The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Thanks Beazlebub, your posts are always great to read from a wannabees point of view!
transcendental: I'm seriously considering the CTC route, thanks for taking the time to post the detailed reviews, what interests me is the random roster that flexipilots receive. I was under the impression that you had a standard 5/4 roster at Gatwick?
Another thing I would like to know is the potential of getting a perm position, how long does it typically take to be able to apply for a perm European position? What are the success rates of gaining it? Cheers!
transcendental: I'm seriously considering the CTC route, thanks for taking the time to post the detailed reviews, what interests me is the random roster that flexipilots receive. I was under the impression that you had a standard 5/4 roster at Gatwick?
Another thing I would like to know is the potential of getting a perm position, how long does it typically take to be able to apply for a perm European position? What are the success rates of gaining it? Cheers!
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Rostering myth: easyJet operates a fixed pattern for all its pilots.
No it does not.
Flexicrew pilots are on FRV2 rules, constantly. Constantly random roster. If flown hard on this you are extremely likely to be fatigued. This can result in a random "pattern" of 5/2 which you definitely do not want. That can happen at any base. It happens at LGW and LPL. 5 earlies, 2 off, 5 earlies, 2 off can happen. It is knackering.
IF you managed to get a permanent UK contract, you would still remain on the FRV2 random roster for up to 4 seasons i.e. 2 years. After 2 years you should then go on to the fixed pattern of 5/3/5/4 i.e. 5 earlies, 3 off, 5 lates, 4 off. This is the fixed pattern that is talked about. However, there are constant complaints that the company tries its best t bend the rules and push the rostering agreements to get more and more out of this pattern using transitions.
Also, the company is now hell bent on removing this fixed pattern and replacing it with other patterns that will increase pilot flexibilty so that the company has greater freedom to roster the pilots the way it wants. There has been a company/union project, Merlin, running for about 8 months looking at this. As usual, the company has tied pay into other issues such as rostering, leave and lifestyle as a way to force pilots to give it what it wants. Then it aims low with insulting offers from the outset. This is standard negotiating practice for easyJet. What this project is currently aiming towards is 5/4 with unlimited transitions as the main pattern, then some other permutations. The way the project has been conducted, behind closed doors, is lacking. The final outcome remains to be seen.
So, fixed pattern simply isn't available to you in the UK at all on flexicrew, nor on a permanent UK contract until you've had 2 years on it. And they aren't giving out permanent UK contracts anyway, and probably won't do because there is an endless supply of people who, for some reason, in spite of the facts, want to do this to themselves.
Here's the real rub: When Flexicrew was the only thing on the table, it was the "new" thing and we had no heads up it was coming and were too far in to do anything but press on. We all felt pissed off by that. We were on the changeover point. If you are reading this or anything I've written, there is no such point for you. You are freely entering this system armed with more knowledge than I ever had about CTC, eJ and the Flexicrew contractor situation.
Ignorance, therefore, is not your defence any more. If you freely enter and choose this for yourself, there will be no sympathy for you at the other end when you are struggling to eat in a low hour month. What you are doing by entering this system is literally destroying terms and conditions in the industry. This is why I got off it as fast as I could.
There are multiple sides to this, but if you stopped signing up, the contractual conditions would eventually have to change.
No it does not.
Flexicrew pilots are on FRV2 rules, constantly. Constantly random roster. If flown hard on this you are extremely likely to be fatigued. This can result in a random "pattern" of 5/2 which you definitely do not want. That can happen at any base. It happens at LGW and LPL. 5 earlies, 2 off, 5 earlies, 2 off can happen. It is knackering.
IF you managed to get a permanent UK contract, you would still remain on the FRV2 random roster for up to 4 seasons i.e. 2 years. After 2 years you should then go on to the fixed pattern of 5/3/5/4 i.e. 5 earlies, 3 off, 5 lates, 4 off. This is the fixed pattern that is talked about. However, there are constant complaints that the company tries its best t bend the rules and push the rostering agreements to get more and more out of this pattern using transitions.
