The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Look, the only reason that people are on here posting words of caution is that we've all seen the starry eyed wannabe come out of training, be it from CTC or wherever else, with huge loans and no real sensible thought out back up plan. They believe the hype told to them by the training organisation, that after 6 months on type they'll be taken on for good and finally get a decent wage, or that another airline will be crying out for that 400hour + ( insert type rating here) guy that you are.
Well that was the world of a few years ago, but it isn't now and not for the forseeable future. So please, please, don't put all your eggs in one basket. THAT is all people are trying to say, take it from guys who are seeing things from the other side.
WBV
ps and it's not that everyone is a starry eyed dreamer, but it is exactly that that most wannabes DO not know all the facts and what is happening in the industry that causes them to make decisions based on insufficient info.
Well that was the world of a few years ago, but it isn't now and not for the forseeable future. So please, please, don't put all your eggs in one basket. THAT is all people are trying to say, take it from guys who are seeing things from the other side.
WBV
ps and it's not that everyone is a starry eyed dreamer, but it is exactly that that most wannabes DO not know all the facts and what is happening in the industry that causes them to make decisions based on insufficient info.
Last edited by Wing_Bound_Vortex; 16th Apr 2009 at 23:13. Reason: add a p.s......
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There are so many people on this forum, giving it their best to put potentially excellent pilots off from commencing their training.
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Originally Posted by nosponsor
The 100 or so unemployed CTC cadets dumped at the end of Oct will be up for re-employment the following April. Except there is no longer 100, there are even more, since its been a full 12 months of cadet production at CTC. The new guys will be given preference, and so on.
Originally Posted by nosponsor
So maybe there are now 200 Cadets (i'm guessing at that figure, since I don't know their course numbers)?
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Alot of you need to go see a therapist or something because you are not making sense. You are deluded. You will ruin your families lives. You are absolutely mad. But hey, at least YOU will get your little hoilday in New Zealand flying aeroplanes, get some time expiring licenses and be able to say you tried. I wouldn't hire any of you to fly a plane, you demonstrate SERIOUS Confirmation Bias ( refers to our tendency to seek evidence that will confirm our own opinion, or ignore or devalue that which does not. See also: Analysis, Intelligence analysis.
)- it's like navigation: don't convince yourself you are somewhere you want to be, you are where you are - even if it is 'lost'.
Absolutely right.
Yeah, you don't get much better than first time, first series passes in every flight test and over 90% average in ATPLs all with first time passes like most people I know have and still absolutely nothing. It is irrelevant. It couldn't be more meaningless.
Mattyh1986, one minute you are saying should you do the selection or not, the next you are saying anyone who says that it is a VERY bad idea, is just being negative. Do what you like mate, I am just offering the harsh reality.
Alot of wannabes need to get real. Whether you do the training or not ALOT of you, whether you do your training at OAA, FTE, Cabair or EVEN AMAZING, WONDERFUL CTC are going to stay as just that - a wannabe. It's nothing personal, it's just life.
Now go and get your loans boys and girls because you wont have taken a blind bit of notice, you know best and your gut feeling is always right. Everything always goes to plan and you CAN change the world by the power of positive thought.
Seriously though, good luck to all of you, you WILL need it by the ton.
)- it's like navigation: don't convince yourself you are somewhere you want to be, you are where you are - even if it is 'lost'.
It says nothing about the quality of the individual, and everything about the state of the industry and the type of people who hold management positions in airlines like easyjet.
All the "who's the best pilot" c
p you saw in Top Gun doesn't count for anything when you are trying to keep a job in the real world.
p you saw in Top Gun doesn't count for anything when you are trying to keep a job in the real world.
Mattyh1986, one minute you are saying should you do the selection or not, the next you are saying anyone who says that it is a VERY bad idea, is just being negative. Do what you like mate, I am just offering the harsh reality.
