New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well your are well wrong there, i never paid 200 quid to be choosen to buy a service that I WANTED off any flying school. And if you bother to note I am actually flying the line. You are quite correct you are paying for a service, you are paying for all those marketing mincers to sell you the product.
When they tell you its 200 quid for the assement day just ask them I am paying cash are you wanting my 60k or what? See what the reply is.
I have never been refused training off oxford. I did modular ground school with them 4 years ago now. And was very pleased with what I payed for. In fact Mr C from the modular ground school is level first with all the ground school training I have done so far in my flying career.
The sample physics and maths paper are in my opinion are so basic a second year school student could do them. In fact the physics has 2 glaring mistakes in it which the questions are vague in the nicest sense and down right ill worded and wrong in the worst. If you fail the assement you should really consider if you should be driving a car never mind flying a plane.
now the brake down of the profit on a assesment day.
1. Staff, all on a fixed salary they would be at work anyway its all part of the job. At anyone time you will be exposed to maximum 3 people for max 1 hour each because in the great marketing book they say that if you use more than that it puts off the punter. They would get payed if the day went ahead or not. You will be there for 6 hours so 18 * 3 * 20 quid an hour is about a grand which would have been payed anyway. So anything more than 5 punters and everything is payed for even if it wasn't anyway, which it is.
2. Sim time, its a 13amp fuse, the sim is maintained on a yearly contract and gets done however many hours it does. the bloke that runs it is on point one.
3. Rooms, they have to pay for them if its full or not.
4. The ****e food that the canteen puts out which must cost maximum 1.50 per person on the day.
So I reckon increase in profit for the day is £190 per person.
Go and walk into a modular school and ask them about there courses see if they ask you for 200 quid before they will talk to you.
The most likely thing you will hear is
school " when were you thinking of starting your CPL?"
student" well next week please"
school" sorry m8 you have no chance, we have 12 students booked in for CPL and IR in the next 3 months. Next slot is early Nov but if a few of them slip it could be Dec."
student " but I need to get it done quickly"
School " sorry but we have done that before and it's really not worth the hassel, it piss's our instructors off and our current student's off and we are not willing to drop our training standards to accomadate it"
And that was a conversation I heard at my IR school by the ops monkey, maybe not word for word but the gist is there.
Do you notice the lack of well it's 200 quid to sit in a sim for 30mins and have some crap food? No its this is what we can provide when we can provide it and no we arn't going to comprise just for the sale.
And for the chap from france. Flight to Heathrow then bus up to oxford then either local bus or taxi to the airfield. Allow at least 4 hours for the trip. taxi was 4 years ago about 30 pounds on a sunday.
When they tell you its 200 quid for the assement day just ask them I am paying cash are you wanting my 60k or what? See what the reply is.
I have never been refused training off oxford. I did modular ground school with them 4 years ago now. And was very pleased with what I payed for. In fact Mr C from the modular ground school is level first with all the ground school training I have done so far in my flying career.
The sample physics and maths paper are in my opinion are so basic a second year school student could do them. In fact the physics has 2 glaring mistakes in it which the questions are vague in the nicest sense and down right ill worded and wrong in the worst. If you fail the assement you should really consider if you should be driving a car never mind flying a plane.
now the brake down of the profit on a assesment day.
1. Staff, all on a fixed salary they would be at work anyway its all part of the job. At anyone time you will be exposed to maximum 3 people for max 1 hour each because in the great marketing book they say that if you use more than that it puts off the punter. They would get payed if the day went ahead or not. You will be there for 6 hours so 18 * 3 * 20 quid an hour is about a grand which would have been payed anyway. So anything more than 5 punters and everything is payed for even if it wasn't anyway, which it is.
2. Sim time, its a 13amp fuse, the sim is maintained on a yearly contract and gets done however many hours it does. the bloke that runs it is on point one.
3. Rooms, they have to pay for them if its full or not.
4. The ****e food that the canteen puts out which must cost maximum 1.50 per person on the day.
So I reckon increase in profit for the day is £190 per person.
Go and walk into a modular school and ask them about there courses see if they ask you for 200 quid before they will talk to you.
The most likely thing you will hear is
school " when were you thinking of starting your CPL?"
student" well next week please"
school" sorry m8 you have no chance, we have 12 students booked in for CPL and IR in the next 3 months. Next slot is early Nov but if a few of them slip it could be Dec."
student " but I need to get it done quickly"
School " sorry but we have done that before and it's really not worth the hassel, it piss's our instructors off and our current student's off and we are not willing to drop our training standards to accomadate it"
And that was a conversation I heard at my IR school by the ops monkey, maybe not word for word but the gist is there.
Do you notice the lack of well it's 200 quid to sit in a sim for 30mins and have some crap food? No its this is what we can provide when we can provide it and no we arn't going to comprise just for the sale.