Also, the company is now hell bent on removing this fixed pattern and replacing it with other patterns that will increase pilot flexibilty so that the company has greater freedom to roster the pilots the way it wants. There has been a company/union project, Merlin, running for about 8 months looking at this. As usual, the company has tied pay into other issues such as rostering, leave and lifestyle as a way to force pilots to give it what it wants. Then it aims low with insulting offers from the outset. This is standard negotiating practice for easyJet. What this project is currently aiming towards is 5/4 with unlimited transitions as the main pattern, then some other permutations. The way the project has been conducted, behind closed doors, is lacking. The final outcome remains to be seen.
So, fixed pattern simply isn't available to you in the UK at all on flexicrew, nor on a permanent UK contract until you've had 2 years on it. And they aren't giving out permanent UK contracts anyway, and probably won't do because there is an endless supply of people who, for some reason, in spite of the facts, want to do this to themselves.
Here's the real rub: When Flexicrew was the only thing on the table, it was the "new" thing and we had no heads up it was coming and were too far in to do anything but press on. We all felt pissed off by that. We were on the changeover point. If you are reading this or anything I've written, there is no such point for you. You are freely entering this system armed with more knowledge than I ever had about CTC, eJ and the Flexicrew contractor situation.
Ignorance, therefore, is not your defence any more. If you freely enter and choose this for yourself, there will be no sympathy for you at the other end when you are struggling to eat in a low hour month. What you are doing by entering this system is literally destroying terms and conditions in the industry. This is why I got off it as fast as I could.
There are multiple sides to this, but if you stopped signing up, the contractual conditions would eventually have to change.
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Transcendental,
I've been investigating CTC as a typical early-20s student looking for a way into the industry. I just want to thank you for a comprehensive view into the life of a FlexiCrew 'employee'. It's unfortunate as, when looking into the possible routes for training, CTC seems to have such a 'fluid' system in place for placement of cadets as opposed to OAA and FTE who claim to place students but without any real pattern.
Apart from FlexiCrew, are many people placed through Cadet Entry, with repayment of their bond? All I've seen apart from eJ Flexi is a few cadets getting their own places at Monarch and that's about it..
I've been investigating CTC as a typical early-20s student looking for a way into the industry. I just want to thank you for a comprehensive view into the life of a FlexiCrew 'employee'. It's unfortunate as, when looking into the possible routes for training, CTC seems to have such a 'fluid' system in place for placement of cadets as opposed to OAA and FTE who claim to place students but without any real pattern.
Apart from FlexiCrew, are many people placed through Cadet Entry, with repayment of their bond? All I've seen apart from eJ Flexi is a few cadets getting their own places at Monarch and that's about it..
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Transcendental,
You make a very well written advocacy of your argument, and it is clearly comprehensive, honest, and extremely valuable to the discussion. Although it is embedded in the post, you said:
Which provided the context for what you have written in regards to this specific programme, and as it relates to this specific airline. The reason I mention that, is because I found myself reading the main body of your reply and frequently thinking to myself, "so what?"
I absolutely agree with you, and much of what you have written from your own experience and opinion as it relates to this particular programme, within the summary that it is significantly less than ideal for so many of the reasons you have eloquently highlighted. I don't want to do a line by line discussion of what you have said, not least because it is unnecessary, and I wouldn't specifically disagree with your observations. However I would like to make a few points for general consideration.
That is most certainly not the case with most airlines, let alone "all airlines." Splitting this point into two parts. Ab-initio pilot training is something that all but a handful of airlines have never had any "in house" involvement with. It has never been intrinsic to, or a part of their business. Most airlines have either recruited experienced pilots into vacant roles, or where the few that have had any ab-initio or cadet programmes, nearly all have always sourced that side of the business to commercial flight training schools. In my lifetime I can only think of one UK airline that ever moved from an "in house" training school to an outsourcing of that business, and that was BOAC/BEA/BA Hamble, when it decided to close down that arm of the business. Beyond ab-initio, most airlines do not outsource the vast majority of their flight training. It may well involve (and often does) the use of third party simulators etc. But the training is usually completely internal.
I would defer to your own experience in the specific example. However I would make the point that beyond that specific, most airlines often make a significant investment in both the pilots they employ and the cadets they may offer placements to. There are cost savings that negate the additional training burden, but if that were not the case, there really would be little incentive in such schemes.