Alot of wannabes need to get real. Whether you do the training or not ALOT of you, whether you do your training at OAA, FTE, Cabair or EVEN AMAZING, WONDERFUL CTC are going to stay as just that - a wannabe. It's nothing personal, it's just life.
Now go and get your loans boys and girls because you wont have taken a blind bit of notice, you know best and your gut feeling is always right. Everything always goes to plan and you CAN change the world by the power of positive thought.
Seriously though, good luck to all of you, you WILL need it by the ton.
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99
Nothing wrong with the theory. My understanding from those I know from previous CTC courses was around 12 per course, up from 6 when the first courses ran. I don't know if this is now the case (one would hope not).
However, from other posts on here, I see 70 cadets were going to EZY for the summer, plus the others returning. You talk of 50+ in the holding pool. So although the numbers may be a little off, they are ball-park. Enough to illustrate the potential issues 12-24-36 months down the line if the present economy continues, fleets are not expanded, and 6 months of summer flying continues.
Interesting to see from the CTC website that they now offer self-funded TRs. Things must be quiet at Nursling
Nothing wrong with the theory. My understanding from those I know from previous CTC courses was around 12 per course, up from 6 when the first courses ran. I don't know if this is now the case (one would hope not).
However, from other posts on here, I see 70 cadets were going to EZY for the summer, plus the others returning. You talk of 50+ in the holding pool. So although the numbers may be a little off, they are ball-park. Enough to illustrate the potential issues 12-24-36 months down the line if the present economy continues, fleets are not expanded, and 6 months of summer flying continues.
Interesting to see from the CTC website that they now offer self-funded TRs. Things must be quiet at Nursling
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Nevilinio,
If you were to look at the people offering their advice, support and help regarding the state of the industry over here in the UK at the moment, you'll see that they're all people who have been through and finished with CTC. Most of them are in full time jobs with their unfrozen ATPL, myself included... so please don't patronise me with your chat of trying for McDonalds.
You're in NZ, the weather is great, you're going for a jolly upto buzz the Sky Tower every so often before heading off to The Bank to do some wildlife spotting happy in the little fuzzy world created by the CTC spin machine that there are plenty of jobs available for you when you finish your training in a years time.
However, over here things are quite different.
I'm not saying things are at an apocalyptic level, but they are certainly not brilliant. XL pilots with thousands of hours who can't find a job here are having to move to **** holes like Lagos to fly (I had dinner with one the other day). Virgin are talking of chopping 60 pilots. Friends who have been in the British Airways DEC Hold Pool for nearly a year are just happy that BA have extended it to 18 months as there is zero recruitment.
What everyone is trying to say is that yes, you'll finish your course and get a type rating at some point, maybe a year later... but when you finish your time on the Flexi Wings scheme, you'll be joining the pile of (by then) hundreds of type-rated-but-low-hours pilots on the CV pile.... with a fecking massive loan to pay off.
As said previously, easyJet will not expand like they did previously. There has to be a saturation point in the market. Even if they do, it will be FlexiWings that feeds it.... good luck getting a mortage on a temp contract like that.
As negative as The Beak sounds, he/she has some very good points. We've got our full time jobs, we're fine thanks (for the time being anyways!). We're just trying to help you guys realise that it's not all as wonderful as CTC paint.
If you were to look at the people offering their advice, support and help regarding the state of the industry over here in the UK at the moment, you'll see that they're all people who have been through and finished with CTC. Most of them are in full time jobs with their unfrozen ATPL, myself included... so please don't patronise me with your chat of trying for McDonalds.
You're in NZ, the weather is great, you're going for a jolly upto buzz the Sky Tower every so often before heading off to The Bank to do some wildlife spotting happy in the little fuzzy world created by the CTC spin machine that there are plenty of jobs available for you when you finish your training in a years time.
However, over here things are quite different.
I'm not saying things are at an apocalyptic level, but they are certainly not brilliant. XL pilots with thousands of hours who can't find a job here are having to move to **** holes like Lagos to fly (I had dinner with one the other day). Virgin are talking of chopping 60 pilots. Friends who have been in the British Airways DEC Hold Pool for nearly a year are just happy that BA have extended it to 18 months as there is zero recruitment.