And for the chap from france. Flight to Heathrow then bus up to oxford then either local bus or taxi to the airfield. Allow at least 4 hours for the trip. taxi was 4 years ago about 30 pounds on a sunday.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Uni's learn't this about 10 years ago which was why all of a sudden they all started having interviews.
Mad_jock - you are talking from your other end - OAT are not in fact raking it in and barely make a profit - see their accounts if you don't believe me.
Your post is full of uninformed rumour and hearsay, and if you expect those posts to change the minds of dedicated people who have decided that their training is an investment that should ensure that they gain the best shot possible at a jet job in minimum time, then it is your loss for obstinately not believing what has been achieved rather than their loss for investing in their future.
I think that one poster's comment of only 2 from his/her Feb graduation course not having a job speaks for itself.
Since you have no idea of capital costs, I hope I don't have to explain basic economics to you in future (PS I reiterate that their profits are pants).
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes we are talking different courses and University's. Thankfully I have never studied at or worked at a Breeze block establishment (And please lets not have a debate about the current policy of pumping youngsters through degree courses for no job at the end, although it is very similar to this discussion). Please give me an example of a proffessional course who's Uni (for that subject) is in the top 5 in the country who doesn't Interview. It was learned very quickly that as soon as you increase the apparent difficulty of gaining a place not only did you get more people applied for the course but you also got a higher quality of applicant. The year we started it at the one I worked at the number of points each person had applying went up by 3-4 and the number of conditional offers accepted increased by 15%. Which meant the course instead of starting 10 low which it had for the previous 6 years started 5 over. Which is perfect because you always get about 5% drop out in the first term due homesick, not mature enough to live away from mum etc. After 2 years most of the students had better school grades than the RA's running the labs. And I don't think anyone failed the interview.
And actually I already know that I have no chance of changing the mind of a 18-24 year old. But my posts are actually directed at the parents who are going to have to stump up the rest of the money and who arn't as focused as the wannabie on I must fly whatever. If I can get them to see through the marketing BS it really doesn't matter if the wannabie thinks its a good deal. I can remember wanting to apply to the cabair sonsorships which I think involved you working as a FI for 3 years. It was quickly put to bed when i discovered that my parents house would be used as security. I didn't even need to ask to know the answer. And thank god I didn't 3 years living in a caravan.
Myself included at that age if a sponsorship deal came up that you could get you striaght into a 747 after 18 months of training but it required your sister to work in a sweat house in India making Teatowels for a year. There would still be people applying.
And I also know that OAT isn't raking it. It has to scrabble for every pound which is why they are now suddenly realising that these pesky modular types have money to spend as well.
I have in the past promoted the waypoint program. If you want the OAT on your CV I think it is a reasonably priced course. Your taught by the same instructors, you are flying the same planes, you have to stick by the same standards, your progress checks will be graded to the same level as an intergrated student. How come it costs 35K less?
And actually I already know that I have no chance of changing the mind of a 18-24 year old. But my posts are actually directed at the parents who are going to have to stump up the rest of the money and who arn't as focused as the wannabie on I must fly whatever. If I can get them to see through the marketing BS it really doesn't matter if the wannabie thinks its a good deal. I can remember wanting to apply to the cabair sonsorships which I think involved you working as a FI for 3 years. It was quickly put to bed when i discovered that my parents house would be used as security. I didn't even need to ask to know the answer. And thank god I didn't 3 years living in a caravan.
Myself included at that age if a sponsorship deal came up that you could get you striaght into a 747 after 18 months of training but it required your sister to work in a sweat house in India making Teatowels for a year. There would still be people applying.
And I also know that OAT isn't raking it. It has to scrabble for every pound which is why they are now suddenly realising that these pesky modular types have money to spend as well.
I have in the past promoted the waypoint program. If you want the OAT on your CV I think it is a reasonably priced course. Your taught by the same instructors, you are flying the same planes, you have to stick by the same standards, your progress checks will be graded to the same level as an intergrated student. How come it costs 35K less?
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jul 2006 at 09:37.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: airlineworld
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My biggest worry about the scheme is what type of employment possibility are we talking about. When they say that it´s "Unlikely" that you won´t get employed after completing the course, are they really telling the truth? Is it really difficult to not get the job?
Concerning the tests: Anybody knows anything about them? Are the maths and physics going to be difficult? What about the memory test?
Anybody from last year?
THanks! And good luck!
Concerning the tests: Anybody knows anything about them? Are the maths and physics going to be difficult? What about the memory test?
Anybody from last year?
THanks! And good luck!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well I made up my mind... been invited to Stage 2 but I won't bother going. I rather spend my 200 quid + travel costs in a few flying hours, can probably buy 3 with that money.
