Eastern Airways
Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Which sim are they using for the sim check? The J31 at Woodford? It might be much less attractive an offer if the candidate has to fund their own way all the way to the J41 sim in Washington DC.
Anyone actually know what the charge for the check is? And, are Eastern the first TP operator to charge selection fees? I don't think flybe or BACX do, IIRC.
And to play the devil's advocate for a moment, to those who bandy about the 'well you entered the industry, nobody forced you' comment at people - did you consider the possibility that some of these folks may just have entered the industry long enough ago that paying for one's own check at the likes of Eastern and getting bonded onto a 10t Jetstream for 3 years was unheard of? Perhaps they've gone down the instructor route only to see the goalposts moving as they've done so...
After all, only 18 months ago (yes, only 18 months) the only companies asking candidates to pay for their own selection process were those flying shiny jets and even then only a small number of companies at that. WWW's post says it all, really.
Finally, deskbound said:
I'm curious; deskbound, did you pay the interview costs when you want back to the bank?
Anyone actually know what the charge for the check is? And, are Eastern the first TP operator to charge selection fees? I don't think flybe or BACX do, IIRC.
And to play the devil's advocate for a moment, to those who bandy about the 'well you entered the industry, nobody forced you' comment at people - did you consider the possibility that some of these folks may just have entered the industry long enough ago that paying for one's own check at the likes of Eastern and getting bonded onto a 10t Jetstream for 3 years was unheard of? Perhaps they've gone down the instructor route only to see the goalposts moving as they've done so...
After all, only 18 months ago (yes, only 18 months) the only companies asking candidates to pay for their own selection process were those flying shiny jets and even then only a small number of companies at that. WWW's post says it all, really.
Finally, deskbound said:
Left Banking to gain my fATPL which I now have but guess what I am back doing!!!
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Ok point taken I did not pay for my interveiw when I went back into the finance world ............but I did have expirence say"500 hrs on type"" !!
But on a serious note I can understand both sides of the coin ours and the beancounters............but i am so bored behind a desk again, just wanna fly! and yes I have mortgaged the family silver so no spare cash to go down the instructing route.
But on a serious note I can understand both sides of the coin ours and the beancounters............but i am so bored behind a desk again, just wanna fly! and yes I have mortgaged the family silver so no spare cash to go down the instructing route.
Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Hehe, good answer deskbound! 
At least Eastern are still offering the bond, and not a TRSS for the Jetstream. A self-sponsored rating on a rather less-than-ubiquitous type would have been a bitter pill to swallow. Sadly, there is a chance that the beancounters probably thought about it. Perhaps sadder still, someone somewhere would probably have taken the deal.
This could still prove to be something of a watershed in recruitment terms. I'm sure Eastern are the first of the entry-level carriers to introduce candidate fees and delay the payroll until the new FO takes their seat on the flight deck. Given the history of the last few years we may find the other entry-level airlines following suit.
As we speak, there will be unemployed CPLs everywhere putting their hands down the back of the couch for loose change or looking up that long-lost great uncle...
Now if they would only offer to bond new entrants onto the Saabs...
(As an aside, I've been reading these forums for a few years now. Since, in fact, the days when WWW was looking for his first job and cutting his teeth as an instructor. So much has changed in this industry since then and reading his post put that into perspective).
At least Eastern are still offering the bond, and not a TRSS for the Jetstream. A self-sponsored rating on a rather less-than-ubiquitous type would have been a bitter pill to swallow. Sadly, there is a chance that the beancounters probably thought about it. Perhaps sadder still, someone somewhere would probably have taken the deal.
This could still prove to be something of a watershed in recruitment terms. I'm sure Eastern are the first of the entry-level carriers to introduce candidate fees and delay the payroll until the new FO takes their seat on the flight deck. Given the history of the last few years we may find the other entry-level airlines following suit.
As we speak, there will be unemployed CPLs everywhere putting their hands down the back of the couch for loose change or looking up that long-lost great uncle...
Now if they would only offer to bond new entrants onto the Saabs...
(As an aside, I've been reading these forums for a few years now. Since, in fact, the days when WWW was looking for his first job and cutting his teeth as an instructor. So much has changed in this industry since then and reading his post put that into perspective).
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Perhaps I came into the industry around the same time as WWW and MaxReheat - but IMHO what Eastern is doing is out and out exploitation of those who are prepared to dig and dig again into ever emptying pockets. I would invite any contributors to name any other profession where a trainee is not put on the payroll from day one. You wouldn't expect to join Barclays Bank, for example, to be told that you won't receive any pay until you have passed your first set of banking exams. Why the aviation industry is always seeking to exploit and denegrate its employees to breaking point escapes me. This is a new strategy for Eastern and one has to ask why they are, at this stage in the day, trying to cut back on costs.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Charley they are taking new starters onto the Saabs. Base dependant of course. The Saabs are based at Humberside and Aberdeen.