Again, outside of the specific example, I can tell you that many airlines do spend significant sums (simulator time, ground school, uniforms, induction and admin' fixed costs) before these cadets ever set foot in the flightdeck.
Yes! This is a fast track route into an early airline pilot career apprenticeship. For the successful few it misses out many of the stepping stone placements and jobs that other successful aspirants might spend many many years of equally if not greater risk, cost and hardship, in aquiring.
Again, and for clarity, in the specific example and not necessarily generally.
This specific arrangement is undoubtably "less than ideal" but as I have already pointed out (and you have to) it has pretty much been the only game in town for the last few years. Whatever its drawbacks and failings, and you highlight many, the reality is that without this "opportunity" there would have been almost nothing. Terms such as "holding pools" and all the problems that result from them, would have been replaced with "holding lakes...seas...and oceans" as "advanced training" came to an almost total grinding halt. That an outlet for such a large number of trainees was sourced at all had to have been a significant and positive thing, when other options and choices weren't there for the taking.
Nobody was or is forced into taking what you descibe as a "Flexislave" contract. Once their CPL/IR/AQC is complete, cadets can take the qualification into the public arena (good luck there,) or elect to take the placements that may exist and be offered at that point in time. They may not be ideal, but when they are offered, are usually a great deal more than is being offered to other 200 hour fATPL holders.
For anybody reading this thread and considering the career paths open to them, they should research, research and keep researching. No matter how many times so many of us say it, there are no guarantees no matter how much you want them, wish there were, or consider it unfair that there aren't! There are significant (and for many people) enormous financial risks. It is an apprenticeship (at best) for the early years. The aquisition of a CPL/IR is not the golden ticket into the airlines historic and normal salary structure. Early success in obtaining an apprenticeship / placement, may very likely fail to cover your living/training/loan costs for some years subsequent to that placement.
You make a very well written advocacy of your argument, and it is clearly comprehensive, honest, and extremely valuable to the discussion. Although it is embedded in the post, you said:
So, if you bear all of the above in mind, you will see why I fundamentally disagree with the statement by a wannabe trainee that "Flexicrew was ideal" for cadets. It's not.
I absolutely agree with you, and much of what you have written from your own experience and opinion as it relates to this particular programme, within the summary that it is significantly less than ideal for so many of the reasons you have eloquently highlighted. I don't want to do a line by line discussion of what you have said, not least because it is unnecessary, and I wouldn't specifically disagree with your observations. However I would like to make a few points for general consideration.
The outsourcing of flight training by all airlines represents the major structural remodelling of pilot cost model.
In the current model, of which CTC are a key part, airlines make near zero investment in pilots.
Airlines do not spend anything up to the point that a CTC cadet sits in a flightdeck.
Prior to this point, almost every single cost is borne totally by the cadet, and all the risks attached to that cost are also borne by the cadet.
Under the current CTC TR arrangement, the TR funding is the only time "price" is shared between the cadet and CTC.
This specific arrangement is undoubtably "less than ideal" but as I have already pointed out (and you have to) it has pretty much been the only game in town for the last few years. Whatever its drawbacks and failings, and you highlight many, the reality is that without this "opportunity" there would have been almost nothing. Terms such as "holding pools" and all the problems that result from them, would have been replaced with "holding lakes...seas...and oceans" as "advanced training" came to an almost total grinding halt. That an outlet for such a large number of trainees was sourced at all had to have been a significant and positive thing, when other options and choices weren't there for the taking.
Nobody was or is forced into taking what you descibe as a "Flexislave" contract. Once their CPL/IR/AQC is complete, cadets can take the qualification into the public arena (good luck there,) or elect to take the placements that may exist and be offered at that point in time. They may not be ideal, but when they are offered, are usually a great deal more than is being offered to other 200 hour fATPL holders.
For anybody reading this thread and considering the career paths open to them, they should research, research and keep researching. No matter how many times so many of us say it, there are no guarantees no matter how much you want them, wish there were, or consider it unfair that there aren't! There are significant (and for many people) enormous financial risks. It is an apprenticeship (at best) for the early years. The aquisition of a CPL/IR is not the golden ticket into the airlines historic and normal salary structure. Early success in obtaining an apprenticeship / placement, may very likely fail to cover your living/training/loan costs for some years subsequent to that placement.