Such a waste 'cause passing stage 1 was a tremendous effort.... but I'll just leave it for this time. Already spent enough money with CTC, only to get told I passed all the aptitude and maths test with high marks, but because I didn't play in a team at high school they are not sure about my team work skills LOL
So I guess I won't bother spending another few hundreds to hear that sort of corporate crap again !
Such a waste 'cause passing stage 1 was a tremendous effort.... but I'll just leave it for this time. Already spent enough money with CTC, only to get told I passed all the aptitude and maths test with high marks, but because I didn't play in a team at high school they are not sure about my team work skills LOL
So I guess I won't bother spending another few hundreds to hear that sort of corporate crap again !
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North West, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Already spent enough money with CTC, only to get told I passed all the aptitude and maths test with high marks, but because I didn't play in a team at high school they are not sure about my team work skills
Out of interest, how much money it total did you pay towards CTC for the test.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EGCC4284
So why did they bother to invite to for the aptitude and maths test. At what point did they find out that you didn't play in a team at school.
Out of interest, how much money it total did you pay towards CTC for the test.
Out of interest, how much money it total did you pay towards CTC for the test.
CTC selection fee was 164 quid, plus travel and accomodation for 3 stages I reckon I spent in excess of 400.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear,
Ok. 100 hours block booked in USA/South Africa/Oz/NZ/take your pick. All for around £5k. I have been told by everyone that I know that these 2-4 weeks are some of the best of your life.
FACT: Modular gives you the same qualification, with more flying expereince, for 25k less.
Oh, and I think that of the 220 hours you mentioned above, around 40 are in the 'sim' (a fancy MSFS2004).
How much does a job prospect cost? 25k obviously.
Errm, FTE do a free assessment. I know 'cause I did it (and passed but turned them down). Just for the record, FTE are well better than OAT. They have a pool.
Thanks for the advice. What airline do you fly for agian? Somebody's been reading a glossy OAT brochure methinks.
Just to open your eyes to the industry a little, pilots can be whatever they want to be if they have 5000 hours on type. Ever worked with a Chief Captain? It's his way or the highway. Not much teamwork goes on unless he's in the mood for it.
I like the way that x3k5 and Re-Heat are offering advice on how to be a pilot to mad-jock. Who is, of course, a pilot.
EK
The OAT Modular gives 103 Flight Training Hours. The APP gives 220 hours. Feel the difference? Not that Im saying Modular courses arent good, they are just as good, but you'll need more money for more hours to bring it upto APP.. Add that money why dont you?
FACT: Modular gives you the same qualification, with more flying expereince, for 25k less.
Oh, and I think that of the 220 hours you mentioned above, around 40 are in the 'sim' (a fancy MSFS2004).
And part of the cost may be just for the extra job prospects I presume.
Nothing is free. All schools have an assessment fee. There may be a profit in it, I do not know but it is not all "pure profit".
@raviolis: Individual thinking isnt going to make you a pilot, you have to be a team player.
Just to open your eyes to the industry a little, pilots can be whatever they want to be if they have 5000 hours on type. Ever worked with a Chief Captain? It's his way or the highway. Not much teamwork goes on unless he's in the mood for it.
I like the way that x3k5 and Re-Heat are offering advice on how to be a pilot to mad-jock. Who is, of course, a pilot.
EK
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting arguments both for and against the scheme.
I put this question to the pilots out there:
Imagine you’re a "wannabe" again - would you go for this scheme?
Either
Yes, because......
or
No, because.......
I put this question to the pilots out there:
Imagine you’re a "wannabe" again - would you go for this scheme?
Either
Yes, because......
or
No, because.......
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No. I'd go full time modular, choose the school that was best for me, in the area that suited me best and offered the most cost-effective training for my finances. The people who get on this scheme will most likely go straight onto a jet, however IMHO the scheme is overpriced in the current employment situation.
If things continue the way they are going, airline entry requirements will continue to fall. By the time these guys graduate to their 757 they may well be rubbing shoulders with new entry low hour guys who paid half of what they did to get their blue book, but it's horses for courses and the best of luck to all who apply.
If things continue the way they are going, airline entry requirements will continue to fall. By the time these guys graduate to their 757 they may well be rubbing shoulders with new entry low hour guys who paid half of what they did to get their blue book, but it's horses for courses and the best of luck to all who apply.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry, but I am fed up with children posting on this forum and assuming knowledge that they patently do not - and cannot - have. X3K5 is taking an enforced rest for a week or so to allow those who are actually in the process of contracting for flying training to do so without unqualified and unwanted interruption. And, if you wish to get OAT marketing hype preached at you, I'm sure you can do so without his help - and from people who might know what they're talking about!
Any other spotters and enthusiasts take note: you may observe, but do not interrupt.
Scroggs
Any other spotters and enthusiasts take note: you may observe, but do not interrupt.