The J41 is an excellent aircraft to start on and 3 weeks of no pay and a bond of 15k for 3 years is a small price to pay for your first job!!
It has been said before but they have to do something to stop people leaving after 6 months and to keep there training costs down.
I'm enjoying every minute of it and it was worth the bond. I would recommend Eastern to any new starter. If they offer you it bite there hands off.
HFS
The J41 is an excellent aircraft to start on and 3 weeks of no pay and a bond of 15k for 3 years is a small price to pay for your first job!!
It has been said before but they have to do something to stop people leaving after 6 months and to keep there training costs down.
I'm enjoying every minute of it and it was worth the bond. I would recommend Eastern to any new starter. If they offer you it bite there hands off.
HFS
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
The sim assessment is carried out by Triple a flying at Humberside airport by a chap called Mike Briggs. On the old FNPT1, SID, tracking, vectors to ILS to land, that is the typical profile.
Cost =£176.
No trips to the states or Woodford you'll be glad to know!!
Cost =£176.
No trips to the states or Woodford you'll be glad to know!!
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
You will find very few posts by Eastern pilots on PPRUne. We are busy, building hours, learning from some great colleagues and enjoying the flying. For a first job it is excellent in most regards (although T&C's could be better). We fly a fast, sometimes tricky, little sports car of a plane - often doing procedural approaches for real at some out of the way places. For a small outfit, it has a professional pilot attitudes and is a great training ground for the next job. I have no regrets about being bonded for £15k. If I leave early, it will be for a better paid job that will probably be less fun and result in seeing less of the kids.
I gather the new recruitment procedure will involve a sim assessment on a FNPT2 in the UK (surely not more than £200?) and a chance to observe people while on the ground school...to see if they fit in. Like any airline we have our share of tossers and silver spooners, but the selection procedures have been pretty good so far. I never had £25k to buy a 737 rating, but Eastern are one of the very few airlines that will bond you. In a year's time they will either have dropped the requirement to fund your own groundschool, or they will have gone the whole hog and make you pay for the whole lot up front....all depending upon which way the market goes.
In the end it is up to you whether you apply now or gamble on getting something tastier later in the day. However, as a note of caution, the new MultiPilotCPL is due to come in in 2007...so self improvers with experience on only light twins might find that avenues to shiny jet jobs at 200 hours might be closed down. My advice....get a job asap...pay as little as possible and then move on.
I gather the new recruitment procedure will involve a sim assessment on a FNPT2 in the UK (surely not more than £200?) and a chance to observe people while on the ground school...to see if they fit in. Like any airline we have our share of tossers and silver spooners, but the selection procedures have been pretty good so far. I never had £25k to buy a 737 rating, but Eastern are one of the very few airlines that will bond you. In a year's time they will either have dropped the requirement to fund your own groundschool, or they will have gone the whole hog and make you pay for the whole lot up front....all depending upon which way the market goes.
In the end it is up to you whether you apply now or gamble on getting something tastier later in the day. However, as a note of caution, the new MultiPilotCPL is due to come in in 2007...so self improvers with experience on only light twins might find that avenues to shiny jet jobs at 200 hours might be closed down. My advice....get a job asap...pay as little as possible and then move on.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Airlines are only indulging in this practise of making new entrants pay for type-ratings and various other training because they now know that they can,the accountants tested the water at the perfect time with a gross oversupply of new pilot candidates, those with the financial ability signed up, so to speak and the practise has now become almost acceptable. It is turning this industry into a farce. A job that is only reachable by those who can throw the most money at it and this is not how it used to be and need not be now. The power to change this rests not with the companies, they are generally run by persons that care little about flying, but with newly qualified pilots. the simple answer is do not pay for type training, the companies will still require pilots from time to time, they always have. and they will train you on the aircraft they operate. Take it from someone who has been invovled in this industry for many a year and knows how it works.
I know there will always be a queue jumping element in this job, it used to be a very much ` knowing the right people` industry, to a degree this is still true, but now being replaced by this pay money up front culture. Pilots by their nature can be a fairly selfish bunch, I want it now attitude thats why many chose this job, my advice is to stand together{ though that may not be in your nature} and just refuse to subscribe to this paying for everything culture, you could turn this around in a very short time believe me.
