A good year for Modular Trainee Employment?

[Dude~]

Smith - yes I know that! We've got crossed wires now - I was refering to BYALPHAINDIA's post which was talking utter tosh!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Scroggs flying in the RAF went out of fashion years ago!!

What I was saying was that 'Most' Mill pilot's are using their 'common' sense and leaving the RAF to go to the Airlines, and thus filling up the pockets of the LO-CO operators.

Although a young man in shoes, I do know enough about the Industry to comment on this.

You would be amazed at the current 'morale' in the RAF, what with no 'chinooks' available and constant base closures, look at Leeming what future does that have after 2007 when the last SQN leaves?

I should think with all this happening, and the lack of investment by our so called 'Government' the RAF is on it's nerves?

I'm not saying the Airline industry is better security than the RAF, but what's going on in there?

No Hard Feelings.

Regards.

[scroggs]

Is this in English? Can anyone translate?

Scroggs

[DJRC]

Yes, I 'think' I can 'translate' this................. erm, no, don't have a clue what he's on about either.

[speedrestriction]

Originally Posted by BYALPHAINDIA

Although a young man in shoes...

To be honest it sounds like an eleven year old trying to write like an adult.

sr

[Deano777]

Ok guys no need to be so patronizing to him, give him a chance to defend himself

[dartagnan]

here the translation. much easier now!



Летание Scroggs в raf пошло из способа леты тому назад!! Я был высказывание было что ' большинств ' пилот стана использует их ' общее ' чувство и оставляет raf для того чтобы пойти к авиакомпаниям, и таким образом заполняющ вверх по карманам операторов LO-CO. Хотя молодой человек в ботинках, я знает достаточно о индустрии для комментария на этом. Вы были бы изумлены на в настоящее время ' morale ' в raf, без ' имеющихся chinooks' и постоянн низкопробное закрытие, взгляд на Leeming что будущее то имеет после 2007 когда последнее SQN выходит? Я должен думать с весь этот случаться, и отсутсвием облечения нашим поэтому вызванным ' правительством ', котор raf находится на ем будет нервы? Я не говорю компанииа авиатранспорта будет более лучшая обеспеченность чем raf, но идет дальше внутри там? Отсутствие Тяжелого чувство.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Is it that time of month or what??

I have 'Obviously' confused the BIG men of the establishment!!

I do live up North thou!! we are looking down on you aren't we?

And before you ask, The flat caps & greyhounds were retired long ago, I know have an a Beanie cap & an AK47!!

Or and an ATPL??

So you don't agree that the Airlines make a loss in Winter then? Mr Meeson recently said that although Jet2 has done 'Extremely' well so far this year, They will make a 'Loss' this winter as well as the other carriers.

There is a 'GLUT' of Line pilot's at the moment, and although they are being recruited, there are plenty in the Breeding!

Scroggs, the RAF has changed since you were there, It is not a Career anymore it is a job!

DJRC, and the others you are following Scroggs point of view like 'SHEEP' instead of saying what you REALLY mean?

Deano777, Thanks, I will remember that, all the best with the CPL/IR in the Southern China Zone!

I have to go now - Capt Greyhound is waiting!!

Goodday!!

[George Foreman]

A great philosopher once wrote ..

...and I think I'm random.

Scroggs, the RAF has changed since you were there, It is not a Career anymore it is a job!

Not at all sure where you are going with this, or what point is being made here ? I think you can look at many careers/jobs in this way, depending on your motivation at the time. The management consultants probably have a chart for it - some sort of "emotional cycle"

If you are saying that there is some sort of predictable underlying task to be carried out / job of work to be done, then that is also partially true of civilian aviation ...thankfully! What keeps me focussed, apart from considerable variety in procedures and destinations, is that requirement of the "job" whereby I must react (in an equally predictable way) to an abnormal or emergency situation at short notice!

Surely though, when any career ceases to be challenging it is probably time to stretch one's goals and aspirations, for some sort of change (eg. a new type, preparing for a command) or additional responsibilities. I think there are enough such opportunities in aviation to see me through to retirement and beyond.

My other point would be that we supposedly live in some sort of "Knowledge Economy", where one's "career", in the broadest sense of the word, might naturally be expected to span several employers and sectors. It would seem like a sensible idea for military pilots to use their transferrable skills when the time comes for a change, for whatever reason. As has been pointed out, they are not only a loss to the military, but they are in short supply compared with the numbers of new entrants presently needed within the civil sector.