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B - Sure the scheme doesn't have to be ideal for the trainee, but that it's this low shouldn't just be shrugged off. No ex cadet in the system will tell anyone it's good. The criticism are myriad but similar. Even the CEO of eJ and the Ops Director actively avoid mentioning "Flexicrew". When challenged directly they rolled out stock management answers of "they knew what they were getting into.". No on in the company gives a toss about the welfare of Flexicrew pilots. Rostering will try whatever they want to, the head of pilot management will send out emails reminding people that basically they have no rights in the eJ system, and to even get the remote possibility of a base transfer process has taken over two years and even so, it's rubbish and there's plenty of people denied the move. The company has just forced a bunch of contractors to move to Southend from Luton, Stansted and Bristol, irrespective of the difficulties and costs involved for those pilots. No financial support whatsoever. Pathetic, childish bully boy tactics picking on the weakest and the ones with no union strength. It's a gutless approach to people management.
Use of the word "all" is innaccurate, fair enough, but consider this. eJ is now a feeder airline to others who will take pilots from them at some point. This includes Monarch, BA, Emirates etc. Airlines further down the chain benefit from reduced investment because the trainee paid for everything themselves. That's probably no different past a certain point in the "old" or traditional way of doing things, to be fair.
However, eJ has radically restructured its pilot costs. The cost of the RHS must be on the floor, with almost nowhere left to go, unless they actively cut wages. Actually they are. By not giving inflationary increases each year to either their permanent pilots or Flexicrew, they are continually cutting pilot costs. So, this achievement feeds their cost management "success" and this in turn damages and threatens their competitors who, in turn, must follow suit. This is the race to the bottom. This is what this system enables. It's a key part of it. This affects all airlines in the medium to long term, in the medium and short haul market.
Though you say most other airlines do not engage in this practice, look at what their recruitment status is. Monarch - took a handful of cadets and treated them decently. Now taking experienced and TR's bus pilots on 9/3 contracts but how long will that airline survive? Anyone's guess. Thomas Cook, Thompson, not much doing there. BA - following in the footsteps of easyJet. Outsourced cadet training. Re-engineering their internal pay scales with a threat of using the BMI purchase to create another, cheaper SH/MH carrier etc etc.
The airlines winning this battle are the ones who are willing to get to the bottom the quickest, and they are doing this in a way that is unchecked by the government, the regulators, the unions, the pilots and the trainees.
The notion of not being forced... Once you've walked with a guy more than half way into a tunnel, which way is he most likely to head to get out? Some choices aren't really choices, are they? The real choice is whether to go into this to take all the **** at the end.
When I was in TR at CTC, I bumped into some brand new cadets who were doing their ground school at Soton. They were the first tranche to do that. I was talking to them about things and I asked them what they were told by CTC about the state of affairs. One guy, I remember exactly who he is, told me that Daphne had told his intake that they didn't need to be concerned about Flexicrew because by the time they came out, the deals on the table wouldn't be flexicrew any more. Well, guess what? It is! Flexicrew is in eJ until 2014/15, when the supply contract comes to an end. Then, no doubt, terms will be renegotiated downwards, just like they were last time.
Use of the word "all" is innaccurate, fair enough, but consider this. eJ is now a feeder airline to others who will take pilots from them at some point. This includes Monarch, BA, Emirates etc. Airlines further down the chain benefit from reduced investment because the trainee paid for everything themselves. That's probably no different past a certain point in the "old" or traditional way of doing things, to be fair.
However, eJ has radically restructured its pilot costs. The cost of the RHS must be on the floor, with almost nowhere left to go, unless they actively cut wages. Actually they are. By not giving inflationary increases each year to either their permanent pilots or Flexicrew, they are continually cutting pilot costs. So, this achievement feeds their cost management "success" and this in turn damages and threatens their competitors who, in turn, must follow suit. This is the race to the bottom. This is what this system enables. It's a key part of it. This affects all airlines in the medium to long term, in the medium and short haul market.