I know there will always be a queue jumping element in this job, it used to be a very much ` knowing the right people` industry, to a degree this is still true, but now being replaced by this pay money up front culture. Pilots by their nature can be a fairly selfish bunch, I want it now attitude thats why many chose this job, my advice is to stand together{ though that may not be in your nature} and just refuse to subscribe to this paying for everything culture, you could turn this around in a very short time believe me.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
The sim assessment is carried out by Triple a flying at Humberside airport by a chap called Mike Briggs. On the old FNPT1, SID, tracking, vectors to ILS to land, that is the typical profile.
Cost =£176.
Cost =£176.
£12K - £15K bond......... fair enough
3 weeks of unpaid groundschool.......... okay if I have to
Sim Assesment..........fair enough
£176 for an FNPT1 with Tripple A...........come on.
Whilst I can see the logic behind Easterns new approach, it has to be said that if the above profile is true £176 for an FNPT1 sim check that is not even loggable seems a little steep, particularly if you do not get through.
Surely a far better way to retain pilots is to make the bond Larger at the beginning of 3 years and reducing most in the final year.
or better still
Give older people with no immediate jet aspirations a fair crack at the whip, I for one would be more than happy to stay for 3 years if a command was offered, as have several of my pals at Eastern.
Last edited by duir; 12th Jan 2006 at 09:49.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Eastern latest recruitment policy can only make one wonder who the 'brains' is behind this?
Having had over twenty five years in both military and civil aviation mainley in an intructional/training/recruitment role, I would like to make the following comments:
(a) From my experience, there is not always a correlation between performance on ground training and flight training. Infact I failed a few regretably, in my time who did brilliantly on the ground school, but couldn't hack the simulator and line traing!
(b) What is Eastern doing evaluating Instrument Skills on an FNPT1, surely if the man has a valid IR, they trust the better judgement of an IRE!
(c) Many of the companies I have worked for, prefered taking on chaps who while seeking an airline job, were holding down a steady day job, and were not impressed by chaps who would leave their previous employment without at least two months notice
(d) Eastern, who is some senses are a 'coporate' airline, flying mostly businessmen/women, these people are well informed. It surely would be only a matter of time before these clients will discover through the media, the shabby employment practice in Eastern, a PR disaster waiting to happen.
(e) Finally, a word of caution, to those seeking their first airline job, don't keep posting messages saying you think its a god deal, because it isn't, next Eastern will require your left t**t**le. Just hang in there and don't undersell youself!
Having had over twenty five years in both military and civil aviation mainley in an intructional/training/recruitment role, I would like to make the following comments:
(a) From my experience, there is not always a correlation between performance on ground training and flight training. Infact I failed a few regretably, in my time who did brilliantly on the ground school, but couldn't hack the simulator and line traing!
(b) What is Eastern doing evaluating Instrument Skills on an FNPT1, surely if the man has a valid IR, they trust the better judgement of an IRE!
(c) Many of the companies I have worked for, prefered taking on chaps who while seeking an airline job, were holding down a steady day job, and were not impressed by chaps who would leave their previous employment without at least two months notice
(d) Eastern, who is some senses are a 'coporate' airline, flying mostly businessmen/women, these people are well informed. It surely would be only a matter of time before these clients will discover through the media, the shabby employment practice in Eastern, a PR disaster waiting to happen.
(e) Finally, a word of caution, to those seeking their first airline job, don't keep posting messages saying you think its a god deal, because it isn't, next Eastern will require your left t**t**le. Just hang in there and don't undersell youself!
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Duir,
What I said about Mike Briggs doing the assessment is absolutly true. There may however be an Eastern Airways 'representative' present during the sim check.
Yes its an FNPT1 and yes it does cost £176!
Take that as you may...
Muppethead..
What I said about Mike Briggs doing the assessment is absolutly true. There may however be an Eastern Airways 'representative' present during the sim check.
Yes its an FNPT1 and yes it does cost £176!
Take that as you may...
Muppethead..
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
On the Triple A website they quote
FNPT1 as £110 net £129 net plus VAT
Presumably this is per hour with an instructor? Therefore due to the cost of the sim ride I can only conclude that it lasts around 1 hour and 30 mins. This seems rather a long time to be assesed on the FNPT1, if there are about 5 other candidates undergoing assesment too. With a thorough briefing and debriefing as you would expect for this kind of money, that's an awfully long day in the sim for Mr Briggs.
