job and these numbers are more likely greater than the amount that get chopped.

Now just to add something alot of you wont like.

The amount of people gaining an fATPL verus the amount of people going to a major and getting their type rating paid either integrated or modular are very small.


Those not willing to pay for a type rating are going to find it very very very difficult to find that first job in the next 2yrs! FR will screw you over for the first 6 months and then your earning more than a BA cadet FO who is on a reduced salary until year 5! The difference adds up to the around the same as FR screwed you over intially!

I can understand how hard it is to get the additional finances to pay for a type rating but if you'd paid so much its worth that extra to get that foot in the door!

Also flying turbo props dosen't always make you a better pilot as flying a slippy jet compared to a draggy prop requires different skills. I handfly my jet as much as pos with the flight directors off and so use the same skills as my TP friends and hell even the same skills of those pre IR! Unless of course you do CATIII landings all the time in your jet your a lazy sod!

Dont turn down anyjobs regardless of TP or Jet, in the current climate you'd be silly too! Added to this, in this CURRENT climate, keep your job and go modular but go to a good school and yes OAA is a good school!

Kempus

ps This post may be all over the place as been watchin the apprentice and now watching girls of the play mansion so apologies!

[BerksFlyer]

Also flying turbo props dosen't always make you a better pilot as flying a slippy jet compared to a draggy prop requires different skills.

Maybe I worded it wrongly. Sure it isn't true that every TP pilot is better than their jet counterpart, but I was just trying to say that we all love flying and flying different aircraft can only develop different skills which you can add to your armoury overall making you a more rounded pilot. Good on you for doing as much hand flying as possible - that's what it's all about afterall.

FR will screw you over for the first 6 months and then your earning more than a BA cadet FO who is on a reduced salary until year 5! The difference adds up to the around the same as FR screwed you over intially!

This is something else I've never understood. Why do people seem to undervalue the salary difference between a DEP and an SSP? A job's a job's a job as far as your first is concerned. Once you're unfrozen then you can start going for the airlines you wish to fly for - with the added benefit of being on a higher DEP salary rather than a diluted 'we gave you a job when you were low hours, so we're going to pay you less for a long time' salary.

[SD.]

I imagine that a large percentage of OAA students are sold the dream of working for the national flag carrier. BA have taken on 13 so far and I would guess that the year end figure is around 20 - 25 'graduates'.

Would you gamble 25k on a 10% chance of landing a job with BA? Disregarding FR, the next big company to hire from OAA is FlyBe. With all due respect to FlyBe pilots, their FO salary is not as competitive as the likes of EZY, FR etc. You'll need every penny you can get to pay off that 75k of debt.

Personally I'd rather go modular & save 30k+

[99jolegg]

I should add that I wasn't suggesting that integrated is the way to go because you are more likely to get a job, I was basing what I said on the statistics from integrated FTOs. All of their statistics have a large proportion going to RYR - with uptake slowing down and 80 or more pilots from integrated courses going to RYR, there surely can't be many spaces left to fill

Aviation is about getting your foot in the door and securing it. Do that and your laughing!

[speedrestriction]

Good on you for doing as much hand flying as possible - that's what it's all about afterall.

Nonsense - its is about getting people safely from A to B. Hand flying is a minor perk in suitable conditions, certainly not "what it's all about."

When considering flight training be as objective as you can. Look for the reasons why you shouldn't spend that £50k thats burning a hole in your back pocket as well as reasons why you should.

sr

[BerksFlyer]

Nonsense - its is about getting people safely from A to B. Hand flying is a minor perk in suitable conditions, certainly not "what it's all about."

Hence why I mentioned hand flying as much as 'possible'. Perhaps I should have said as much as 'safely possible'.

I didn't actually mean it in the sense 'hand flying is what flying an airliner is all about', I meant 'hand flying is flying in its rawest form and that is where it all pilots started'.

Safety is what it's all about, you are correct. Though personally I feel that you should keep your hand flying skills should you need them, they are important to a degree. Of course safety is paramount and you use your discretion/SOPs.

[cfwake]

mm

Do you have a personal vendetta against OAA or have you just decided to launch another broadside at them?

Feel like you were almost promised a job at a Big Airline? Well having been at OAA and having known an awful lot of people there (obviously) only a very, very naive few believe that. They're a business and as such have a responsibility to sell their product, and they do it very well but I do not for one minute feel that I have ever been lied to about job prospects!

Most of us ARE fully aware, however, that the quality of training at OAA is second to none, and this has been agreed by countless ATPLs at all seniority levels who advised me to go there, and who specifically stated that OAA was, in fact, a damn good string to have in your bow when you look for the first job, because again I have been told, more than once, that OAA is the benchmark in airline pilot training. From day one you are trained to think in an 'airline' way, and while some of you may find it ridiculous, the airlines don't seem to, and never have. That's the difference, and yes, you do pay more for it. How much more? Look at the Cabair and FTE (and now CTC) websites - no-one offers cheap integrated training. In fact, I would suspect that all in pretty much each course is a similar cost. Certainly the basic cost of the all the courses is very, very similar.