Though you say most other airlines do not engage in this practice, look at what their recruitment status is. Monarch - took a handful of cadets and treated them decently. Now taking experienced and TR's bus pilots on 9/3 contracts but how long will that airline survive? Anyone's guess. Thomas Cook, Thompson, not much doing there. BA - following in the footsteps of easyJet. Outsourced cadet training. Re-engineering their internal pay scales with a threat of using the BMI purchase to create another, cheaper SH/MH carrier etc etc.
The airlines winning this battle are the ones who are willing to get to the bottom the quickest, and they are doing this in a way that is unchecked by the government, the regulators, the unions, the pilots and the trainees.
The notion of not being forced... Once you've walked with a guy more than half way into a tunnel, which way is he most likely to head to get out? Some choices aren't really choices, are they? The real choice is whether to go into this to take all the **** at the end.
When I was in TR at CTC, I bumped into some brand new cadets who were doing their ground school at Soton. They were the first tranche to do that. I was talking to them about things and I asked them what they were told by CTC about the state of affairs. One guy, I remember exactly who he is, told me that Daphne had told his intake that they didn't need to be concerned about Flexicrew because by the time they came out, the deals on the table wouldn't be flexicrew any more. Well, guess what? It is! Flexicrew is in eJ until 2014/15, when the supply contract comes to an end. Then, no doubt, terms will be renegotiated downwards, just like they were last time.
Training Bond on Flexicrew Placement
Wonderful posts everyone, definately very informative 
What happens to your training bond if you get placed through the Flexicrew route, as opposed to Cadet or Direct Entry? Does it get payed back, on what conditions or is it also forfitted - as it is with Direct Entry?
What happens to your training bond if you get placed through the Flexicrew route, as opposed to Cadet or Direct Entry? Does it get payed back, on what conditions or is it also forfitted - as it is with Direct Entry?
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Forget your bond. It's not getting "paid back". It never was. The only thing you were getting was a tax break on the borrowed sum. You were getting a reduced salary and a tax break on the remainder. You are paying your own loan and always were.
Under Flexicrew, you don't even get that. You are just paying the full whack repayments until they are done. Go to the continent on a perm eJ contract, the same applies. Come back into the UK via transfer, the same applies.
Your bond is just you paying up front for your training. It sits in a bank account in CTC and the interest allows them to buy all sorts of nice stuff. It's a good game for them.
95% of people are going to eJ Flexicrew. The ones in Qatar don't get bond repayments, they pay it back from their own untaxed wages.
Only Monarch recently went along the old lines of the tax break, and they aren't taking any more cadets at the moment, and their expansion isn't exactly big.
Under Flexicrew, you don't even get that. You are just paying the full whack repayments until they are done. Go to the continent on a perm eJ contract, the same applies. Come back into the UK via transfer, the same applies.
Your bond is just you paying up front for your training. It sits in a bank account in CTC and the interest allows them to buy all sorts of nice stuff. It's a good game for them.
95% of people are going to eJ Flexicrew. The ones in Qatar don't get bond repayments, they pay it back from their own untaxed wages.
Only Monarch recently went along the old lines of the tax break, and they aren't taking any more cadets at the moment, and their expansion isn't exactly big.
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Absolutely everything Transcendental says is entirely on the money.
Newbies, please realise now that neither Easyjet, CTC or dare I say it Balpa, are interested in making your life better or doing anything for you. A pay rise with Flexicrew is not going to happen and any permanent UK contracts, if they are offered again will be on terms and conditions woefully below those offered in the past.
Once this sentiment is well and truly locked away in that keen and eager mind of yours should you think about proceeding along this particular path.
Newbies, please realise now that neither Easyjet, CTC or dare I say it Balpa, are interested in making your life better or doing anything for you. A pay rise with Flexicrew is not going to happen and any permanent UK contracts, if they are offered again will be on terms and conditions woefully below those offered in the past.
Once this sentiment is well and truly locked away in that keen and eager mind of yours should you think about proceeding along this particular path.
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transcendental - brilliant posts and a must read for those with half a brain + looking into any form of airline training.
Aside from BA's scheme, I'd still say CTC is one of the best out there as it gets you on the A320. That statement, however, reflects how bad the industry now is, rather than how good CTC is!