FNPT1 as £110 net £129 net plus VAT
Presumably this is per hour with an instructor? Therefore due to the cost of the sim ride I can only conclude that it lasts around 1 hour and 30 mins. This seems rather a long time to be assesed on the FNPT1, if there are about 5 other candidates undergoing assesment too. With a thorough briefing and debriefing as you would expect for this kind of money, that's an awfully long day in the sim for Mr Briggs.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
What a whingeing bunch. At the end of the day if you don't like it don't apply. As Luke says, Eastern are one of the few TP operators recruiting low hours pilots. Why the hell they have to justify their assessment system to some hacked off pruners is beyond me.
The reason they have these is they have been bitten in the past by people with IR's, but with no ability to fly the line. Why shouldn't they have a look at you? I agree that it is debatable if an FNPT1 is the best way of assessing that, and doubt the ethics of using a school which can capitilise on this commercially. BUT - it is a hoop to jump through, as is the MCC. If you don't like it go to Ryan and pay £20k for your assessment. You can be dropped just as easily with the TR!
The reason they have these is they have been bitten in the past by people with IR's, but with no ability to fly the line. Why shouldn't they have a look at you? I agree that it is debatable if an FNPT1 is the best way of assessing that, and doubt the ethics of using a school which can capitilise on this commercially. BUT - it is a hoop to jump through, as is the MCC. If you don't like it go to Ryan and pay £20k for your assessment. You can be dropped just as easily with the TR!
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Silverknapper
Eastern are one of the few companies in the UK that do not come out with this "are you Integrated/1000hour plus" crap and that's why I really wanted to work for them. I have many friends with Eastern and it was one of my shortlisted airlines to work for. Unfortunately loosing 3 weeks worth of income(if you can get the time off without loosing your job) and paying 3 weeks B+B during the groundschool whilst unwaged and with no firm job offer, rules a lot of people out. Therefore you are left with the DBIs(Daddy bought it) and the desperate..........are these really the best people to recruit? The answer is a resounding NO! Thast's because these are the exact people that in 18 months will be off to shiny jetland and Eastern are right back to the problem of staff retention.
I do feel that an FNPT1 assesment is perhaps much fairer for people looking for their first job as this is more in keeping with previous IR experience(I for one have around 50 hours FNPT1). However to charge for this, which some schools (Triple A included) give solo time for free is very questionable. Certainly not the £176
I just can't see how anyone can get 3 weeks off work at short notice and not get sacked. If you quit the job you may not get called up for months. "Do any job to survive" .... not so simple I am afraid. I work as a full time FI and am very well paid with a yearly retainer plus flight pay. This just about keeps the debts from the door and my head above water, how can I give that up on a maybe? Say I pass the assesment but wait several months for a position, that's hundreds of hours flying lost and a lot of income.
It really isn't whingeing, it's sheer dissappointment.
Eastern are one of the few companies in the UK that do not come out with this "are you Integrated/1000hour plus" crap and that's why I really wanted to work for them. I have many friends with Eastern and it was one of my shortlisted airlines to work for. Unfortunately loosing 3 weeks worth of income(if you can get the time off without loosing your job) and paying 3 weeks B+B during the groundschool whilst unwaged and with no firm job offer, rules a lot of people out. Therefore you are left with the DBIs(Daddy bought it) and the desperate..........are these really the best people to recruit? The answer is a resounding NO! Thast's because these are the exact people that in 18 months will be off to shiny jetland and Eastern are right back to the problem of staff retention.
I do feel that an FNPT1 assesment is perhaps much fairer for people looking for their first job as this is more in keeping with previous IR experience(I for one have around 50 hours FNPT1). However to charge for this, which some schools (Triple A included) give solo time for free is very questionable. Certainly not the £176
I just can't see how anyone can get 3 weeks off work at short notice and not get sacked. If you quit the job you may not get called up for months. "Do any job to survive" .... not so simple I am afraid. I work as a full time FI and am very well paid with a yearly retainer plus flight pay. This just about keeps the debts from the door and my head above water, how can I give that up on a maybe? Say I pass the assesment but wait several months for a position, that's hundreds of hours flying lost and a lot of income.
It really isn't whingeing, it's sheer dissappointment.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
and it was one of my shortlisted airlines to work for.
I know someone going through selection and he was told either do the sim ride and then get paid whilst on groundschool OR do groundschool unpaid with no sim ride. Not sure how passing groundschool means you can fly but never mind.
My point is duir that if you don't like it don't apply. But don't then come on here moaning about it. At the end of the long road getting a CPL people should jump at any opportunity. Face it, at the moment there aren't a lot of other options at the moment. Be positive someone will pay for a type rating for you.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
silverknapper,
"At the end of the long road getting a CPL people should jump at any opportunity".