What everyone is trying to say is that yes, you'll finish your course and get a type rating at some point, maybe a year later... but when you finish your time on the Flexi Wings scheme, you'll be joining the pile of (by then) hundreds of type-rated-but-low-hours pilots on the CV pile.... with a fecking massive loan to pay off.
As said previously, easyJet will not expand like they did previously. There has to be a saturation point in the market. Even if they do, it will be FlexiWings that feeds it.... good luck getting a mortage on a temp contract like that.
As negative as The Beak sounds, he/she has some very good points. We've got our full time jobs, we're fine thanks (for the time being anyways!). We're just trying to help you guys realise that it's not all as wonderful as CTC paint.
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The situation is global as is the current recession/ depression. I would imagine aircraft currently on order are to replace ageing aircraft like at BA not to add to fleets. However that could just be my imagination running away with me. I would strongly recommend holding tight for a bit and consider getting a PPL. That will help you make progress whilst watching things run there course and will not hinder you at all with the likes of CTC, FTE, OAA etc. Even if you complete the CTC process, you don't have to sign up straight away - they have said you meet the standard and that should stand for a year or two while you assess things. Unless they are being pushy sales people which is surely not the way a pilot training organisation would be, would it?
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99jolegg,
I think nosponser was talking about post Oct09. Not Oct08. There were only a handful of guys dumped in 08, most of them have found themselves jobs. In Oct09 after this summer it will be very different numbers (in the region of 100). In early 2010 the guys dumped in 09 looking for another summer and the new graduates ready for summer 2010 could well be getting on for 200 people. Thats a lot.
I think nosponser was talking about post Oct09. Not Oct08. There were only a handful of guys dumped in 08, most of them have found themselves jobs. In Oct09 after this summer it will be very different numbers (in the region of 100). In early 2010 the guys dumped in 09 looking for another summer and the new graduates ready for summer 2010 could well be getting on for 200 people. Thats a lot.
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Thanks the Beak for the answer....
I'm a bit relectant to getting a PPL if I do plan on going with CTC in the end as I'll have to do it twice, and pay for ti twice....
The whole question with CTC is that, in the 2 years it takes you to get through the course, will the sutuation be better or worse.....
Hard to tell....
I'm a bit relectant to getting a PPL if I do plan on going with CTC in the end as I'll have to do it twice, and pay for ti twice....
The whole question with CTC is that, in the 2 years it takes you to get through the course, will the sutuation be better or worse.....
Hard to tell....
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employment
yes I totally agree with having a profession,and I dont have to explain to the likes of 'the beak' what mine is,but trust me buddy i can get a well paid job whenever i want,but u miss my point.im saying that theres a good chance that i wont get a job as a pilot,i am not blinded by anything,especially ray bans,and my 'preparation',was far from idealastic.but i know i can get a job with a 1st class masters degree in my industry-fact.what "fool" is applying for jobs in tesco telling them your a pilot?u can blag a cv a bit their not the CIA!
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Zetecy - That is the $64,000 question. No-one really knows when things are likely to pick up.
People can have educated guesses (which many have on here) but that is just it, it is guess work. Albeit educated.
People can have educated guesses (which many have on here) but that is just it, it is guess work. Albeit educated.
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It indeed would only be a guess for anyone. But alot of things are being undone in the airline world with pilots being laid off, pilots having to bond into airlines in countries where they otherwise wouldn't consider in a million years, pilots having to work on a contract basis, unpaid leave, paying to work - It has all changed forever and it would take a global strike to change it. The effect is to make surplus pilots, with plenty of experience, willing to take something rather than nothing on a time to time basis. That in turn makes the road to becoming an ACTUAL airline pilot a VERY uncertain, unpredictable and hugely risky one. As an opinion and not proclaimed fact, I would recommend not training for a good few years.