There will still be many who couldn't give a monkeys, as the irony is that it's never been easier to get into jet airline flying!
Unbelievable.
Aside from BA's scheme, I'd still say CTC is one of the best out there as it gets you on the A320. That statement, however, reflects how bad the industry now is, rather than how good CTC is!
There will still be many who couldn't give a monkeys, as the irony is that it's never been easier to get into jet airline flying!
Unbelievable.
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Hi Guys.
Great posts. Loads of interesting reading.
I have been seriously considering CTC as a training provider but the info has kind of put me off a little. Could I just ask if there are any trainees training with CTC who can pitch in? Also, anyone on FlexiCrew who can give advice on woking conditions? I really don't mind hard work but bad conditions are never great!
Cheers all
Great posts. Loads of interesting reading.
I have been seriously considering CTC as a training provider but the info has kind of put me off a little. Could I just ask if there are any trainees training with CTC who can pitch in? Also, anyone on FlexiCrew who can give advice on woking conditions? I really don't mind hard work but bad conditions are never great!
Cheers all
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Do you know about any cadets that have been fired during or after the completion of the TR? Or, let's say, before 1 year with EZY. If so, what happened with them? Did CTC look for another airline for them?
And a second question, what happens with the security bond under the Flexicrew contract? Do you get paid repayments (let's say, 1000 pounds a month) + 42 pounds an hour (they are supposed to give you your money back, isn't it?)? What happens then with "your" security bond?
And a second question, what happens with the security bond under the Flexicrew contract? Do you get paid repayments (let's say, 1000 pounds a month) + 42 pounds an hour (they are supposed to give you your money back, isn't it?)? What happens then with "your" security bond?
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Yes there have been cadets " let go " or fired if you will, pre and post line check and a couple up to the end of the first 8 months, prior to being offered a flexi crew contract. I don't know what happened after they left, the arrangement I'm sure was between them and CTC.
As has been previously mentioned forget about the "bond", all it is is the training costs CTC require for the course, if you end up on flex crew you don't see any bond repayment. The hourly rate is all you get, hope that's clear enough for anyone wondering.
As has been previously mentioned forget about the "bond", all it is is the training costs CTC require for the course, if you end up on flex crew you don't see any bond repayment. The hourly rate is all you get, hope that's clear enough for anyone wondering.
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Hi good morning,
Could someone verify if ctc still hold phase 4 of the assessment process. I've read through the forum and some people a few years ago have had a sim session, whilst others have been told they're successful after 2 & 3.
Also ctc have no information regarding phase 4 on their website and suggest phase 3 is the final Part.
I also understand some people think the assessment at ctc is less rigorous that before and much easier to get into. Have the standards dropped. Why would this be and What do you think of this?
Anymore info would be benificial to myself and anyone else thinking of the cadet programme.
Could someone verify if ctc still hold phase 4 of the assessment process. I've read through the forum and some people a few years ago have had a sim session, whilst others have been told they're successful after 2 & 3.
Also ctc have no information regarding phase 4 on their website and suggest phase 3 is the final Part.
I also understand some people think the assessment at ctc is less rigorous that before and much easier to get into. Have the standards dropped. Why would this be and What do you think of this?
Anymore info would be benificial to myself and anyone else thinking of the cadet programme.
Hi FlyingEagle21
If you are applying for the CTC Wings Cadet Programme, then there are only 3 phases. As far as I know CTC only holds a phase 4 for pilots applying on the APL programme - they already hold a licence.
Regards
If you are applying for the CTC Wings Cadet Programme, then there are only 3 phases. As far as I know CTC only holds a phase 4 for pilots applying on the APL programme - they already hold a licence.
Regards
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Hello all,
I was just wondering could anyone tell me how difficult it is to get into the CTC wings programme?
I was just reading on pilotjobsnetwork.com that the overall success rate for a potential candidate is 1.5-2 %. Is this true?
I was just wondering could anyone tell me how difficult it is to get into the CTC wings programme?
I was just reading on pilotjobsnetwork.com that the overall success rate for a potential candidate is 1.5-2 %. Is this true?