Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?

[father murry]

Can any one shed any light on just how successfull the new Oxford APP students are on getting jobs within 6 months of graduating?

I hear that alot are getting employed. Is it as a direct result of the APP or is it just timing?

Have they dropped the old style intergrated students out of their `Airline recomendation pile` cos i know loads who are still waiting and watching as the new and improved APP guys pass them by on the way to pick up their ID passes!

[lscajp]

Hello,

I would be interested in this too as i'm considering the APP.

Thanks,

Charlie

[Hobo]

Some info at:

www.oxfordaviation.net

Hidden away in "Career" Link then "Job Notice Board" - Most of these were APP I think.

[father murry]

Thanks Dr Pep.

It is quite amazing how much this industry is a complete lottery for new for pilots.

I graduated from Oxford in 2002 and since then they have done `0` for me. My life has effectivly been on hold for over 3 years networking, applying for jobs, reading everything i can about where jobs might be comming up, shelling out to stay current, paying vast sums of money on plane tickets - hotels to attend interviews and sim checks and have had 3 job offers as a result - that all ultimatly fell through in the last stages due to other pilots pitching up last minuite with a hundred or so more hours than me.

It all dawned on me the other day when i was in Oxford and i herd a 22 year old lad who had graduated in early December 2004 commenting to another student that `the last 3 weeks since Oxford reccommended me to BA its been awful, in fact its like ive been on tender hooks, waiting for them to finally get round to offering me the job!`

22 years old, 3 WEEKS, Oxford reccommended me, B.A., !!!

`Live a little - live a lotto!`

[Maude Charlee]

Have no fears. OAT 'old boys' are still in the running and being put forward by the school. Just don't lose touch with your old instructors and become a distant memory because you never know who might mention your name at an opportune time.

[father murry]

thanks friend but try tellin` that to the bank manager

[Air of Despair]

The best way to assess the success of the APP is to visit the individual courses web sites.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/info/news/websites.htm

A word of warning though, be prepared to feel very sick!

Thomas Cook, BA, Flightline, Excel and Flybe have all approached OAT for graduates in the last four months. It must be said that OAT are still putting forward non-APP graduates for some of these positions, most notably flybe last week. I believe that 60 people were called forward for interview and that about 25 were selected. Those with first time IR passes have gone straight on to the 146 out of Birmingham (no sim check) for a short term contract before moving on to the Q400. Those without a first time pass (probably victims of the ndb at EGBJ) need to pass a sim check before taking up type rating courses on the Q400.

The schools hold the key to low houred recruitment. Many of the airlines no longer have the capacity to sift through the thousands of CV's they receive and would much rather approach the schools for recommendations. If you don't believe me ask the airlines next time you call them! I do know of a couple of guys who have got a job through the good old CV so it is not dead yet as a way of getting that first job, but I have a horrible feeling with CTC and the APP that its day may well be numbered.

Best of luck and keep plugging away, if you want it badly enough you'll get there in the end.

A of D

[BugSpeed]

The thing to remember:

Oxford will not get you a job by itself

You have to do ALOT of work yourself be you a modular or APP graduate.

The long and short of the APP v Modular debate is this (assuming the modular course was entirely at one school): you end up with the same license and the majority of employers couldn't give a stuff so long as you are capable of passing an initial type rating and you are the sort of guy or girl who the interviewer feels they could sit next to for 2 weeks at a time!

You have to be proactive, not reactive in this industry guys and girls; just remember that.

BugSpeed

[randomair]

just to give you an idea!!!

my course recently graduated in december and out of 11 students 7 of us have already got jobs!!

but as someone said its timing!

[Dodgy Dutchman]

Integrated or modular

Bugspeed,

Sorry mate, but I'm not entirely convinced that a modular trained CPL is considered equally as opposed to an integrated trained pilot. I've heard a lot of bad stories from modular pilots who are desperately trying to get a job...

I've been given the advise: If you can get the funding, go to Oxford. If anyone disagrees, please speak up because I'm not yet fully convinced myself

[Air of Despair]

DD,

All I will say is that if you can get the whopping amount of cash together then OAT is the place to go. I can hear some Pruners grumbling and getting on their soap boxes so let me clarify before I spark off a furious debate which has been done to death on these forums. Yes the standard of training at OAT is pretty good but no better than you would expect else where, yes it's a lot of money and yes you will leave with the same small pretty blue license as you would get had you been a modular student.

The APP scheme is relatively new and Oxford have basically put all their eggs in one basket and need to make it a roaring success (partly to justify the cost). It is therefore in their interests to get you a job. OAT are still putting forward some of their old graduates but for every AP student they put forward you can bet that there are4-5 APP grads put forward. The APP student has also done a first officer fundamentals course and a JOT course after the MCC. Therefore they appear better qualified than your average integrated student, whether they are is anyones guess. As random air said 7 out of 11 APP graduates on his course have already got jobs in a short space of time so I guess that answers that. From the info I get those numbers are pretty similar on all of the APP courses that have finished so far. Most of us would have given our left pod to get a job within 6 months of finishing.