Scroggs
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's nice to hear an ex-RAF recommend going via the RAF then into commercial rather than the regular views that the RAF should be for life etc
Anyway...sorry, back on track...
Anyway...sorry, back on track...
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Glasgow
Age: 43
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many places?
Evening all,
Gratefull though I am for having pprune as an incredibly helpfull resource and having read this topic in great (far too much) detail I still can't shake off my concerns.
I've been invited to stage 2 and therefore find myself in a similar situation as what I suspect to be a fair few people on here.
So here's the clincher... Does anybody have the faintest idea how many places they will looking to fill. I strongly suspect that if there's only 6-8 places on offer that my hard earned and much needed £200 would be a total waist.
And so I'm of two minds, in my position money for a modular course is very hard to come by so I need to lay my fears to rest and get a fair idea of my chances of success. Am I gonna' regret not taking the chance?
Cheers for any info.
Sharky
Gratefull though I am for having pprune as an incredibly helpfull resource and having read this topic in great (far too much) detail I still can't shake off my concerns.
I've been invited to stage 2 and therefore find myself in a similar situation as what I suspect to be a fair few people on here.
So here's the clincher... Does anybody have the faintest idea how many places they will looking to fill. I strongly suspect that if there's only 6-8 places on offer that my hard earned and much needed £200 would be a total waist.
And so I'm of two minds, in my position money for a modular course is very hard to come by so I need to lay my fears to rest and get a fair idea of my chances of success. Am I gonna' regret not taking the chance?
Cheers for any info.
Sharky
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sharky,
I'm not eligible this year so all I can comment on was last year.
There were 12 applicants to the final stage of which 6 were required. I gather it is the same situation this year.
If you are well prepared then you have every chance of progressing and I saw recently the youngest and oldest candidates last year were 18 and 31 respectively. The first day is the standard batch of OAT tests, with some slight variations and a much higher minimum standard. You will know by the end of the day if you were successful enough to progress to the next day.
That in itself could be worth the £200 - to have reached day two is a pretty good sign and confidence booster, although to be knocked out at that stage would no doubt feel like a very poor investment of £200. The second day was good fun and the interview process nothing to be feared.
The best advice is to prepare. Think about your strengths and weakenesses, about what airlines are looking for, your involvement or knowledge of aviation and the industry and of course do consider what experiences in your life you can use to demonstrate your abilities. Get comfortable with making your points clearly and positively and you will walk in to the interviews and other aspects with more confidence.
Despite all that has been said here, it is a golden opportunity. Given the costs of aviation training, £200 spent now is a drop in the pond and given the choice between 3 hours flying time or this selection process I would recommend the later. At least if it doesn't work out, you'll know where you stand.
I'm not eligible this year so all I can comment on was last year.
There were 12 applicants to the final stage of which 6 were required. I gather it is the same situation this year.
If you are well prepared then you have every chance of progressing and I saw recently the youngest and oldest candidates last year were 18 and 31 respectively. The first day is the standard batch of OAT tests, with some slight variations and a much higher minimum standard. You will know by the end of the day if you were successful enough to progress to the next day.
That in itself could be worth the £200 - to have reached day two is a pretty good sign and confidence booster, although to be knocked out at that stage would no doubt feel like a very poor investment of £200. The second day was good fun and the interview process nothing to be feared.
The best advice is to prepare. Think about your strengths and weakenesses, about what airlines are looking for, your involvement or knowledge of aviation and the industry and of course do consider what experiences in your life you can use to demonstrate your abilities. Get comfortable with making your points clearly and positively and you will walk in to the interviews and other aspects with more confidence.
Despite all that has been said here, it is a golden opportunity. Given the costs of aviation training, £200 spent now is a drop in the pond and given the choice between 3 hours flying time or this selection process I would recommend the later. At least if it doesn't work out, you'll know where you stand.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Full time modular, it's not about comparing like with like, it's about comparing the various routes available to the SAME QUALIFICATION. Do yourself a favour, save the money and put it down on a mortgage once you get your first job! I've have said it again and again, we are not in the post 9/11 times anymore; there are MANY jobs going now and even though it is still difficult with minimal hours, the requirements are starting to be relaxed as the demand starts to (slowly) outstrip the supply, especially for anyone with ANY commercial experience.
Well done Scroggs, I had got to the point of giving up trying to put a credible argument against the blatantly obvious 'indoctrination' of a few posters.
And for the record, I am captain with Thomsonfly.
PP
I've have said it again and again, we are not in the post 9/11 times anymore; there are MANY jobs going now and even though it is still difficult with minimal hours, the requirements are starting to be relaxed as the demand starts to (slowly) outstrip the supply, especially for anyone with ANY commercial experience.Well done Scroggs, I had got to the point of giving up trying to put a credible argument against the blatantly obvious 'indoctrination' of a few posters.
And for the record, I am captain with Thomsonfly.
PP