And as I have come to realise, OAA can only work with what they're given. They take something like 40% of the applicants from what I remember off the top of my head...they have a certain number of places and have an obligation to fill them. It's a business, not the RAF. They have only an obligation to provide the training that they are paid for. They've done that for me and all of my coursemates so far and the training that they have provided has been absolutely excellent.

Barring a few minor details, which, talking to students at other integrated and modular schools are common, I cannot say I have ever honestly regretted coming here. True the industry is going through a rocky time at the moment, but good training complements ability and intelligence and is the key to sucessful entry into the profession. Having heard from professionals on the flight deck, training office and recruitment office, I'm pretty convinced that I've had that from the right people, and it's like listening to a stuck record coming on here and seeing people having a crack at OAA for one poorly explained reason or another.

At the end of the day, what has always got me is this: if you don't like it, don't go! But don't, as some people on here seem to do (and mm I'm not referring specifically to you here), come and dig in without having experienced it. I have been guilty of that several times before as I dare say most of us have, but until people stop doing so we will all be criticised for our training choice and/or training provider for various reasons that usually boil down to "It's not how I trained, therefore it's not the best way".

Somewhat tangential rant over, donning tin hat!

[heli_port]

At the end of the day statistics aside, what convinced me to go there is the professionalism displayed when I went to visit them and when I sat the entrance tests? Don't get me wrong the statistics helped I however felt that the OAA approach was a very 'low risk' approach and thus I paid my deposit.

So will I get a job? And by that I mean will I get recommended to BA? I hope so if not it's not at the end of the world as I have come from a solid school with a great reputation and hopefully will be snapped up by another airline. What this all comes down to is money. If you are willing to stump up the cash and take a 'punt' go for it if not then don't whine about it and go elsewhere

[modern monkey]

Ok, so bashing OAA is a bit like a stuck record. Where I am coming from is that I have a personal vendetta against the exploitation of wannabees in general. See my other posts, eg on the Easyjet "pay to work" scheme.

Having come through the modular UK flight training system and having overcome the struggle to get my first airline job, I can now view things "from the other side" as it were.

It is now clear to me just how pathetic and rediculus wannabe exploitation by the likes of Ryan Air, OAA, etc really is. The amount of sh*te talked by them to justify their greed is unbelievable.

Wannabe pilots are like a rotting corpse surrounded by flies.

The wannabes are the corpse and the flies are the FTOs et al, all scrambling to get their pound of cash.

[99jolegg]

I think it's easier to think like that after the process. I'm sure you worked very hard to get where you are in the airline industry but that's just it, you are there and the modular (cheaper) route worked for you, so you look back thankfully that you didn't "waste" your money on an integrated course because, after all, there was no need.

However, if you weren't so successful in the route you chose - would you still be saying these integrated courses "suck you in" and all want to get their "pound of cash"? I think you'd probably question and evaluate the route you chose and ponder about where you would have been if you took another route.

It's certainly easier with hindsight and success. This is similar to someone going through an integrated course, getting a job and saying that it's the way to go, simply because it worked for them.

[The African Dude]

djfingercrossed

Your desire to go modular may just come true. Don't forget - the CTC Wings course always was a one-stop modular course until quite recently. But it won't cost you any less than an integrated course. Why? Because there's hardly any difference between the two.

Whether the path one takes is right or wrong can only be assessed in terms of the consequences of said path in relation to the intended outcome. The wrong path into the industry is the path that doesn't actually get one into said industry. Depending on how good a bricklayer one happens to be, ones path can vary in both quality and direction; but a good bricklayer is more likely to make a good path out of bad bricks than a bad bricklayer - catch my drift?

Back to the topic:
OAA are a business, just like the government. The government uses spin on their statistics to prove their point. OAA will do the same. Caveat Emptor - as has been said so many times before!

[Skintman]

Modern Monkey

Your origianl post/rant serves very little purpose to wannabies apart from making you look very anti OAA. Is there a reason behind this?

OAA have been training cadets for many years and will continue to do so I'm sure. The fact that RYR has taken a lot of pilots this year is not the fault of OAA. Would you rather OAA graduates did not get these jobs?

Who cares where you get your first job. BA/BMI would be great, but not really realistic for most. At least OAA publish their figures and are happy to take the flak accordingly.

Training to fly is expensive whichever route you take unfortunatley and wannabies should do research in full thermselves. Your rant hardly helps them.

I suspect that persons on this site would listen to your views more if you had experienced OAA, rather than just taking a pop for an unknown reason. Why not rant against the other FTO's - because they don't publish their figures, that's why. Perhaps some more constructive comments from you might help.

The maths aint hard - today 105 in 5.36 months = 235 pro rata for 12 full months.

Skintman

[BerksFlyer]

Training to fly is expensive whichever route you take unfortunatley and wannabies should do research in full thermselves. Your rant hardly helps them.

But it's the vast difference in expense in question usually when talking about the likes of OAA.