Taking advice from people who too want to train to be a pilot is also risky - Emotion can really cloud ones judgement, it does in everything, from pilot training to women/ men. You guys should look into what confirmation bias actually is on the internet, just type define:confirmation bias - And see if you can how the basis of your opinions and responses are in there a little.
With regards to getting a PPL and having to pay for it twice, that is not the case, there is the ability to do a shorter course and have money reimbursed. And the opportunity cost of doing it that way is worth it......IN MY OPINION.
Taking advice from people who too want to train to be a pilot is also risky - Emotion can really cloud ones judgement, it does in everything, from pilot training to women/ men. You guys should look into what confirmation bias actually is on the internet, just type define:confirmation bias - And see if you can how the basis of your opinions and responses are in there a little.
With regards to getting a PPL and having to pay for it twice, that is not the case, there is the ability to do a shorter course and have money reimbursed. And the opportunity cost of doing it that way is worth it......IN MY OPINION.
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Well I have to say, you are really making me think twice about this course.....
And I might look into getting a PPL first and then thinking of doing CTC afterwards....
And I might look into getting a PPL first and then thinking of doing CTC afterwards....
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Negativity
The beak, im not saying anyone saying its a bad idea is just being negative, I'm trying to say that things like this are not needed:
"Alot of you need to go see a therapist or something because you are not making sense. You are deluded. You will ruin your families lives. You are absolutely mad. But hey, at least YOU will get your little hoilday in New Zealand flying aeroplanes, get some time expiring licenses and be able to say you tried"
I appreciate advice and a bit of realism but I don't see how this helps, its like your are trying to scare people off. These sort of statements "you will ruin your families lives" don't help anyone. I appreciate the industry is in a bad way at the moment and I have full sympathy for anyone struggling right now, and nobody knows what the economy is going to do next or how long its going to take recover.
I am not living in dream land and I am not trying to convince myself that Its all going to be rosy, I am listening to everything everybody is saying and I think there are a lot of valid points and its really making me seriously question my next move, which is the whole point of this anyway.
Its a good idea to remain objective, and although people have some good theories of how the situation is going to develop nobody actually knows for sure. So you shouldn't tell people that they are about to ruin their families lives. Just as your should not tell people they are guaranteed a job and its all going to be happy days from here on out.
"Alot of you need to go see a therapist or something because you are not making sense. You are deluded. You will ruin your families lives. You are absolutely mad. But hey, at least YOU will get your little hoilday in New Zealand flying aeroplanes, get some time expiring licenses and be able to say you tried"
I appreciate advice and a bit of realism but I don't see how this helps, its like your are trying to scare people off. These sort of statements "you will ruin your families lives" don't help anyone. I appreciate the industry is in a bad way at the moment and I have full sympathy for anyone struggling right now, and nobody knows what the economy is going to do next or how long its going to take recover.
I am not living in dream land and I am not trying to convince myself that Its all going to be rosy, I am listening to everything everybody is saying and I think there are a lot of valid points and its really making me seriously question my next move, which is the whole point of this anyway.
Its a good idea to remain objective, and although people have some good theories of how the situation is going to develop nobody actually knows for sure. So you shouldn't tell people that they are about to ruin their families lives. Just as your should not tell people they are guaranteed a job and its all going to be happy days from here on out.
negitivity
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Ah the classic and renowned cycle of aviation! Good times then bad times then good times then bad times. Currently we are in a bad time and if the cycle will reveal itself as it always has before... the good times will follow. A guess but a guess which I am fairly confident about based on the past (we have seen it ALL before). So when will it happen? The good times that is! Goodness knows but a stern talk to CTC would be a good plan (I always found them to be fairly honest and open). Their future relies on successful placement of candidates which relies on a successful industry so they will have experienced, informed and connected people planning for the future. They might even give some good advice (imagine that!)! Obviously take their advice with open eyes as their motivation will be slightly different to yours but they probably aren't going to blatantly lie. A good chat to other schools for their opinions would be a plan. If you know pilots or aviation people whose judgment you trust, perhaps chat to them. Read flight international and the flight global web site. Maybe a newspaper or two or the economist cause the aviation industry's success is directly linked to the economy. Chat to an economist, a teacher, your dad, your mom, they have age, experience and perhaps knowledge on their side! Then and only then, armed with as much info as you can be bothered to gather, make your own decision.