So, if you can scrape the cash together then go to OAT, not because it is any better than anywhere else but simply because they have to make a success of the APP.

Good luck what ever you decide.

[Dodgy Dutchman]

Thanks AoD!

Now I just need to convince everybody else

I've been to one of their seminars and although the story sounds very reasonable and realistic, I can imagine for that amount of money you would like to shop somewhere else first before you commit yourself

Anyway, I've heard that now would be the best time to commit. The airlines are climbing out of the dip again.

DD

[BigAir]

DD,

Having been one of the Lucky APP guys I can vouch that I do think the course was value for money in terms of it delivered what I wanted and more, I got a job soon after graduating and I am not in the minority.

A couple of points to note. Oxford can only do so much for you, they have got people through doors but you still need to go through the airlines process - this is down to the individual and just because you are APP does by no means garauntee you a job. However, to Oxfords credit their selection process (and possibly the cost of integrated training) weeds out a lot of the unsuitables or people not 110% committed, which in turn has meant a consistent product going for selection and getting chosen. I feel sorry for airline recruiters as there really is not a lot to differentiate between us wet behind the ear graduates sometimes.

Second point is you mention Now is the time to commit.... you will only know the answer to that in 18 months time if the market is as is. Personally Spring to Summer 2003 was the time to commit which is what the graduating APP's all did, we got our timing right and there are jobs in the market place now. Wether that will last for another 18 months who knows, but unfortunately a fair amount of fortune telling is needed as to when you should start your training and to base it on the current marketplace needs caution.... especially when you consider in 18 months time you will be in the shadow of the EU age legislation and no one can predict what that will do to the Market.

I highly recommend Oxford if you are looking at Integrated training though! They won't let you down.

BigAir

[winch launch]

oxford for people considering modular

I had the chance to start flying at an early age, and at that time I had no clue about all those modular vs APP vs integrated route to a job. So here I am right now, at 19 years old with a French theoretical ATPL almost completed, a PPL and a para dropping pilot “job” for week ends which builds up my hours fairly fast. I am like everyone, I want to make the best choices to find a job once I am done with the training, but as I had already too many hours for an APP/integrated course I am gonna stick with the modular route. I read that some people having first pass IR at oxford don t have to go through some steps at airline selections and that other students get recommendation letters. Can I get all those things if I do a CPL-IR-MCC-JOC at oxford but as a modular student? I mean, talking about those recommendation letters does oxford give them to the best students whatever there course type is (basically looking at your qualities as a pilot) or is it all for the APP because they have done an APP course and are more interesting for OAT financially.

Enlighten me please

Winch

[Ride the Fire]

Getting into the pilot business on low hours is a risky and costly business. I believe it comes down to two very important factors. Number no1 is ability and not far behind is cash flow. If you are SURE on your ability and have the CASH to fund training without a doubt choose Oxford. They sorted me out and I have no complaints. The training is Top quality and as long as you are good the world is your oyster.
big ups oxford - good choice!!

[scroggs]

Much as it pains me to say this, it does appear that more and more airlines are delegating part of their ab-initio pilot recruiting process to the major integrated schools; that is Oxford, FTE Jerez, CTC and Cabair. I think that they are shortsighted and, in fact, plain wrong if they decide only to recruit from these sources, but I can't deny that it's happening.

The ramifications for modular students and schools are not good, I'm afraid, although the very best of both will always get through. I can see a day when, by default, these four schools (or similar new ventures) will have tied up the vast majority of the commercial training market. That means that the days of the sub-£100,000 ATPL are now distinctly numbered.

Scroggs

[Keith.Williams.]

It is true that a growing number of airlines are delegating the initial stages of their selection process to some of the schools. This trend is certainly unfair to those schools which are not selected by the airlines. But at the end of the day the solution lies with the management of the non-favoured schools. They must work harder to establish the necessary links and make themselves known to the airlines.

This trend does not mean that only the integrated students will be put forward. The favoured schools have a vested interest in protecting their positions by putting forward only their best students. A number of EPTA students were put forward as part of the CABAIR nominees and a good many were successful. We do not do integrated courses at EPTA.

It is also worth noting that CTC does not do integrated courses, but this does not prevent them from gaining employement with airlines.


The good news for everyone is that the jobs market has finally started to move. Let's hope it keeps on moving.

[scroggs]

Keith, I sincerely hope you're right - on all counts.

Scroggs

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Scroggs, that really is bad news. I remember when I first started reading prune a couple of years ago, most of the advice offered was to forget Oxford and the like and go modular - less money for the same pieces of paper.

KeithW is correct that CTC currently run a modular scheme, interestingly enough in the context of this thread, it is expected to become integrated in the very near future.

[Re-Heat]

Any comments from Base Trainers on 737/A320 on the ability to cope with the course of integrated vs modular students with low hours, straight from these schools?

Would that have led any such decision on the part of the employers? I imagine that minimising the line training cost would have the largest impact on such a decision as to from where to recruit?