Finally, it shouldn't be needed after the adequate explanation above, but for clarification this much is verifiably true:

So you don't agree that the Airlines make a loss in Winter then? Mr Meeson recently said that although Jet2 has done 'Extremely' well so far this yeor, They will make a 'Loss' this winter as well as the other carriers.

But this is plainly not:

As for the time of year, Obviously most Airlines make a 'loss' in the winter months, so Recruitment & Training is limited to the minimum.

As has been pointed out, most training happens during those quieter, often loss-making months. You have made an uninformed assumption in jumping to the conclusion you have reached from this fact.

Don't worry though, we all make this sort of mistake from time to time. The BBC for example, used to be more careful about not doing this, but I recently heard a news presenter state, quite categorically that centuries of coastal erosion along the east coast was the result of global warming.

While Tony is fixing the education system, I for one would like to see something on "how we know what we know" added to the curriculum.

Rant over .. happy flying.

George

PS I still prefer "the job" to my old career.
PPS I'm from way North of Leeds!

[Vortex Thing]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Sorry for obvious thread creep (it is only at the start) BUT It would be occasionally nice for people to acknowledge that the RAF is not the only service in the nation (Scroggs thank you I notice that you did mention it) who has pilots so if you want to talk about the military talk about us all not just those with shocking mess kit (some intended but only in jest)

As for the thread. I kept in contact with 8 chaps from my modular training in 03. All of use went to different schoools for ground, CPL, IR and MCC (and not the same ones either) and FI for those of those who did.

3 got jet jobs with nationals (one of them had 1200hrs mil rotary the others 3/400hrs piston)
2 got jet jobs with low cost 1x Easy(CTC AQC), 1x Ryan (SSTR)
2 on TPs for regionals (within 6 months of finishing less than 300hrs piston)
1 on TPs in Africa (now at 700hrs)
1 is still serving RAF (but has 3000hrs (2000 are heavy) so will probably not have to q for long)

Various ages from 23-36 years old only 2 of us including me are instructors. 4 ex mil officers. all graduates. All vastly different backgrounds and family status.

All paid or were bonded for type ratings one did SSTR on wrong type and then was bonded on new type!! So at the end of the day I think it is safe to say that modular didn't scupper our chances. The lowest debt is £45k the highest £105k.

The funniest thing is that NOT paying for the type rating straight away is what cost me personally the money. The 18 months I instructed for were as a whole of now use to my application at all and those who went straight to SSTR are now much better of financially now than those who stuck to thier guns and /or principals holding out for an answer.

Just to end on a great note there is one thing all of us have in common. FlyBe never ever replied to any of our applications at any stage. Not even a PFO... go figure eh. Still waiting just so we can smile and say no thank you

VT

[mad_jock]

I know of people that send 10 cv's every 2 months - NOT ENOUGH!!

If you want an airline job - fly as often as possible and send at least 100 CV's a month!!!

I disagree Jinks m8.

The quality of the majority of CV's floating around from low hour wannabies that I have seen in the passing is shocking. Some are even using Micro****e Word templates. All of them have the required tickets. But most don't even try and sell themselves. The young ones don't seem to have any life experence and the little they do have they don't sell. The older wannabies put to much of it in. Some you wonder if they are applying for an IT / other postion in the company or a FO position.

You get pictures of people, multi coloured, 7 different fonts on the page, more than one page. I presume most people don't realise that most CV's get photo copied so the picture is useless, funny fonts don't photo copy well, colours go grey and are a pain to read, and more than one page and your gone anyway.

My opinion is

Instead of sending out 100's of ****e CV's. Sit down and research who you are applying to what sort of operation they run. Who owns it. Who is the CP, ops director etc. What planes they fly. Start a file on each one and keep a record of when you applied to them and any PFO's you get and most importantly what you have already sent them. Then if you decided to try them again after improving yourself reference your previous attempt and highlight what you have done to improve yourself.

Write a CV and covering letter which is taylored to each company. TP operators don't want to see or hear you saying how great you are in a Jet sim on your MCC.

If you do it properly you will be lucky to get 2-3 good CV's plus covering letters out a month or application forms.