I have no advice as I haven't done any of that research. I'm lucky enough to have been though all this already and am enjoying the rewards of my research and efforts. I have what I consider to be a brilliant job and hopefully it is secure enough to ride out the storm so I have other things to find out about!
Please please please get ideas from people on here but don't just blindly take their advice (no matter how persistent they seem to want to be!!)!! Would you really take advice from a total stranger on the street?! This is an anonymous rumor network! The key is in the name! Take ideas and thoughts from here, research good advice from trusted / known sources and make your own plan!
On a side note, don't give up the "Rayban" dream either! Everyone always remarks on how wanabees have "rose tinted glasses". Be proud of that! Believe me, you will always need them and they may even help the making of your success. Those glasses, like wine glasses, are good for many aspects of life!! The glasses and the desire to do the job are what makes our industry different and such a great place to be! I'm sure you have heard it before.. get a bunch of pilots together and they will talk aviation, get a bunch of accountants together and they will talk of anything but work! We are very lucky!!
I have no advice as I haven't done any of that research. I'm lucky enough to have been though all this already and am enjoying the rewards of my research and efforts. I have what I consider to be a brilliant job and hopefully it is secure enough to ride out the storm so I have other things to find out about!
Please please please get ideas from people on here but don't just blindly take their advice (no matter how persistent they seem to want to be!!)!! Would you really take advice from a total stranger on the street?! This is an anonymous rumor network! The key is in the name! Take ideas and thoughts from here, research good advice from trusted / known sources and make your own plan!
On a side note, don't give up the "Rayban" dream either! Everyone always remarks on how wanabees have "rose tinted glasses". Be proud of that! Believe me, you will always need them and they may even help the making of your success. Those glasses, like wine glasses, are good for many aspects of life!! The glasses and the desire to do the job are what makes our industry different and such a great place to be! I'm sure you have heard it before.. get a bunch of pilots together and they will talk aviation, get a bunch of accountants together and they will talk of anything but work! We are very lucky!!
Some top stuff on here since last night - very entertaining reading after an early 4-sector slog.
What struck me is the reaction of people here to what they consider 'negativity'. The big problem is that things ARE now a lot more negative than they were a few years ago. People who have been through the course and contribute to this thread are not doing it just to irritate you and try to put you off training to fly. What would we have to achieve by doing that? I have a job and am happy. Uneasy about the industry and what the future holds, but generally happy. I'm not bothered whether you want to train or not, but what I AM bothered about is - having been there and done that - seeing wannabes fall hook, line and sinker for the FTO marketing nonsense and the bleating about a global shortage of airline pilots, etc etc. Please understand that the best people to learn about the course from, are people who have done it. People who can give you an objective, unbiased view of what it's like, what the job is like afterwards, and what it's like to shoulder that debt for 7 years (or longer) of your life. This is the kind of thing you don't hear about at dressed-up sales pitches and meet-and-greets. Understand that there is a difference between negativity and realism. Things ARE negative at the moment - that's the way it is. Please take this in the way that it's intended - not trying to preach or be patronising, just trying to be helpful. To those of you wise enough to do your research and think long and hard before committing to the course, like mattyh1986, well done - if you really feel it's for you, then do it, and I genuinely wish you the very best of luck with it.