Really? Even if it means paying to be assessed and not getting paid during groundschool? What next, £50 for Eastern to read your CV? No pay during line training? Half pay once line training completed until 6 months flying has been completed?
I think the reason some people have posted their disquiet is that at a time when the market is supposedly "good" for low-time pilots (and that is a relative term), we are seeing another company follow the Ryanair approach to pilot recruitment.
Now, just because you are happy with the situation doesn't mean other wannabes shouldn't be able to come on to this bulletin board and express their disquiet about it. It's a disturbing new development and one not to be welcomed.
I'm with MaxReheat on this.
"It is the self-funded ground school and sim ride where the compnay, and others doing the same, are taking the proverbial"
"PPrune is weighed under with threads concerning the erosion of terms and conditions professional pilots have suffered over the past 10 years, the self financing of type ratings etc. While people are prepared to sell themselves short to the likes of this unpaid work scheme Eastern is trying, then employers will continue to try it on and the mugs will still roll in through the gates."
"At the end of the long road getting a CPL people should jump at any opportunity".
Really? Even if it means paying to be assessed and not getting paid during groundschool? What next, £50 for Eastern to read your CV? No pay during line training? Half pay once line training completed until 6 months flying has been completed?
I think the reason some people have posted their disquiet is that at a time when the market is supposedly "good" for low-time pilots (and that is a relative term), we are seeing another company follow the Ryanair approach to pilot recruitment.
Now, just because you are happy with the situation doesn't mean other wannabes shouldn't be able to come on to this bulletin board and express their disquiet about it. It's a disturbing new development and one not to be welcomed.
I'm with MaxReheat on this.
"It is the self-funded ground school and sim ride where the compnay, and others doing the same, are taking the proverbial"
"PPrune is weighed under with threads concerning the erosion of terms and conditions professional pilots have suffered over the past 10 years, the self financing of type ratings etc. While people are prepared to sell themselves short to the likes of this unpaid work scheme Eastern is trying, then employers will continue to try it on and the mugs will still roll in through the gates."
Last edited by Bertie Bassett; 13th Jan 2006 at 13:57.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Silverknapper
Terribly sorry to have upset you old boy and of course I would take it if offered as only a fool would turn down their first commercial break. It will be bloody hard financially though. Oh well, I shall try to stop bleating like a ginger step child.
Terribly sorry to have upset you old boy and of course I would take it if offered as only a fool would turn down their first commercial break. It will be bloody hard financially though. Oh well, I shall try to stop bleating like a ginger step child.
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Re: Eastern Airways Scam
I'm beginning to sound like I'm an Eastern employee - I'm not. And as previously stated I have doubts about the morality of a commercial school doing the assessment and potentially misleading students about employment prospects.
BUT
Paying £170 for a sim check is not the end of the world. Drawing comparisons with Ryan is very unfair- Eastern pay everything else for you. Plenty of people are applying to Eastern. It would be easy for them to ignore min hours guys totally and recruit people with at least a few hundred hours. The fact they will take a chance on you surely justifies letting them assess you without being penalised financially?
SK
BUT
Paying £170 for a sim check is not the end of the world. Drawing comparisons with Ryan is very unfair- Eastern pay everything else for you. Plenty of people are applying to Eastern. It would be easy for them to ignore min hours guys totally and recruit people with at least a few hundred hours. The fact they will take a chance on you surely justifies letting them assess you without being penalised financially?
SK
Re: Eastern Airways Scam
Hi there
Eastern aren't alone at this lark.I totally agree with duir's posts.Mortgages and children tend to put the kibosh on taking three weeks off any job.Candidates applying for a well-known Irish turboprop operator have to carry out a sim-check on a B737-200 sim in EIDW,at their own expense.Anyone wanting to have a real chance of getting a start will have to do some time in that sim before the actual check-ride.At E300/hr, it's a bit of a sting on the pocket....If Eastern are willing to give low-timers a shot, then good, but it's still a bit much.
regards
TDD
Eastern aren't alone at this lark.I totally agree with duir's posts.Mortgages and children tend to put the kibosh on taking three weeks off any job.Candidates applying for a well-known Irish turboprop operator have to carry out a sim-check on a B737-200 sim in EIDW,at their own expense.Anyone wanting to have a real chance of getting a start will have to do some time in that sim before the actual check-ride.At E300/hr, it's a bit of a sting on the pocket....If Eastern are willing to give low-timers a shot, then good, but it's still a bit much.
regards
TDD