As an aside I have met several wannabies recently who were single figures in CV's sent out before getting a job, all of them modular. All had something different about them to the standard wannabie eg ex policemen, ex forces (ground types), VSO, TA officers, firemen or self employed running their own business. Another common factor was the fact that none of them had taken out huge loans ie more than 5k to complete thier training. Which to be honest I was suprised at. This profiling of CV's obviously does work and there are somethings which everyone is looking for.

[sicky]

So...for people like me who just want to get into flying because it's all they've ever wanted to do, it's going to be tough going modular?

I know it makes sense to say no, because each case is different, but i'm busy trying to get myself a job where i can get some experience of supervising or being in charge of some people. At the same time i'm trying to make sure i show some other skills that are useful for a pilot to have.

To be honest i've thought about joining the forces as it is something i've always had an intrerest in but you get tied in.

I'm starting to think, being only 21, that a few years in the forces and come out to do my FATPL might be the way i have to go, and just hold on a bit longer...if i can

You can see why the above mentioned modular's didn't have to wait long, but not everybody has the resources/time/interest to do those sort of things. There are plenty of people who have the licences and the ability to be a great FO, and i agree they have to sell themselves, but they may be overlooked because they havn't been in the forces, have no supervising experience, or havn't started their own company, even though they may be perfectly capable.

I hope you know what i'm getting at here!

[Vortex Thing]

Hey

Mad Jock first sicky second.

MJ whilst I appreciate what you are saying is ture that would rely on the ability to get an interview to sell yourself or at the very least for someone to actullay read your CV rather that just get you a form to fill in your hours on. This is rare so what you are in effect saying is that it is not the application process but who you know not what you know. This is I agree is the case(not agree with, as it defeats a meritocratic system) but is more likely the reason for the success of your colleagues rather than there something else about themness.

Sicky actually I don't know what you are getting at. You seem to be implying you think it wrong that you are overlooked for some who can bring more to the company that you would by virtue of non-airline experience that you don't have.

What do I mean, well there are lots of people who can fly a plane just doesn mean that they are all owed jobs doing it, just like lots of people could be good politicans but will never get to know.

The solution seems quite simple, you could just go and get some other experience.

The second confusing thing is that my post above clearly demonstrates that people of all backgrounds, educationally and work wise some with nothing other than bare mimimum qualifications were equally succesful by throwing cold hard cash at the problem so there you have plan B.

Before anyone starts screaming that they don't have the cash well I not that sure that the world owes you a living so go and find it and stop complaining about how expensive it is. It just is deal with it if you want that much you will find the money.

[sicky]

Yeah i really understand and see your POV, i think what i'm trying to understand is how some of the people, often from integrated and sometimes also from modular, who do not have a lot of life experience, maybe havn't worked much and don't evne have the best grade record are managing to get themself noticed ahead of such people with the experience.

Do you see what i mean?

I'll try and go into more detail if you need it, surely it can't all just be lucky breaks, right place, right time sort of things!

As for who you know...it's the most valuable asset you can have in the world these days it would seem - contacts!

[High Wing Drifter]

Mad Jock,

All had something different about them to the standard wannabie eg ex policemen, ex forces (ground types), VSO, TA officers, firemen or self employed running their own business.

The roles you describe don't scream "vive la difference!" to me, but "vive la conformiste!" (excuse bad French, but hopefully you see my point). What I suspect you have identified is that those people who have worked successfully in institutions are probably compatible with the rigid and relatively authoritarian structure of many airlines. Either that or they are simply more closely aligned with the Chief Pilot's background! Personally, it is difficult to argue with the rationality except that anybody who goes in for a mid-life career change porbably has quite a different approach to life, regardless of their background.

[Orvil]

[QUOTE=High Wing Drifter;3006692]Mad Jock,
The roles you describe don't scream "vive la difference!" to me, but "vive la conformiste!" (excuse bad French, but hopefully you see my point). What I suspect you have identified is that those people who have worked successfully in institutions are probably compatible with the rigid and relatively authoritarian structure of many airlines.

HWD,
I don't agree with you one bit. What MJ is implying, is that the people he quoted are anything but conformist.
If you think serving your Country, willing to sacrifice one's own life, showing maturity, and down right unselfishness and good old traditional British stiff upper lip is conformist, think again.
These people are now - unfortunately- are exceptions due to the mind-numbing, uneducated idiots, self-opinionated, MTV-BB TV watching, rolled in cotton wool, chauffeur driven pansies that the mass media call the "YOOF".