Nothing will change my personal viewpoint that to risk your parents' home on training to enter a volatile industry that has thousands of experienced, qualified people out of work, during such a disastrous time for the economy, is a completely ludicrous thing to do. One of my father's colleagues has a son who started at one of the big integrated FTOs not too far back. He'd been taken in by the PR and marketing hype and remortgaged his house to enable his son to train. He is now in a constant state of worry at whether he'll still have a roof over his head in a couple of years' time once the repayments are due to start and his son can't even get a job stacking shelves. It's happening, and I don't know what it takes for some people to wake up and realise this. That £60k isn't just a number on a piece of paper that you can come back to another day. It's real money that you have to pay back, and a horrendously big chunk of real money at that. And when you find you can't, someone WILL come after you for whatever you've got it secured on. Think how you'd feel if you were helping your parents pack their car with whatever belongings they hadn't had repossessed to drive away from their lovely house for the last time after handing the keys to some faceless bank, with nowhere to go to. Is it a risk worth taking, for a "dream"? It's not like the old days when the money was unsecured, and believe me that burden is bad enough.
22 from EZY - 15 of which were Wings Cadets, the rest Wings ATP. I believe it was 8 at Monarch, comprising 7 cadets and 1 ATP. Total 30. I don't know where you got this 90% figure from, but ONE went to Gulf Air, TWO went to EZY Switzerland and about 14, I believe, went to Aer Lingus. The rest either dropped off the radar or are going back to EZY this summer on FlexiCrew terms.
What struck me is the reaction of people here to what they consider 'negativity'. The big problem is that things ARE now a lot more negative than they were a few years ago. People who have been through the course and contribute to this thread are not doing it just to irritate you and try to put you off training to fly. What would we have to achieve by doing that? I have a job and am happy. Uneasy about the industry and what the future holds, but generally happy. I'm not bothered whether you want to train or not, but what I AM bothered about is - having been there and done that - seeing wannabes fall hook, line and sinker for the FTO marketing nonsense and the bleating about a global shortage of airline pilots, etc etc. Please understand that the best people to learn about the course from, are people who have done it. People who can give you an objective, unbiased view of what it's like, what the job is like afterwards, and what it's like to shoulder that debt for 7 years (or longer) of your life. This is the kind of thing you don't hear about at dressed-up sales pitches and meet-and-greets. Understand that there is a difference between negativity and realism. Things ARE negative at the moment - that's the way it is. Please take this in the way that it's intended - not trying to preach or be patronising, just trying to be helpful. To those of you wise enough to do your research and think long and hard before committing to the course, like mattyh1986, well done - if you really feel it's for you, then do it, and I genuinely wish you the very best of luck with it.
Nothing will change my personal viewpoint that to risk your parents' home on training to enter a volatile industry that has thousands of experienced, qualified people out of work, during such a disastrous time for the economy, is a completely ludicrous thing to do. One of my father's colleagues has a son who started at one of the big integrated FTOs not too far back. He'd been taken in by the PR and marketing hype and remortgaged his house to enable his son to train. He is now in a constant state of worry at whether he'll still have a roof over his head in a couple of years' time once the repayments are due to start and his son can't even get a job stacking shelves. It's happening, and I don't know what it takes for some people to wake up and realise this. That £60k isn't just a number on a piece of paper that you can come back to another day. It's real money that you have to pay back, and a horrendously big chunk of real money at that. And when you find you can't, someone WILL come after you for whatever you've got it secured on. Think how you'd feel if you were helping your parents pack their car with whatever belongings they hadn't had repossessed to drive away from their lovely house for the last time after handing the keys to some faceless bank, with nowhere to go to. Is it a risk worth taking, for a "dream"? It's not like the old days when the money was unsecured, and believe me that burden is bad enough.
Originally Posted by 99jolegg
Is any of this really true? Wasn't the number of cadets "dumped" around 32? Around 20 odd from EZY and 11 odd from MON? Haven't 90% of them already been re-employed at Aer Lingus, Gulf Air and EZY Swiss?
Last edited by Zippy Monster; 17th Apr 2009 at 15:10. Reason: Realised I can't do basic maths. 22+8=30!!