So when the CV gets through the HR dept. The Chief Pilot smiles and thinks....
conversation, likes a beer (without getting p1$$ed), got a life outside work.

Sorry, but the YOOF of today..................

[High Wing Drifter]

Hi Orvil,

Wow, you certainly have an axe ready for the sharpening wheel! But, I don't think "yoof" enter the equation here, we are talking about people who already posess the nouse plus the get up and go to get through training relatively unscathed. As per my closing caveat, whatever unfavourable assumptions you chose make about somebody from their background are probably invalidated at this point.

So when the CV gets through the HR dept. The Chief Pilot smiles and thinks....conversation, likes a beer (without getting p1$$ed), got a life outside work.

Which was my other point really, I think MJ identified that the similarity of background between employer and potential employee carries a greater weight in getting an interview, possibly why there are suspicions that integrated students get an easier time of it.

Regardless, I think MJ made some excellent points and has provided me with some food for thought.

[mad_jock]

HWD I think ovil has hit the nail on the head and put in much better words than myself.

You have to remember that he majority of people doing the hiring are of a certain age 45-60. They were brought up in a completely different ethos than todays kids. Military service was to be respected in a person most grand parents had served in the war. A police man was a person of trust and was respected. Kids joining the Scouts and the Boys Brigade was normal. And the older types who through goodness of there hearts like orvil, scroggs, etc give there views on what is percieved to be good egg's, you can bet that CP's etc will have very similar views. When wannabies then instantly come back with some PC clap trap about how they think the world should be or have been told it is by there teachers. I must admit I find it amusing and if after a few beers it provokes a rant (but I am trying to stop that).

Whatever you believe should be the case and think is fair really isn't the way it works.

Myself mid-thirties never mind 45-60 can see a not very pleasant trend in todays youngsters, expecting things to be given to them on a plate. When things go wrong it is always someone elses fault or its not fair. It doesn't help that we have a small section of society who promote this pish and have every excuse for them to blame it on thier parents, education, social status, goverment etc etc. And the term "YOOF" summarises it very well. And any CV which shows a marked diversion away from this stereo type stands out like sore thumb.

And your comment about Intergrated students I think is very valid. Which is the reason why I think Intergrated has lost its hold over the hiring of low houred pilots. The number of modular trained pilots entering the system has expanded rapidly since JAR came into force. The pilots who were first through the system were generally employed by the smaller operators who have now expanded, these pilots are now in the training departments and are the interviewers and hirers. These operators now are the major employers of low time pilots. And its human nature to look for someone with a similar background to yourself.

The traditional Intergrated only operators are changing policy as well. They are taking on more and more experenced multi crewed pilots instead of new starts. BA is a perfect example they are more than happy to look at a modular trained pilot with 1000 hours turboprop time.

And lastly the south of England old boy network from the BAOC days is slowly but surely retiring. The deals done at squadron reunion parties arn't standing up infront of the bean counters. There is serious money and training load involved taking a 200 hour wannabie to online ready to be dicked about FO. I have heard in the region of 25k per pilot for a turbo prop. I should imagine for a large jet it get's on towards 35-40k. If its cheaper with training to take an experenced FO from another operator, thats what the bean counters will make the hiring policy to be. Which will have a knock on effect of causing the operators who don't care where or how you train to require more pilots to replace the poached ones.

Edited to add

Vortex I will admit that who you know does help matters sometimes. But there are alot of my friends who have got jobs with blind CV sending and applications.

[MIKECR]

2 of my ex Plod buddie's are now flying TP's for UK regional operators. Both are modular, low houred, and both managed to find their jobs within roughly 7 - 8 months of finishing their MCC's. One had 2 offers of employment and the other got 3 in one week!

[scroggs]

possibly why there are suspicions that integrated students get an easier time of it

As the integrated/modular system has only been in existence for around 6 or 7 years, I doubt you'll find many Chief (or senior) Pilots who came via either route! As for those who expect to be given, rather than to have to earn, a job flying jet airliners, most will be in for a very unpleasant surprise - as one or two of our more foolish contributors have made very clear in the past!

Scroggs